Matt's Mormon Thread

[ironduck]

i am personally rather apathetic about homosexuality. What they do doesnt hurt me, and im certainly in no posistion to judge, so i dont really think about it much. the scriptures seem rather clear on the matter, but i dont see how its any worse than say, lying or stealing.

What scripture - the bible or the mormon book? I disagree regarding the bible, so I'm interested if it says it in the mormon book.

One can be denyed a temple recomend for drinking alcohol....thats a big deal. When im sick, i drink herbal tea, and i dont think anybody is coming to come beating down my house for it or anything.
coffee and tea, im sure, have some health benefits. they also do things to harm your body. i think that i could get the potentional benefit from tea, et all, from other foods if need be

But many foods have potential downsides. Shouldn't they be banned as well then? If you want to go by 'treat the body as a temple' shouldn't it be based on the newest knowledge? The thing about food is that it needs to be varied; too much of many substances can be negative. Tea, especially green tea, is not harmful to the body in normal moderations anymore than most other foods.

 

[downtown]

@MattBrown: Am I to infer that you accept Jeff Lindsay's location of the Nephites et al. in Mesoamerica?

As someone not altogether unfamiliar with the history and archaeology of the area, I have to say it sounds more than implausible. A civilization with steel and horses existed in Mesoamerica for centuries around the birth of Christ, without leaving any archaeological trace that has been found to date, and without those things being adopted by any of the well-evidenced civilizations (most notably Maya and Teotihuacano) that were flowering at the time?

do i accept jeff lindsay's location? if he claims that the civilazations went from south america all the way up to Canada, then no. I admit, i am not an expert on this. i know that more progress has been made in validating our theory then there was in say, 1880 (when everything was mocked), but i would find it unlikely that a scientific case for mormonism will ever really be put together.

I dont know how big the civs were supposed to be. I dont know where they landed. the book of mormon doesnt really say, and, to be honest, it isnt too important to me. All i know is that it happened.

 

[downtown]

What scripture - the bible or the mormon book? I disagree regarding the bible, so I'm interested if it says it in the mormon book.



But many foods have potential downsides. Shouldn't they be banned as well then? If you want to go by 'treat the body as a temple' shouldn't it be based on the newest knowledge? The thing about food is that it needs to be varied; too much of many substances can be negative. Tea, especially green tea, is not harmful to the body in normal moderations anymore than most other foods.

and in fact, the scriptures talk about healthy eating habits as well. It's true, too much of a good thing is bad for you...its mentioned. its possible that some element of tradition is involved as well

if its all the same to you ironduck, id rather not have a "is homosexuality a sin" arguement. i do not recall any verses on homosexuality in the book of mormon, so im going off whats in the bible. I imagine the rational of the church, and that of most christian churches is similar. if you'd like to talk about it, i'll be happy to post a little bit, but i fear if we talk about it in here, we'll drive the thread off topic, and we'll lose that sense of goodwill

 

[SoCalian]

given that Smith was 14, and highly unschooled, when it happened, id say its unlikely. To create that crafty of a plan beforehand would mean that Smith was something of a genius. By all accounts, he wasnt really that bright at all

See, I don't buy that age argument for a minute, I knew/know a few people off hand, that's just people that I know personaly, who could have done the samething if they wanted to. Hell, I could have done it to a bunch of uneducated 1830s hokels. It's not that hard to manipulate people if you really wanted to. Especially if you have an atractive(can't think of a beter word off-hand) personality, to boot.

 

[downtown]

well, see, you would have been an uneducated 1830 hokel too. There is little to suggest in Smith's nature that this thing would have been a money making scam. The guy was murdered for this for heavens sake. he lost his wife, his kids...everything he had. would you do that for a scam?

 

[ironduck]

So were the plates in hieroglyphics or not?

 

[SoCalian]

no, but thats not to say that someone else wouldn't. It may be one in a million people who would, but joseph smith was that one. I'm not saying he did or didn't, just sugesting something that likely could have happened.

 

[GenMarshall]

i'll be honest dude, there are sometimes at college when i wish i could drink

Personaly I dont drink alcohol except on social occasions (This is a personal reason, not a religious reason. Its a personal reason because I dont want to see myself hugging the toilet and having a hangover the size of Alaska when I drink)

I also cannot...
[cant] drink coffee or tea

What the?! I cant bear to separate myself and iced tea. But I rarely touch coffee.

I also wonder why there are more Mormans out in the Utah/Mountan region of the US but are rare to bump into one in areas such as the East and West Coast, and the Plains.

I know that there are some major Christian denominations that dont accept Mormon baptisms (Ex. Catholism does not reconise baptisms from Mormons and JWs). I am curious on which Christian denomination baptisms do the Mormons accept and consider valid?

I do find it kind of silly to not consider Mormons Christians since they to consider Jesus as their savior. In my book, if you consider jesus as your savior then you're a Christian, regardless of ideology, dogma, and doctrines. .

Homosexuality is regarded as a sin. Contreception is okay (although mormons tend to have larger families). I think abortion is also a sin, but we dont really beat our chests about it like some other churchs do. Mormons dont picket and protest much. we're very a-political.

Lets see. Both Mormons and Catholics consider homosexuality and abortion as a sin. But Catholics (apologies to any denomination that I forgot to mention that views the use of contreception as a sin) are the only ones who beleve that the use of contreception is a sin. I am wondering if there is a reasoning behind accepting contreception.

Another thing that I am curious about Mormons on what are their process for converts (from non-Christian religions and from other Christian denominations) to the Mormon chruch?

Also, Kudos for posting a FAQish Thread

 

[bhsup]

I also wonder why there are more Mormans out in the Utah/Mountan region of the US but are rare to bump into one in areas such as the East and West Coast, and the Plains.

Because they were essentially persecuted and driven out that way.

 

[SoCalian]

Lets see. Both Mormons and Catholics consider homosexuality and abortion as a sin. But Catholics (apologies to any denomination that I forgot to mention that views the use of contreception as a sin) are the only ones who beleve that the use of contreception is a sin. I am wondering if there is a reasoning behind accepting contreception.

Also, Kudos for posting a FAQish Thread

I'm a Christian , and I've always wondered why Catholics were even against contraception in the first place. As far as I am concered all sex between man and wife is holy in the eyes of God, regardless of purpous(besides rape of course). Even Paul sys in Corinthians soemthing to the effect of, if you are horney get a wife, thats the way God meant it to be(paraphrase).

 

[Homie]

I know that there are some major Christian denominations that dont accept Mormon baptisms (Ex. Catholism does not reconise baptisms from Mormons and JWs). I am curious on which Christian denomination baptisms do the Mormons accept and consider valid?

I didn't think any Christian denominations considered Mormon baptisms as valid.

To answer your question about abortian. We view it like this:
Contraception (or pulling out, what people were doing before contraceptives) is not prohibited in the Bible, therefore not a sin.
Abortion is quite different, because a life has been made, and thus it falls under the commandment "Thou shalt not murder". In the case of contraceptives, no life has been made, so no life has been taken.

But I was only answering CivGeneral's question (which I believe was directed at those Christians who allow contraceptives), so lets not leave it at that. (No homo or abortion debates please . Like the OP said)

 

[GenMarshall]

I'm a Christian , and I've always wondered why Catholics were even against contraception in the first place.

This may not be an appropreate place to ask about Catholic doctrine in this thread since this is a Mormon Thread and I cannot open a Catholism thread since I only know only a little about their doctrines.

This is a Question directed to MattBrown:
I have looked through in the LDS's offical website and read through the topic of Repentance. Does this mean that you dont confess your sins to a priest? How do you know if your sins have been forgiven?

 

[downtown]

This may not be an appropreate place to ask about Catholic doctrine in this thread since this is a Mormon Thread and I cannot open a Catholism thread since I only know only a little about their doctrines.

This is a Question directed to MattBrown:
I have looked through in the LDS's offical website and read through the topic of Repentance. Does this mean that you dont confess your sins to a priest? How do you know if your sins have been forgiven?

lots of questions. ill get to them as quick as I can.
there is a reptance process, but its a very personal thing. Mormons dont even really have "priests" per say (there is no professional clergy, like say, in the catholic church). If you've been forgiven, you'll known in your heart. God forgives all who are willing to ask and work for it

 

[downtown]

no, but thats not to say that someone else wouldn't. It may be one in a million people who would, but joseph smith was that one. I'm not saying he did or didn't, just sugesting something that likely could have happened.

if its a one in a million thing, how is it "likely?"
what you speak of is possible I suppose (i could be wrong about all of this), but i dont think your particular scenario is likely at all.

 

[downtown]

So were the plates in hieroglyphics or not?

I dont know, i never saw them. If i recall correctly, they were written in "reformed egypitian", whatever that means.

 

[Hundegesicht]

Hundegeschist, I am confused. From your account of the killings, this is how I read it: Some settlers from the east (maybe NY) came to Utah, there some Indians wanted to kill them, then the mormons stepped in and meddled between the parties, the parties accepted a truce. The settlers were to give up their guns and the indians were to not harm them. The settlers held up their end of the bargain and then the indians went and executed them now that they were defenseless. How could you possibly defend this? I can't think of anything more immoral and cowardly. No wonder the white man butchered the indians.

Sorry for taking so long, been at work all day...

Anyway. I'm not defending what they did at all. I think it was completely wrong and immoral. I was just explaining (to vietcong and Eyrei) what actually happened, and the reasons behind it. I don't defend those reasons, but I do understand them, and also understand that it was an isolated event, and don't think it's something that should be held against the modern day LDS. (It's currently one of the main arguments used by anti-Mormons to show how barbaric they are)

 

[ironduck]

I dont know, i never saw them. If i recall correctly, they were written in "reformed egypitian", whatever that means.

Probably Demotic.

What would be the point of getting the scripture in Demotic (or any other Egyptian) when his native language was English? Surely those who should read the boards should be able to understand them as well as possible? Is Demotic somehow considered sacred? The bible isn't written in Demotic, so I don't see any logical link there at all.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

According to Joseph Smith, the reason the plates were given to him in Reformed Egyptian (not a language but a writing system that transcribes Hebrew words into some form of Egyptian script) is that that was what was used by the ancient prophets who wrote the Book of Mormon. Twelve people would later testify that they had seen the plates (3 said an angel showed it to them) and all of them stuck by this testimony even though most split with Smith for other reasons. We believe that said angel (Moroni, son of Mormon) then took the plates back because they would not be safe in anyone else's hands - that was a lot of gold. And as Mattbrown said, there was no compelling reason to fake it - many charlatans made better money in religion without presenting 'scripture', and Joseph Smith did die for it eventually.

There is no LDS doctrine on where in the New World the events of the Book of Mormon are said to have happened. They seem to me to be consistent with Mesoamerica, although on a small scale and 2000 years ago, which would explain why there is no archeological evidence. In addition, according to the Book itself, most of the references to things like iron and horses were made by Moroni, writing several hundred years after they were said to have occured, and he may have been mistaken on some historical details.

There is also no LDS doctrine on ID/evolution - members can believe what they want. As far as I know, Brigham Young University, run by the church, teaches standard evolution (which I find to be closer to the spirit of LDS doctrine than ID anyway, but that's an opinion).

Regarding the Word of Wisdom - we don't drink coffee, tea, et al (actually herbal teas are allowed) not primarily for the health benefits but because we believe God commanded us not to. To be sure, the health benefits we gain by never drinking or smoking outweigh the minor losses from whatever helpful acids tea supposedly gives, but that's a secondary benefit - first of all is obedience. The prohibiton doesn't actually apply to caffiene, only coffee and some teas, but many members feel caffienated beverages violate the spirit if not the letter of the law.

Regarding homosexuality - in the church we believe that God speaks to prophets not just anciently (ie the Bible) but can do so in modern times and clarify points of doctrine. Thus we believe that God does now and has always prohibited any sexual intercourse outside of what He considers marriage (which we believe is only a man and a woman) which prohibits homosexual activities as well. As recently as 1995, the man we believe is a prophet issued a statement that clarifies this. So I have no problems with homosexuals as human beings, and don't even really oppose things like gay marriage, and I realize that the Biblical prohibition is not clear enough to apply, but I believe that God has said recently that it is immoral.

Regarding abortion, we believe that life begins at some point before birth and that therefore, except in cases of rape, or of danger to the mother, abortion is almost as bad as murder. We are not opposed to contraceptives, although a lot of members don't use them.

 

[ironduck]

Regarding the Word of Wisdom - we don't drink coffee, tea, et al (actually herbal teas are allowed) not primarily for the health benefits but because we believe God commanded us not to.

but I believe that God has said recently that it is immoral.

Aren't you interested in why your god commands you to do things this or that way? If he asked you to always wear a pink dress, would you not be interested in why? Or is it completely irrelevant and you will do whatever he commands you to do?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

In the first case, there are certainly health benefits to following the Word of Wisdom as opposed to following the typical alcohol/nicotine intake. However, part of the process of growing is faith - doing something without a complete understanding in the hopes that the understanding will come later. In this case, it's not that we don't know why we do it, it's that for the most part we do it because we need to show obedience to God.

As for the second, with regards to sexual morality, LDS doctrine on sex and its place in the plan of God suggests that it is too important to be taken lightly and must be placed within the context of marriage. Now, I admit I have no idea why God would then turn around and give some people homosexual tendencies or attractions, but I trust that He is smarter than me. If God told us tomorrow that it's ok for homosexuals to have same-sex marriages, I would accept that.

Basically, we try to have an understanding of why there are particular commandments, but obey them anyways. Pink isn't really my color, and a dress would be hard to wear in this cold weather, but if God tells me, I'll go to the dress shop.