Materialism and Consciousness.

[Perfection]

The point is not does it make a difference the point is if we do an experiment, on a small area of a cell such as the mitochondrial process we have to take the quantum into account.

No you don't have to take quantum uncertainty into account at that level. The effect is so miniscle as to be unnoticable.

DNA does it and I'm afraid you'll have to take my word for that. We can for the most part ignore quantum effects but we can't ignore the fact that these effects might be a trick of perception in itself and might not even exist in which case from a philosophical perspective at least everything we see may be illusion at the quantum level.

I see that no more plausible than everything at the macroscale being an illusion

All I was saying is if your talking philosophy it's easy to insert the quantum into it and to derive a theory, therefore since this thread is a philosophical one it's apt to use philosophical arguments. Also I can say that philosophically speaking I might be right in that it effects science too but it is philsoophy. I don't expect you to say oh yes science is worng, but I would like some acknowledgement that th ephilosophical argument has at least some merit?

Not really, I don't accpet your ultimatum of determinism
and free will.

QM effects a couple of hundred atoms actually also, also matters then too

Quantum Uncertaintity doesn't, though (which is really what you eant to be looking at)

 

[CartesianFart]

If i can use my dna by the new method of practice of nanobiology and nanotechnology respectively,i can make myself habitually punch my self on my forehead on regular interval of 5 min apiece.I can always be unconcious every other15 min[it probably takes 3 hits to do it by way of how i punch and force that i am familiar with]with a receeding half hour of knockout sleep.

 

[Perfection]

no because I said at the start I can disprove predeteminism and that is what I have done. And by doing so I have proved free will?

Sorry but you've lost me there?

Well, it seems you equate disprove predeteminism with proving free will.

I don't buy it. The times when you attempted to demonstrate the relationship, it seems that you assumed free will.

 

[Sidhe]

Well you may not buy it but then you don't understand the argument, or wont one of the two ,understand the argument itself it is meant to show that fate is what determines our lives and everything is already set(predeterminism) or that free will determines our lives and therefore nothing is preset, if you don't understand the concepts then you cant understand that proving one disproves the other so it's kind of like talking ot a brick wall really. Like I said go look stuff up, atm you seem to be talking off the top of your head which whilst amusing at first is now becoming annoying.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I spent the last hour looking at New Scientist and searching for NASA, DNA and quantum articles and came up empty. Do you know the year?

 

[Perfection]

Well you may not buy it but then you don't understand the argument, or wont one of the two

Or perhaps three, see a flaw in it..

,understand the argument itself it is meant to show that fate is what determines our lives and everything is already set(predeterminism) or that free will determines our lives and therefore nothing is preset,

or neither determines what happens. I believe in niether fate nor free will.

if you don't understand the concepts then you cant understand that proving one disproves the other so it's kind of like talking ot a brick wall really.

I don't think there are any faults in my understanding, but if there are feel free to poin them

Like I said go look stuff up, atm you seem to be talking off the top of your head which whilst amusing at first is now becoming annoying.

Why should I look up things when you make outrageous claims like the uncertaintity principle being important to consider when measuring a mitochondrion? Do I have to refute every misunderstanding you have about quantum physics? I might be a lowly physics undergrad with an incomplete understanding of the basic ideas of QM, but your picture of QM is just plain silly!

 

[El_Machinae]

To be clear, I wasn't stating that Uncertainty was important to free will. I was stating that the randomness of QM effects was important to brain function (order of neuron firing)

 

[Birdjaguar]

the argument itself it is meant to show that fate is what determines our lives and everything is already set(predeterminism) or that free will determines our lives and therefore nothing is preset...

This argument is like saying everything is either good or evil. There is no basis for saying that the actual universe is only one or the other. Evidence shows it is a combination of choice and predeterminism. To try and prove that one of two incorrrect answers is true is ...what?... _____________. (fill in the blank).

 

[Perfection]

To be clear, I wasn't stating that Uncertainty was important to free will. I was stating that the randomness of QM effects was important to brain function (order of neuron firing)

Which is why I'm arguing against Sidhe, not you. You seem to base your idea on emotions which is a completly different arguement.

 

[Sidhe]

fate Audio pronunciation of "fate" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ft)
n.

1.
1. The supposed force, principle, or power that predetermines events.
2. The inevitable events predestined by this force.
2. A final result or consequence; an outcome.
3. Unfavorable destiny; doom.
4. Fates Greek & Roman Mythology. The three goddesses, Clotho, Lachesis, and Atropos, who control human destiny. Used with the.


free will
n.

1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.


Now please will you tell me how one can exist and the other can exist at the same time?

Honestly dude, you really are just being blinkered and ignorant? SOrry but I have to say it this is the typical I am right and you are wrong mentality of the ignorant. I believe against reason or logic that I am right and am to lazy to look into why I am wrong?

 

[Perfection]

Sidhe, was that directed at me or Birdjaguar?

 

[Sidhe]

Which is why I'm arguing against Sidhe, not you. You seem to base your idea on emotions which is a completly different arguement.

Actually even when I posted machinaes quotes you ignored them as far as I can tell your arguing with yourself not me?

 

[Birdjaguar]

fate Audio pronunciation of "fate" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ft)
n.

1.
1. The supposed force, principle, or power that predetermines events.
2. The inevitable events predestined by this force.
2. A final result or consequence; an outcome.
3. Unfavorable destiny; doom.
4. Fates Greek & Roman Mythology. The three goddesses, Clotho, Lachesis, and Atropos, who control human destiny. Used with the.


free will
n.

1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.


Now please will you tell me how one can exist and the other can exist at the same time?

Honestly dude, you really are just being blinkered and ignorant? SOrry but I have to say it this is the typical I am right and you are wrong mentality of the ignorant. I believe against reason or logic that I am right and am to lazy to look into why I am wrong?

I will grow old and die, regardless of what I choose to do today, unless those choices kill me quicker.

 

[Sidhe]

Sidhe, was that directed at me or Birdjaguar?

To be honest your both equally non conversant in the definitions of the words so either frankly neither of you seem able to grasp what free will is or what predeterminism so both of you are coming off as pretty lacking in any logical argument?

 

[Sidhe]

I will grow old and die, regardless of what I choose to do today, unless those choices kill me quicker.

What does that have to do with the argument of your life being governed by free will or determinism?

Throwing absolutes at the argument is pretty lame? Will your life be one of free choice or are you directed to a chosen path or fate to follow blindly? |Not will you die? I mean I could say scientists might find a cure for ageing and then you'd have even less of a case but frankly it's so beside the point I wont even bother?

 

[Perfection]

To be honest your both equally non conversant in the definitions of the words so either frankly neither of you seem able to grasp what free will is or what predeterminism so both of you are coming off as pretty lacking in any logical argument?

Well, I've known Birdjaguar at this forum for a long time and have argued with him on a number of occasions and have read a few of his arguements here in this thread. I must say that slinging the term illogical at him comes off as rather incorrect.

 

[Sidhe]

So because he is logical normally I am not allowed to criticise him when he shows a lack of logic or reasoned argument, is that what you are saying?

 

[Perfection]

So because he is logical normally I am not allowed to criticise him when he shows a lack of logic or reasoned argument is that what you are saying?

You're allowed to criticise, just don't let that be your only criticism. Birdjaguar correctly shows that even if there is free will there is limits on it that can be construed as fate, and you seem to keep yelling at me that you can't have fate and free will when I argue for neither.

Frankly you're the one who is coming off a tad illogical...

 

[CartesianFart]

Well, I've known Birdjaguar at this forum for a long time and have argued with him on a number of occasions and have read a few of his arguements here in this thread. I must say that slinging the term illogical at him comes off as rather incorrect.

I don't know about this previous quote of Birdjaquar:

I will grow old and die, regardless of what I choose to do today, unless those choices kill me quicker.

It doesnt correlate to the previous discussions that for some apparent reason that Sidhe was directing.Birdjaquar have jump to another train of thoughts that happen to simultanously gone the opposite direction away from us infinitively.Are you hitching a ride with him?

 

[punkbass2000]

I will grow old and die, regardless of what I choose to do today, unless those choices kill me quicker.

Good example. In a narrow immediate sense, there is no question that one feels choices are being made by one, at least for me. As you get further away from the moment, the lesss obvious the answer, and yours crystallizes the extreme. But even the near future is fraught with free will contradictions. Can I choose what I will do tomorrow? Yes, to a degree. I could not go to work, if I wanted. I could have pizza if I wanted. Nonetheless, though such short term plans usually and perhaps even probably come to fruition, there is no such guarantee.