Mansa Musa = my archenemy

[turnip]

Yeah, he just declared war on me while pleased. And stayed pleased until I sacked one of his cities, wherein he turned.....cautious. The guy's a freak.
Like I said, back from my thread on my OCC game:

Originally posted by turnip:
Then, from where the sun now stands, Mansa Musa shall henceforth be my enemy. He shall pay dearly in all games further played, and shall be Public Enemy No.1, only to be surpassed by that Terrible Abomination in the Eyes of all that is Good and Pure that is known as Hyaena Catapult, I mean, Huayna Capac.

 

[Racsoviale]

yeah I agree. In my experience he either A: becomes a powerhouse through techwhoring or B: vassalizes to montezuma and feeds him techs through techwhoring. I always do what I can to get someone to attack him if he is too for away for me to reach. This ofcoarse then unfortunately leads to result B, and we're back at the root of the problem.
He is an annoying dick

 

[salty mud]

Mansa ALWAYS gets the lead in my games, thorugh techs alone. How he researches that fast is beyond me.

 

[Xellos-_^]

Financial trait + 10% more gold form Mint.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

MM lacks the handicap many AIs have - he is willing to trade techs, with virtually no cap and with people he doesn't like. He favors religion and culture though, so he can be had throughout the game by concentrated military.

The bigger problems is when he gets too much easy land (tech speed AND enough advanced troops to be annoying) or feeds a warmonger. He does tend to make games more edgy but I'd much rather see him as the first AI meet rather than toku or shaka.

The creative AIs are the most problematic generally, such as cathy/sury/gilgamesh/etc. Also very good if left alone is Joao, because he will get BIG. Bismark is deceptive because he starts a little slow. However, he's warlike enough that if he starts near the true peacemongers or has a better start than a warmonger, he'll beat them and gain steam (he uses way more siege than most other AIs...it's his military unit favored in XML).

Anybody is dangerous with enough early land though.

 

[wickedcherub]

I'm playing my first game on Prince as Gilgamesh (first time not playing as Zara Y) and it's just me and Mansa on an island. I control at least 75% of the island, if not more and half his cities are smaller than size 5, and yet he is still teching just as fast as I am, if not faster because he doesn't care who he trades with. Asoka is on the other island, vassalised to Augustus, he only as 3 cities and he's teching just as fast as I am too!!

I'm coming to the home straight now - I really wanted to win a Space Race without going to war at all whatsoever. Mansa's been Friendly all this time but he's just moved to Free Religion which changes matters and I'm not positive he won't declare on me at Pleased.

I'm hoping that when it comes down to building the ship, I have more hammers than he does. I really could have specialised my cities better. I hope Zara doesn't declare on me.

 

[Xellos-_^]

MM won't declare at please, you will have to piss him pretty badly for him to invade. But yes, i would invade him anyway before he gets bigger.

 

[wickedcherub]

MM won't declare at please, you will have to piss him pretty badly for him to invade. But yes, i would invade him anyway before he gets bigger.

He can't get any bigger because it's the early 1800s and all the land is taken up. Half his cities are in tundra/on the ice and can't get much bigger unless he builds cereal mills (i already have sid's sushi).

And I really really don't want to war at all in this game. I want to prove to my husband that it's possible to win consistently on Prince without warring *at all*. (waste of the Vultures though, really.)

 

[TheMeInTeam]

MM won't declare at please, you will have to piss him pretty badly for him to invade. But yes, i would invade him anyway before he gets bigger.

Careful now, this is false. MM will declare at pleased. His warattitude for pleased is 90, not 100. He can also be bribed vs those he's pleased with.

Somewhat surprising, this warattitude is the same as with Shaka for the pleased disposition. The difference is their unitprobs and tendencies toward different strategies (shaka is set to military, MM tends toward religion or gold).

MM also builds as many units as izzy or joao, though tends to be smaller and the improvements he favors makes the overall appearance of troops weaker.

Still, he's not someone you'd call "trustworthy", although he IS consistent in that he'll whore himself in any way for tech ----> trade with enemies, attack people, backstab friends. The guy <3's his shiny techs.

 

[wickedcherub]

Careful now, this is false. MM will declare at pleased. His warattitude for pleased is 90, not 100. He can also be bribed vs those he's pleased with.

Still, he's not someone you'd call "trustworthy", although he IS consistent in that he'll whore himself in any way for tech ----> trade with enemies, attack people, backstab friends. The guy <3's his shiny techs.

The only other good techer in the game is Asoka, who is a vassal. So he won't be able to bribe Mansa because he's a vassal right?

But if Asoka gives all his techs to his master, Augustus, and Augustus could bribe Mansa?

Ugh. This no war game is tough.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

Ugh. This no war game is tough.

But if you make it, it's something to be proud of. It's pretty hard to do.

(Well, for me it is... )

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The only other good techer in the game is Asoka, who is a vassal. So he won't be able to bribe Mansa because he's a vassal right?

But if Asoka gives all his techs to his master, Augustus, and Augustus could bribe Mansa?

Ugh. This no war game is tough.

AFAIK vassals can make bribes...but AIs will only do that if at war already fortunately.

Augustus could do it, too.

Don't forget that with enough gold, AIs can be brought to war without tech. It often costs 1000's in the mid-late game, but some high level AIs have that on hand, so be careful. Mansa also does have a chance of just rolling a war decision, too.

He's not that strong though.

 

[braindrain]

ya mansa is a tough opponent in a no war game, but is also tough to deal with with war. my first impulse is to destroy him asap, but them skirmishers are a pain! darn near invinceable on a hilly walled city with any kind of culture. By the time cats come along he usually already has a healthy tech lead and the war tends to be long drawn out struggle.

I try to box him in if possible and play nice. it is nice to have a fella you can count on to trade techs with

 

[DigitalBoy]

One time I had Mansa Musa get horse archers in the BCs while I was trying to muster up some units for a rush (well, not a rush, I'm not that fast, but a relatively early war). I used world builder to see what economic advantage he had that would let him tech up to HBR that early, only to find a handful of cottages (couldn't have possibly been more than six). In retrospect, he must have gotten it from a goody hut, but the paranoid part of me likes to think it was the uber cottages.

 

[Kierkegaard]

I like Mansa. He's always trading with me, giving me techs and almost never attacks me. (that mainly because I've a bigger army than Mansa).

Imo if you keep your army big enough, don't worry about attacks. If they happen use siege and beat them to hell!

 

[Iranon]

Just be thankful that Mansa Musa doesn't drown you in Skirmishers from the get go. The first non-unique unit that can beat them cost-effectively is the knight...

Generally, I try to use him as a trade partner until I'm in the lead, after which he needs to die lest his techwhoring allow everyone else to catch up. So all in all, Musa has far more reason to complain about me than the other way round

 

[Bei1052]

I, too, have always wondered how he manages to tech so fast, even when he lacks cottages and is surrounded by desert/tundra. It doesn't make any sense.

 

[Peteyboy]

Generally I like MM in my games - he's easy to trade tech with - although can be frustrating at giving mass techs away, is rarely strong enough to be a major threat, but more importantly I've had him in about 7 of my last 10 games, and not once has he gone for a Space Race win - even though in 1 game he had me beat for techs and would likely have won. I find he always goes for Cultural - which is moderately dangerous but a quick hit & run on a city and the game is comfortable (+ Spies can really own some decent buildings)

Plus I tend to like the fact he can be bribed into wars - can often help either distract an enemy or I've even been known to throw him into battle if i'm not ready and someone is about to DOW me.

Funnily enough perhaps his biggest nuisance is the people constatly asking me to cease trading with him or 'you have traded with our worst enemies' as loads of AI hate him.

But overall I tend to like him in my games

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Just be thankful that Mansa Musa doesn't drown you in Skirmishers from the get go. The first non-unique unit that can beat them cost-effectively is the knight...

Generally, I try to use him as a trade partner until I'm in the lead, after which he needs to die lest his techwhoring allow everyone else to catch up. So all in all, Musa has far more reason to complain about me than the other way round

Any AI pushing a concentrated, constant force of archers onto the player on high levels would probably slow his expansion and tech rate enough that he'd lose even with the far less cost-effective stock type of archer. Especially if they pillage.

 

[theskibum]

I don't hate Mansa per se. He is quite usful as a trade partner if you research different tech path from him. You can become quite advanced. I don't ever accept trades tech for tech from him on his turn though, because he will whore your tech around immediately. Its best to wait until your turn, see what Mansa will give you for your new tech if you are ready to trade, then trade it to all the other AIs who have something useful in exchange. Even trade his tech that he gave you around that turn too.

My strategy when playing agains MM is to out whore the whore. He tends to not expand as quickly as he could in favor of research, so if he is your neighbor, you can box him in peacefully and let him be a secondary research funnel for you until the industrial age. Then wipe him out or vassalize him.

I do want to know if anyone with more knowledge of the coding can tell if MM is given some bonus to research the rest of the AIs don't get though. In my current Prince game, MM has 4 cities, yes 4, and the map is full. He is the tech leader on me and Pacal by 3 techs. I have 9 cities as Cyrus and Pacal has 12. MM's land is decent for cottages, but he doesn't have that many (12 maybe not all towns yet either). I have 15 cottages, 8 of which are villages and the rest hamlets.

Yes I know MM is financial and gets his mint with metal casting, but does lack of expanding really make this kind of teching possible? I have never played as MM so I am not sure if I could pull it off or not, but I like the FIN trait and I can't even tech that quickly with Elizabeth early on unless I get a phenomenal cottagable area.