Materialism and Consciousness.

[Birdjaguar]

Spot on! I think Birdjaguar is falling a bit into this trap.

I excel at that particular skill.

 

[CartesianFart]

That works for me too.

Since you are responding of what i said and agreeing with it

It wasn't volition that guided me,but predetermined 'reason' to choose rightly

Doesn't it risk yourself on being included in this.So ergo,you must be wrong.

But since both you and perfection can't be right, you must be wrong. Ergo, people can be predetermined to be wrong.

People are all wrong?Care to elaborate on how did you come up a such grandious notion of a universal meaninglessness.

 

[cgannon64]

To El Machinae: (Goddamn this thread is moving too fast!)

This doesn't mean that life can't go wrong, and kill itself: it just means that, generally, it won't. Which is, of course, true - most people don't sacrifice themselves in war, or burn themselves up in protest.

But anyway, speaking from my personal viewpoint: I do think you're on to something here. Irrational actions aren't incompatible with materialist philosophy, but they're a big black mark on it until they are expained. How exactly the urge for self-sacrifice could ever be victorious over the urge for self-preservation is mysterious without free will, although it isn't necessarily unexplainable...

EDIT: By the way, I'd just like to point out how strangely this thread has turned out. By some odd twist, I've gone from trying to point out a hole in the materialist argument to defending a particular aspect of it. Of course, I only do this to argue that, should this aspect be true (which I think it is, if you accept the rest of materialism), the philosophy is disastrous. But instead I feel like I'm championing it...

 

[punkbass2000]

Spot on! I think Birdjaguar is falling a bit into this trap.

Yeah, but they're baiting him a bit Besides, I've known him to relish debate, and you have give a little to get a little.

 

[Perfection]

But anyway, speaking from my personal viewpoint: I do think you're on to something here. Irrational actions aren't incompatible with materialist philosophy, but they're a big black mark on it until they are expained. How exactly the urge for self-sacrifice could ever be victorious over the urge for self-preservation is mysterious without free will, although it isn't necessarily unexplainable...

Irrational actions are compatible with materialist philosophy. Materialists understand that humans do not always try to meet their needs in rational ways because they are often illogical.

 

[Perfection]

Learned behavior. With time and control I could convince you to "eat poop" and enjoyt it.

But I do that already

 

[cgannon64]

Irrational actions are compatible with materialist philosophy. Materialists understand that humans do not always try to meet their needs in rational ways because they are often illogical.

I said that it's not incompatible. My point was that materialism is incomplete until it can explain why this happens, since it is counterintuitive.

(Hey, maybe that will finally get us back to the original point of this thread! Of course not - this is CFC. )

 

[El_Machinae]

Oh, I'm trying to see if Free Will is compatible with materialism.

 

[Perfection]

I said that it's not incompatible. My point was that materialism is incomplete until it can explain why this happens, since it is counterintuitive.

Materialism is always incomplete because there is so so much to explain, but I believe that of all philosophies it has the potential to explain the most.

 

[Birdjaguar]

But I do that already

God it was so easy. I was sure I'd need at least a few days.

 

[cgannon64]

Materialism is always incomplete because there is so so much to explain, but I believe that of all philosophies it has the potential to explain the most.

May we then add this to the list of things materialism has failed to explain?

(I think this is a teeny bit less important than the one I brought up in the opening post - since that one, apparently, will never be solved by materialism, while this one could conceivably be, with enough knowledge of the mind.)

Oh, I'm trying to see if Free Will is compatible with materialism.

I know. But notice how you've gone to decidedly unscientific means to do this! Your arguments aren't invalid, but they'd be a strange addition to the materialist philosophy - kind-of like a wacky add-on that is desperately needed but is also out of place...

 

[El_Machinae]

Well, every world view has a premise that cannot be proven ...

 

[punkbass2000]

What if my world view has no premise?

 

[cgannon64]

Yes, but that is usually the foundation, on which the rest is built. In this case, it would be a leap of faith towards the end; indeed, the final step.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Since you are responding of what i said and agreeing with it
Doesn't it risk yourself on being included in this. So ergo,you must be wrong.

People are all wrong? Care to elaborate on how did you come up a such grandious notion of a universal meaninglessness.

Here is a short answer from the Sufi poet Hafiz:

I follow Barefoot

I long for You so much
I follow barefoot Your frozen tracks

That are high in the mountains
That I know are years old.

I long for You so much
I have even begun to travel
Where I have never been before.

Hafiz, there is no one in this world
Who is not looking for God.

Everyone is trudging along
With as much dignity, courage And style

As they possibly
Can.

We are all seekers; we are all on the path. Our journeys are personal and individual. Right and wrong have nothing to do with it. Kindness lightens everyone's load.

 

[Perfection]

God it was so easy. I was sure I'd need at least a few days.

Hey, you're not getting credit for it, bucko. I did it out of my own free will.

May we then add this to the list of things materialism has failed to explain?

No, materialism doesn't fail to explain it. It's just that the explaination is incomplete because the explination is science and science is incomplete.

 

[cgannon64]

So, at the moment, materialism fails to explain it...

But anyway, if I am allowed to bring this back to the original point, is it forseeable that materialism can every explain why consciousness exists?

 

[El_Machinae]

Sure - the answer is 'maybe'. We'll know more when we can examine AI

(edit: I assume you mean "how" it exists, since science never answers "why")

 

[CartesianFart]

Here is a short answer from the Sufi poet Hafiz:

Since you like to play with poetry,here is one of my favorite.Kinda of the opposite.

THE DESTRUCTION OF SENNACHERIB, first published in 1815
The Assyrian came down like the wolf on the fold,
And his cohorts were gleaming in purple and gold;
And the sheen of their spears was like stars on the sea,
When the blue wave rolls nightly on deep Galilee.

Like the leaves of the forest when Summer is green,
That host with their banners at sunset were seen:
Like the leaves of the forest when Autumn hath blown,
That host on the morrow lay withered and strown.

For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast,
And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed;
And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill,
And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!

And there lay the steed with his nostril all wide,
But through it there rolled not the breath of his pride;
And the foam of his gasping lay white on the turf,
And cold as the spray of the rock-beating surf.

And there lay the rider distorted and pale,
With the dew on his brow, and the rust on his mail:
And the tents were all silent, the banners alone,
The lances unlifted, the trumpet unblown.

And the widows of Ashur are loud in their wail,
And the idols are broke in the temple of Baal;
And the might of the Gentile, unsmote by the sword,
Hath melted like snow in the glance of the Lord!

-Lord Byron

Gotta love romantic but illtempered aristocrats.

We are all seekers; we are all on the path. Our journeys are personal and individual. Right and wrong have nothing to do with it.Kindness lightens everyone's load.

Kindness will get you eaten by bears.I rather walk in the path alone with a shotgun rather prostrating to my opponent.

 

[Perfection]

So, at the moment, materialism fails to explain it...

Well, it has partial explinations, and those partial explinations are better than any duelist explination

But anyway, if I am allowed to bring this back to the original point, is it forseeable that materialism can every explain why consciousness exists?

I don't think anything can explain why something exists, I believe only how can be truely explained.