From what I understand, it's not the indians who executed the defensless settlers, but the MormonsHomie said:
Matt's Mormon Thread
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Homie
Anti-Lefty
Ok, I read it again, and probably you are right. It was still completely immoral no matter who did it.
silver 2039
Deity
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Are you lot the people that go door to door and try to convert people? If so you're bloody annyoing and turning more people off than "saving" their "souls"
Stapel said:
well, i dont think the church has any special purpose in Zoetermeer, (there's nothing we're doing there that we're not doing everywhere else)
those fellows with the white shirts and ties are your friendly neighborhood missioinaries. At some point, one might end up knocking on your door
Homie said:Where are you going to be a Missionary? I went on a short Missionary trip to Fiji, which is where I met some mormons. Me and my team actually lived really close to a mormon temple, it looked pretty spectacular. Me and a buddy from the team went and played basketball on the hoop outside in their school courtyard, but they came and told us to leave. But it was their property so they had every right to do so.
i dont actually get to pick. Wherever they need me I guess.
Neonanocyborgasm
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I find these threads funny, but I'm going to throw my 2 cents of what I know.
Most of Mormon theology is, at least superficially, similar to Christian fundamentalist theology. Smith, after all, grew up in communities that had similar churches, so he would've been well exposed to the stuff. However, what's amusing is the nature of the way in which the religion was revealed.
Revealed religions include Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. They have a legendary origin in which the tenets of the religion are revealed from a divine source. In Islam, for example, it was when the Archangel Gabriel came to Mohammed. Mormonism is also a revealed religion. It is claimed that J. Smith received several documents, in the form of golden plates, from the angel Moroni, which were written in ancient Egyptien hieroglyphs. Smith also received two magical translation stones with which to decipher the text. This all occured about 1830 in upstate NY, in the town of Palmyra.
Although at the time, Egyptian hieroglyphs had been translated (thanks to the Rosetta stone) in Europe, news of this was slow to reach North America, especially into hick towns like Palmyra. So J. Smith thought he was coming up with something amazing, when in fact, Champollion had already figured out Egyptian writing in 1810. Supposedly, Smith had a (male) secretary that would take dictation while Smith would recite the revelations that were coming to him from the stones, as he'd "translate" the text. The secretary's wife wasn't buying the story of revelation through ancient Egyptian text, and destroyed her husband's dictations, saying "If he's so good at translating, let him do it again and see if he gets the same story." Let's just say that the second version wasn't the same.
(this is mostly hearsay anyway)
Part of the amusement of the Book of Mormon is that its language style is similar to the KJV of the Bible, even though English of that sort was 200 years out of date. You'd think that if you translated anything, even ancient Egyptian, properly, you'd translate it into the English of your own time.
The Golden Plates have not been publically seen for a long time. Apparently, the church elders that succeeded Smith stowed it away, for safe keeping, lest someone actually decipher it accurately. Be that as it may, some old photographs of some of the plates did make it out. When real Egyptologists attempted to decipher the text, they realized that it was actually excerpts from the Book of the Dead. The Book of the Dead is essentially a manual to the preserved mummy on how to make one's way to the afterlife. It describes what one should expect in the next life, including the judgement of Osiris by the weighing of the heart against a feather, to determine one's moral fortitude. You can guess that none of this is in the Book of Mormon.
I've already mentioned the references to alien visitation and Kolob.
Finally, there is the interesting matter of polygamy and racism. Polygamy was once doctrine of LDS, however, it no longer is. Only a few fringe groups still practice it, and they are not recognized as legit by the Church. The reason given is that it was a reinterpretation of doctrine, but the real reason is that the federal government refused to grant Utah admission into the Union as a state as long as polygamy was practiced. A similar situation occured with racism. Until about 1960, racism was written into doctrine as the "curse of Ham." After the civil rights act was passed in 1964, the church was investigated for racism, because it wanted to continue to be recognized as tax-exempt, as all other religions in the US. Once again, this doctrine was lifted. This is why nearly all Mormons you see proselytizing, while wearing those spiffy suits, mind you, are white.
Most of Mormon theology is, at least superficially, similar to Christian fundamentalist theology. Smith, after all, grew up in communities that had similar churches, so he would've been well exposed to the stuff. However, what's amusing is the nature of the way in which the religion was revealed.
Revealed religions include Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. They have a legendary origin in which the tenets of the religion are revealed from a divine source. In Islam, for example, it was when the Archangel Gabriel came to Mohammed. Mormonism is also a revealed religion. It is claimed that J. Smith received several documents, in the form of golden plates, from the angel Moroni, which were written in ancient Egyptien hieroglyphs. Smith also received two magical translation stones with which to decipher the text. This all occured about 1830 in upstate NY, in the town of Palmyra.
Although at the time, Egyptian hieroglyphs had been translated (thanks to the Rosetta stone) in Europe, news of this was slow to reach North America, especially into hick towns like Palmyra. So J. Smith thought he was coming up with something amazing, when in fact, Champollion had already figured out Egyptian writing in 1810. Supposedly, Smith had a (male) secretary that would take dictation while Smith would recite the revelations that were coming to him from the stones, as he'd "translate" the text. The secretary's wife wasn't buying the story of revelation through ancient Egyptian text, and destroyed her husband's dictations, saying "If he's so good at translating, let him do it again and see if he gets the same story." Let's just say that the second version wasn't the same.
(this is mostly hearsay anyway)Part of the amusement of the Book of Mormon is that its language style is similar to the KJV of the Bible, even though English of that sort was 200 years out of date. You'd think that if you translated anything, even ancient Egyptian, properly, you'd translate it into the English of your own time.
The Golden Plates have not been publically seen for a long time. Apparently, the church elders that succeeded Smith stowed it away, for safe keeping, lest someone actually decipher it accurately. Be that as it may, some old photographs of some of the plates did make it out. When real Egyptologists attempted to decipher the text, they realized that it was actually excerpts from the Book of the Dead. The Book of the Dead is essentially a manual to the preserved mummy on how to make one's way to the afterlife. It describes what one should expect in the next life, including the judgement of Osiris by the weighing of the heart against a feather, to determine one's moral fortitude. You can guess that none of this is in the Book of Mormon.
I've already mentioned the references to alien visitation and Kolob.
Finally, there is the interesting matter of polygamy and racism. Polygamy was once doctrine of LDS, however, it no longer is. Only a few fringe groups still practice it, and they are not recognized as legit by the Church. The reason given is that it was a reinterpretation of doctrine, but the real reason is that the federal government refused to grant Utah admission into the Union as a state as long as polygamy was practiced. A similar situation occured with racism. Until about 1960, racism was written into doctrine as the "curse of Ham." After the civil rights act was passed in 1964, the church was investigated for racism, because it wanted to continue to be recognized as tax-exempt, as all other religions in the US. Once again, this doctrine was lifted. This is why nearly all Mormons you see proselytizing, while wearing those spiffy suits, mind you, are white.
Che Guava
The Juicy Revolutionary
To correct an earlier post, the doctrine of acheiving a god-like status after death does seem to show up in mormon literature, and is known as exaltation:
Matt: Have I interpreted that correctly? Is this belief widely held in the mormon community?
Book of Doctrines and Covenants said:
Matt: Have I interpreted that correctly? Is this belief widely held in the mormon community?
Riesstiu IV
Deity
Are there any significant Mormon communities outside of the US?
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
I posted this in the Scientology thread, but I suppose it should be posted here too: A webpage critical of Mormonism. I can certainly not vouch for the accuracy of all they say there, but they provide plenty of references, so checking up any claims you disbelieve should be doable.
I've only glanced at the page with evidence for the facticity of Book of Mormon history, but some of the stuff they have is decidedly unimpressive. Frex, they mention a copper-smelting site found in Guerrero in 2000 as corrobodating BoM claims of ancient metalworking in the Americas. Mighty fine, except that it's been known that the Mesoamericans knew gold, silver, and copper since the Spanish Conquest. The probablematic claim in the BoM is the pre-Columbian use of iron.
I've only glanced at the page with evidence for the facticity of Book of Mormon history, but some of the stuff they have is decidedly unimpressive. Frex, they mention a copper-smelting site found in Guerrero in 2000 as corrobodating BoM claims of ancient metalworking in the Americas. Mighty fine, except that it's been known that the Mesoamericans knew gold, silver, and copper since the Spanish Conquest. The probablematic claim in the BoM is the pre-Columbian use of iron.
Che Guava said:
in a very short answer, this is somewhat true. I admit, that i prob cant do it justice here. I might advice you look at the article regarding exaltatioin on the links in the OP, or ask the other Mormon. I suspect that since he recently got off his mission, he might be able to answer the question better than I.
if this is not the case, i'll hazard an explanation in a little while
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
Something odd I found:
According to this this proclamation from 2000, the LDSs take the rather eccentric position that Jehova* in the old testament is to be identified with Jesus Christ, not with the Father. Yet, this page lists a variety of early Mormon texts that identify Jehova with the Father rather than the Son.
Just what is going on here?!
* Nitpick: That's not a correct vocalization of the Hebrew.
According to this this proclamation from 2000, the LDSs take the rather eccentric position that Jehova* in the old testament is to be identified with Jesus Christ, not with the Father. Yet, this page lists a variety of early Mormon texts that identify Jehova with the Father rather than the Son.
Just what is going on here?!
* Nitpick: That's not a correct vocalization of the Hebrew.
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
"Mainline" Mormons don't. There are some splinter groups that do (in violation of American law).RoboPig said:so mormons dont practice polygamy
btw, one of my best friends is mormon
The Last Conformist said:
i suspect that use of the word Jehova, as used by very early Mormon leaders, may have been used in a context not speaking about the god of the old testement.
I am not totally sure, and i'll try to get back to you after asking some questions. I know that some of the quotes on that particular website, are, for lack of a better word, bullcrap....but not all of them. I suspect it has to do with context or quibbling over words. lemme check
Homie
Anti-Lefty
Yes. Like I already said, I was in Fiji and there was a huge mormon tempel, even though almost all Fijians are methodist. In Kristiansand, Norway they have a tempel in the centre of the city - close to the old church, in Hawaii I saw a big tempel as well. I don't think they are the majority faith in any country, but they sure exist all over the globe.Riesstiu IV said:
Edit: Doh! Matt already answered this.
