Matt's Mormon Thread

matt said:
i suspect that use of the word Jehova, as used by very early Mormon leaders, may have been used in a context not speaking about the god of the old testement.
Jehova is just an anglified version of the tetragram (i.e. the name of God The Father), just like Jesus is an anglified version of Yeshua. From what I remember, no one knows the real name of the Father because the Jews thought it holy and thus it couldn't be uttered or written down, so they just wrote it without the vowels, like this: Yhvh, Yhwh (or something like this), that's not important, the importance is that His "name" means "I am", He told Moses (or was it Abraham?) when Moses asked what His name was, because God didn't have a name, He was the only God so He didn't need a name to go by, God was sufficient. But when Moses asked Him, He just said "I am who I am", or something like that (going by memory)
 
Nice job starting the thread, Matt. I have questions!

According to the Jeff Lindsay site you link to a lot, intelligent design appears to be part of mormon doctrine. Do you go with that doctrine as well?

How do mormons look at homosexuality? Contraception? Abortion? Asking because you say you cannot have pre-marital sex, which leads me to think of super conservative branches of christianity like catholicism.

Why can't you drink alcohol exactly? And why can't you drink tea or coffee? What are the specific reasons? The coffee and tea thing surprises me.. is caffeine considered a drug, and if so in what way? What negative effect does it have? What do mormons say to the scientific evidence that alcohol in moderation can have important health benefits?

A slew of questions, I'm just interested because it seems to me to be firmly entrenched in the doctrine of old texts rather than adapting to knew knowledge. Similar to jews and muslims not being allowed to eat various food and so on.
 
Nanocyborgasm said:
Part of the amusement of the Book of Mormon is that its language style is similar to the KJV of the Bible, even though English of that sort was 200 years out of date. You'd think that if you translated anything, even ancient Egyptian, properly, you'd translate it into the English of your own time.

The Golden Plates have not been publically seen for a long time. Apparently, the church elders that succeeded Smith stowed it away, for safe keeping, lest someone actually decipher it accurately. Be that as it may, some old photographs of some of the plates did make it out. When real Egyptologists attempted to decipher the text, they realized that it was actually excerpts from the Book of the Dead.

This is quite interesting - any mormons want to reply? Also, why the heck would the angel provide the documents in hieroglyphics and not the native language of the person(s) who was to read them?

I've already mentioned the references to alien visitation and Kolob.

Mormons say this is not true.. I can't say one way or the other since it's just word vs word..
 
@MattBrown: Am I to infer that you accept Jeff Lindsay's location of the Nephites et al. in Mesoamerica?

As someone not altogether unfamiliar with the history and archaeology of the area, I have to say it sounds more than implausible. A civilization with steel and horses existed in Mesoamerica for centuries around the birth of Christ, without leaving any archaeological trace that has been found to date, and without those things being adopted by any of the well-evidenced civilizations (most notably Maya and Teotihuacano) that were flowering at the time?
 
iron said:
How do mormons look at homosexuality? Contraception? Abortion? Asking because you say you cannot have pre-marital sex, which leads me to think of super conservative branches of christianity like catholicism.
Every branch of Christianity views premarital sex as sinful. And every Christian who looks upon himself as a devout Christian at least tries to avoid premarital sex, except for some very liberal Christians - but those are exceptions to the rule (a minority).

Iron said:
What do mormons say to the scientific evidence that alcohol in moderation can have important health benefits?
I guess they value the risk of getting addicted to alcohol (a possibility) vs the supposed (incredibly minor) health benefits from alcohol.
Mummy - Johnny, don't forget to eat your vegetables and drink your whiskey! ;)
 
I actually know one of those Christians who actually is a devout Christian and at the same time thinks premarital sex is ok. He was actually a missionary for a year. But they are few and far between. And more often than not, left-wing on the political scale.

But I have rambled on long enough about that - back to the topic :)
 
Nanocyborgasm said:
I find these threads funny, but I'm going to throw my 2 cents of what I know.

Most of Mormon theology is, at least superficially, similar to Christian fundamentalist theology. Smith, after all, grew up in communities that had similar churches, so he would've been well exposed to the stuff. However, what's amusing is the nature of the way in which the religion was revealed.

Revealed religions include Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. They have a legendary origin in which the tenets of the religion are revealed from a divine source. In Islam, for example, it was when the Archangel Gabriel came to Mohammed. Mormonism is also a revealed religion. It is claimed that J. Smith received several documents, in the form of golden plates, from the angel Moroni, which were written in ancient Egyptien hieroglyphs. Smith also received two magical translation stones with which to decipher the text. This all occured about 1830 in upstate NY, in the town of Palmyra.

Although at the time, Egyptian hieroglyphs had been translated (thanks to the Rosetta stone) in Europe, news of this was slow to reach North America, especially into hick towns like Palmyra. So J. Smith thought he was coming up with something amazing, when in fact, Champollion had already figured out Egyptian writing in 1810. Supposedly, Smith had a (male) secretary that would take dictation while Smith would recite the revelations that were coming to him from the stones, as he'd "translate" the text. The secretary's wife wasn't buying the story of revelation through ancient Egyptian text, and destroyed her husband's dictations, saying "If he's so good at translating, let him do it again and see if he gets the same story." Let's just say that the second version wasn't the same. ;) (this is mostly hearsay anyway)

Part of the amusement of the Book of Mormon is that its language style is similar to the KJV of the Bible, even though English of that sort was 200 years out of date. You'd think that if you translated anything, even ancient Egyptian, properly, you'd translate it into the English of your own time.

The Golden Plates have not been publically seen for a long time. Apparently, the church elders that succeeded Smith stowed it away, for safe keeping, lest someone actually decipher it accurately. Be that as it may, some old photographs of some of the plates did make it out. When real Egyptologists attempted to decipher the text, they realized that it was actually excerpts from the Book of the Dead. The Book of the Dead is essentially a manual to the preserved mummy on how to make one's way to the afterlife. It describes what one should expect in the next life, including the judgement of Osiris by the weighing of the heart against a feather, to determine one's moral fortitude. You can guess that none of this is in the Book of Mormon.

I've already mentioned the references to alien visitation and Kolob.

Finally, there is the interesting matter of polygamy and racism. Polygamy was once doctrine of LDS, however, it no longer is. Only a few fringe groups still practice it, and they are not recognized as legit by the Church. The reason given is that it was a reinterpretation of doctrine, but the real reason is that the federal government refused to grant Utah admission into the Union as a state as long as polygamy was practiced. A similar situation occured with racism. Until about 1960, racism was written into doctrine as the "curse of Ham." After the civil rights act was passed in 1964, the church was investigated for racism, because it wanted to continue to be recognized as tax-exempt, as all other religions in the US. Once again, this doctrine was lifted. This is why nearly all Mormons you see proselytizing, while wearing those spiffy suits, mind you, are white.

The "Gold Plates" don't exist at all.

Smith said he had them for a while. But he wouldn't let anybody see it. He would keep "it" in a box and let people feel how heavy they were. Then when people started asking more questions, he said the angel Moroni came down and took them away.

I don't know where this "Book of the Dead" stuff comes from, but it hardly seems necessary.

As for "Kolob" it's a star from the Old Testament, said to be near the throne of God.

The series "Battlestar Galactica" draws heavily on mormon mythology, and they've the planet "Kobol."
 
Homie said:
Every branch of Christianity views premarital sex as sinful. And every Christian who looks upon himself as a devout Christian at least tries to avoid premarital sex, except for some very liberal Christians - but those are exceptions to the rule (a minority).


I guess they value the risk of getting addicted to alcohol (a possibility) vs the supposed (incredibly minor) health benefits from alcohol.
Mummy - Johnny, don't forget to eat your vegetables and drink your whiskey! ;)

Are you kidding? The vast majority of Christians have premarital sex, just like everybody else.

Even the devout ones who say they're against premarital sex.

That's why those christian "abstinence pledge" groups are riddled with STDs. They're still having all the sex, just not with condoms.
 
Homie said:
Every branch of Christianity views premarital sex as sinful. And every Christian who looks upon himself as a devout Christian at least tries to avoid premarital sex, except for some very liberal Christians - but those are exceptions to the rule (a minority).

The mainstream protestant branch of christianity where I live does not view pre-marital sex as sinful. Further, I know of very devout christians of other branches who do not view non-marital sex as sinful at all.

Homie said:
I guess they value the risk of getting addicted to alcohol (a possibility) vs the supposed (incredibly minor) health benefits from alcohol.
Mummy - Johnny, don't forget to eat your vegetables and drink your whiskey! ;)

I'm looking for a mormon to answer me, not a non-mormon. And the benefits have been shown as significant, not 'incredibly minor'. Please consult scientific research if you wish, but don't hijack the thread.
 
From the answer My debate coach(a mormon who we got a lot of information out of) gave me, the coffee and tea thing has to do with the body being a temple, which is a rather common Judeo-Christian belief, taken to the extreme. and yes caffinated soft drinks are in this category too. I asume this is a much more conservative view, because the man is rediculusly prudish.

I have a question though. Isn't it possible that Josheph Smith burried the plates himself, and then told people that he had a vision, and went to where he burried them? Couln't it be possible that he just wanted to srew with people, and made up a religion to control people, and that everything he did in the begining was planed before hand?
 
SomethingWitty said:
Smith said he had them for a while. But he wouldn't let anybody see it. He would keep "it" in a box and let people feel how heavy they were. Then when people started asking more questions, he said the angel Moroni came down and took them away.

So was it written in hieroglyphics?

Are you a mormon? If so, I'd like you to answer my questions to Matt above if you want..
 
ironduck said:
Nice job starting the thread, Matt. I have questions!

According to the Jeff Lindsay site you link to a lot, intelligent design appears to be part of mormon doctrine. Do you go with that doctrine as well?

How do mormons look at homosexuality? Contraception? Abortion? Asking because you say you cannot have pre-marital sex, which leads me to think of super conservative branches of christianity like catholicism.

Why can't you drink alcohol exactly? And why can't you drink tea or coffee? What are the specific reasons? The coffee and tea thing surprises me.. is caffeine considered a drug, and if so in what way? What negative effect does it have? What do mormons say to the scientific evidence that alcohol in moderation can have important health benefits?

A slew of questions, I'm just interested because it seems to me to be firmly entrenched in the doctrine of old texts rather than adapting to knew knowledge. Similar to jews and muslims not being allowed to eat various food and so on.

ok, i'll see what i can do

as far as i know, the church doesnt take an offical stance on ID. I personally adhere to the belief that God created the world, but it doesnt say how or how long. I dont think that many of the ideas presented with evolution conflict with that of christainity. I'm not a scientist, so i dont really feel qualified to agrue the finer points of ID/evolution. ill leave it to perfection or somebody.

Homosexuality is regarded as a sin. Contreception is okay (although mormons tend to have larger families). I think abortion is also a sin, but we dont really beat our chests about it like some other churchs do. Mormons dont picket and protest much. we're very a-political.

the "food" laws come from a revelation called the "word of wisdom". There are twofold reasons. First, you'll stay a lot more healthy that way. we didnt know what we know now about tobacco, etc. in the 1800's.

the second is the idea that we want to stay in control of our own bodies. Drugs, alcohol etc can cloud our judgement, which can lead us to make poor choices, and be unable to be receptive to God. Dont have much of an answer to that "glass of red wine a day is good for the heart". if I follow everything else, my heart will be good shape anyways.
 
SoCalian said:
From the answer My debate coach(a mormon who we got a lot of information out of) gave me, the coffee and tea thing has to do with the body being a temple, which is a rather common Judeo-Christian belief, taken to the extreme. and yes caffinated soft drinks are in this category too. I asume this is a much more conservative view, because the man is rediculusly prudish.

Well, I can accept the body is a temple philosophy. My point is simply that when new knowledge is attained on how to treat the body, that should then be incorporated into the interpretation of the religion. So instead of saying that tea is sinful, perhaps the healthy effects of tea could be considered.
 
SoCalian said:
I have a question though. Isn't it possible that Josheph Smith burried the plates himself, and then told people that he had a vision, and went to where he burried them? Couln't it be possible that he just wanted to srew with people, and made up a religion to control people, and that everything he did in the begining was planed before hand?

given that Smith was 14, and highly unschooled, when it happened, id say its unlikely. To create that crafty of a plan beforehand would mean that Smith was something of a genius. By all accounts, he wasnt really that bright at all
 
MattBrown said:
Homosexuality is regarded as a sin.

Does this mean you regard it as a sin as well? If so, do you have any rational explanation?

the "food" laws come from a revelation called the "word of wisdom". There are twofold reasons. First, you'll stay a lot more healthy that way. we didnt know what we know now about tobacco, etc. in the 1800's.

the second is the idea that we want to stay in control of our own bodies. Drugs, alcohol etc can cloud our judgement, which can lead us to make poor choices, and be unable to be receptive to God. Dont have much of an answer to that "glass of red wine a day is good for the heart". if I follow everything else, my heart will be good shape anyways.

But are the food laws the same as a religious command? Do you sin if you disobey them? Because we have knowledge about these things now that make it rather strange to forbid tea for health reasons, for instance.
 
ironduck said:
Does this mean you regard it as a sin as well? If so, do you have any rational explanation?



But are the food laws the same as a religious command? Do you sin if you disobey them? Because we have knowledge about these things now that make it rather strange to forbid tea for health reasons, for instance.

i am personally rather apathetic about homosexuality. What they do doesnt hurt me, and im certainly in no posistion to judge, so i dont really think about it much. the scriptures seem rather clear on the matter, but i dont see how its any worse than say, lying or stealing.

I have many gay friends. i dont condemn them or anything. it aint any of my business.

One can be denyed a temple recomend for drinking alcohol....thats a big deal. When im sick, i drink herbal tea, and i dont think anybody is coming to come beating down my house for it or anything.
coffee and tea, im sure, have some health benefits. they also do things to harm your body. i think that i could get the potentional benefit from tea, et all, from other foods if need be
 
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