Materialism and Consciousness.

[Perfection]

It's a classic example of how egos get in the way, you can't admit your wrong so you try and play with words to say that that is not what you meant or the defenitions are flawed or that you stated something that was wrong even though they know precisely what you said earlier.

When did I say that fate and free will were possible (other than the instance where I played devil's advocate for Birdjaguar)? You show me that and I'll say you win.

The botom line is it's not as simple as fate vs. free will.

It's like they say, never argue with a fool, most people wont be able to tell the difference

I'm not making you post. You keep claiming that you're not gonna argue with me and yet you continue posting over and over agian.

 

[Sidhe]

@Sidhe: I attribute my opposition to your position on my inability and unwillingness to operate within the rules of philosphical discussion and nothing more.

There are no hard and fast rules except you have to back up arguments with at least some sort of logic and not just say I disagree like that's the argument done and dusted?

 

[Birdjaguar]

Don't you know that true philosophers are more linguistic driven mathematicians.You can be surprised what have been developed in linguistics in the past 50 years.Alot of language theraphy to try to be more less ambiguous in

I think that is why I find it inherently uninteresting. If it actually explained real things, I would like it better.

 

[CartesianFart]

Speak for yourself PB; Hell I'm a mystic.

You can be amazed that monks,priest,mystics,or theologians can be ascribe as philosophers.Kinda what punkbass2000 is quite fond of saying,""one or the other",or something within that context.

 

[Sidhe]

When did I say that fate and free will were possible (other than the instance where I played devil's advocate for Birdjaguar)? You show me that and I'll say you win.

The botom line is it's not as simple as fate vs. free will.
I'm not making you post. You keep claiming that you're not gonna argue with me and yet you continue posting over and over agian.

What isn't sorry you lost me about a hundred posts back, what are the othe factors in materialism? that's the problem you argue that fate and free will can exist together then you say I don't believe either are part of the argument, but you don't say why? And then you probably will say well anything really I find it hard to follow anything you say since it seems to be based on a lack of logic and imprecise terminology?

 

[punkbass2000]

Kinda what punkbass2000 is quite fond of saying,""one or the other",or something within that context.

I don't recall being fond of saying that

 

[CartesianFart]

I think that is why I find it inherently uninteresting. If it actually explained real things, I would like it better.

Well then you will always not only confuse on the real because of your lack of faith that you can acheive what is not ambiguously vague.

 

[Perfection]

that's the problem you argue that fate and free will can exist together then you say I don't believe either are part of the argument, but you don't say why?

I never said they exist together (besides as a play of Devil's advocate for Birdjaguar), I said neither exist. Free will and fate are both fales premises.

 

[El_Machinae]

Can you prove that you don't choose to perform an action?

I can see how they're unprovable, but not how they're false

 

[CartesianFart]

I never said they exist together (besides as a play of Devil's advocate for Birdjaguar), I said neither exist. Free will and fate are both fales premises.

So you admit that you were jumping on a train of thought with Birdjaguar so in order to oppose Sidhe remarks?Taking sides on one individual in favor to mask your way into arguing the other individual?

 

[Sidhe]

I never said they exist together (besides as a play of Devil's advocate for Birdjaguar), I said neither exist. Free will and fate are both fales premises.

Yeah you've lost me there too I'm afraid? What

 

[Perfection]

Can you prove that you don't choose to perform an action?

Well if my thought processes are governed by physical phenomena instead of a dualistic soul then isn't it true that my "choices" are merely the result of the collective action of my constitutuents and not the result of some "free will"?

 

[Sidhe]

Can you prove that you don't choose to perform an action?

I can see how they're unprovable, but not how they're false

That's why it's a philosophical argument and not a scientific one

 

[Perfection]

Yeah you've lost me there too I'm afraid? What

Free will doesn't exist beause we are controlled by physical phenomena, fate doesn't exist because the universe is probabilistic. Get it?

 

[Sidhe]

Well if my thought processes are governed by physical phenomena instead of a dualistic soul then isn't it true that my "choices" are merely the result of the collective action of my constitutuents and not the result of some "free will"?

So you are saying what exactly that your constituents mean you have no ability to affect your constituents? Or that you believe you are the victim of biology and this is what exactly? Sounds like fate? What governs your constituents? is it the decisions and actions of your parents or is it your own choices, do you have the ability to govern how your constituents work and what they do or do they govern you? So what are you saying exactly that biology governs your will? Do you not believe you have the ability to determine how you affect the world and in turn theat leads you to have the ability to change or to grow, or are you saying only the biological plays a part and that conciousness has no effect on this? Are you sayin we are preprogramed by selfish genes and have no will to overcome our actions or that we are predriven by our genes and there is no freedom of action or are you saying that we have free will and we develop howver we chose? You can't have your cake and eat it which is why the definition of free will and fate are the only two positions, there is either one or the other? You either accept that you have free will and can control your life in which case nothing you do is predetermined as such? Or you accept that your actions are governed simply by biology, if you have predetermined behaviour then you are a slave to that behaviour, if you can change that behaviour even slightly then you have free will and there is no predetermined fate for your body?

Perfection.

The terms are fine in any discussion, you can't just dismiss them because you feel like it? I'll throw hundreds of years of philosophy in the bin because I am somehow bigger smarter and better than them cause I can alter the parameters? Whenever it suits me

 

[WillJ]

[Edit: The top of this post is directed at Perf's last post.]

Note that "controlled by physical phenomena" = "humans can explain it."

So apparently having a free will means having a mysterious will. How wonderful that would be.

I prefer the school of thought (which Ayatollah So directed me toward a while ago) that recognizes free will as perfectly compatible with determinism and QM-esque probabilitism. [see "Compatibilism," http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism] Your will is "free" when your actions are a result of your own desires. A person making you do something through coercion is a violation of this, not your desires being the result of neural activity. Makes more sense to me, and it has the added bonus of actually making "free will" a good thing, by golly.



[Edit] Note that I also disagree with Sidhe. Randomness in your decisions doesn't make your will free.
I agree that, in most situations, we have a free will, but probabilistic quantum mechanics has nothing to do with it.

Oh, and thank you Sidhe for that fascinating link. I'll comment on it when I'm done reading it.

 

[Perfection]

So you are saying what exactly that your constituents mean you have no ability to affect your constituents?

Only when my constitutuents do so

Or that you believe you are the victim of biology and this is what exactly?

Victim sounds so negative! I'm a gift of the universe!

Sounds like fate?

Fate has all that predestination crap, which I don't believe to be correct

What governs your constituents?

Physics

is it the decisions and actions of your parents or is it your own choices, do you have the ability to govern how your constituents work and what they do or do they govern you?

Biology governs me So what are you saying exactly that biology governs your will?

yep

Do you not believe you have the ability to determine how you affect the world and in turn theat leads you to have the ability to change or to grow, or are you saying only the biological plays a part and that conciousness has no effect on this?

My conciousness is biological...

Are you sayin we are preprogramed by selfish genes and have no will to overcome our actions or that we are predriven by our genes and there is no freedom of action or are you saying that we have free will and we develop howver we chose?

Niether genes environment and all that stuff

You can't have your cake and eat it which is why the definition of free will and fate are the only two positions, there is either one or the other?

What about there not being a cake, or throwing the cake on the ground?

You either accept that you have free will and can control your life in which case nothing you do is predetermined as such? Or you accept that your actions are governed simply by biology, if you have predetermined behaviour then you are a slave to that behaviour, if you can change that behaviour even slightly then you have free will and there is no predetermined fate for your body?

But I say it's not predetermined, and I have no say!

Perfection.

Hey, I'm not making you argue, you can leave at any time!

The terms are fine in any discussion, you can't just dismiss them because you feel like it? I'll throw hundreds of years of philosophy in the bin because I am somehow bigger smarter and better than them cause I can alter the parameters? Whenever it suits me

Do I sense sarcasm?

 

[Sidhe]

Only when my constitutuents do so
Victim sounds so negative! I'm a gift of the universe!Fate has all that predestination crap, which I don't believe to be correct Physics yep My conciousness is biological... Niether genes environment and all that stuff What about there not being a cake, or throwing the cake on the ground? But I say it's not predetermined, and I have no say!

Hey, I'm not making you argue, you can leave at any time!

Do I sense sarcasm?

Yes when you argue against hundreds of years of philosophy based on personal opinion I guess there is a hint of sarcasm, your still not making any sense, but then you don't get the definitions

 

[Perfection]

Yes when you argue against hundreds of years of philosophy based on personal opinion I guess there is a hint of sarcasm, your still not making any sense, but then you don't get the definitions

I get the definitions, it's just that neither accurately discribes reality.

 

[Sidhe]

I get the definitions, it's just that neither accurately discribes reality.

That's your opinion and frankly I'm kind of glad it isn't shared by the great philosophers and thinkers of our time, they saw no need to poo poo the ideas, the fact that you do is entirely your look out