Matt's Mormon Thread

[downtown]

has anybody even said that?
discussing this is stupid. God wouldnt ever do that. Why would God tell somebody to break his own laws? An exception would require God actually showing up, and giving a damn good reason.

 

[silver 2039]

has anybody even said that?
discussing this is stupid. God wouldnt ever do that. Why would God tell somebody to break his own laws? An exception would require God actually showing up, and giving a damn good reason.

Yes someone has said that and I would like him to explain.

I just told you that if God told me to kill one of my parents or siblings I would(whom I love very much btw, and who also happen to be brethren and sisters in Christ). Don't you think I would also press the red button? I would.

 

[Mathilda]

He is my personal savior, as well as the savior of all of those who accept him - and those who don't.

I read that to mean that according to Mormons everybody will be saved, wether they believe or not. Did I read that correct?

Still further about Jesus. Was he a man or a god or both? Holy trinity?

 

[ironduck]

has anybody even said that?
discussing this is stupid. God wouldnt ever do that. Why would God tell somebody to break his own laws? An exception would require God actually showing up, and giving a damn good reason.

I don't think discussing it is stupid since I'm the one who brought it up.

I find it frightening that people will blindly obey another being and do what is against their moral code - even wipe out humanity.

It doesn't matter why god would say it, the point is that people say they would do it just because god says it.

In the bible Abraham didn't get a reason either, he just went to sacrifice his son and would have done it had he not been stopped.

And as has been stated time and again by christians, the devil can throw all kinds of tricks - people may well think god is commanding them to do it when it is in fact the devil.

Have you ever thought about that the real test is whether you stand up to your own moral standards rather than obey someone else's?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Thie question is far more hypothetical than you realize. After all, we know that God values human life even more than we do, so He isn't going to tell us to kill anyone. (Except under exceptional circumstances, eg Abraham, but again, Abraham had previously spoken directly to God, which is more than any of us can say.) I can't say what I would do if God told me to kill someone, for the simple reason that I can't think of any circumstances when He would. After all, if He needs someone dead, He has plenty of ways of doing it himself. And I see nothing wrong with obeying God's moral standards rather than my own - I understand imperfectly, but He with his knowledge understands all.

@Mathilda - When Mormons speak of salvation, there are 3 or 4 different things we mean.
In the broadest sense, everyone who has ever lived will be saved from physical death, ie will have a physical body in the next life and will be resurrected.
In the next sense, all but a very small group (those who, after having a sure knowledge of God, deny him - you pretty much have to be a prophet before you can commit what we call the unpardonable sin) will be saved from complete spiritual death, or living completely outside the presence of God.
In a more specific sense, those who have obeyed the commandments and accepted Christ will live with God, and be able to become like He is, which is usually what we mean by salvation.

It is because of Christ that we are saved from physical death, ie we can have a physical body after this life, and we can be saved from our sins if we accept him (which also means doing what he said to do). Of course, those who couldn't accept him in their earth life (like, you know, the majority of the human race, who never heard of him) will be able to after death.

We don't believe in the Trinity in the same sense as mainstream Christianity - we believe that Jesus is a separate and distinct being from God the Father. However, we do believe that he is and always has been divine, that he has a relationship to God that none of us has, and was chosen from the beginning to be the Savior of mankind. He is also fully human - when he was born, he became subject to both the physical infirmities and moral temptations that afflict humanity. Since we believe that humanity has a divine potential, saying that someone is both human and divine isn't a contradiction.

 

[El_Machinae]

But all this is besides the point anyway, as it is highly unlikely that God would ask such silly things of me or anyone. And if He did, there would be a good reason for it, God is much smarter than us, and He can always see the big picture.

And I've seen a schizophrenic who was 100% convinced that God told him to do some crazy/outlandish/immoral action. I've interacted with one on a regular basis, and I really do believe that he believes. He can logically see that the actions demanded of him are immoral, but it doesn't prevent him from doing them, because he answers to 'God', not man. He's not smart enough to see that his condition is typical with people with his type of brain damage, but with access to his fMRI and a textbook, I certainly can.

So, if God tells you to do an action which is outside of common sense or morality, how do you know that you're not suffering from a similar condition? You certainly don't.

PS: his condition manifested when he drank too much water. That's right, water.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Let me put it this way: I can certainly obey what God tells me to do when it doesn't severely contradict what He has previously told me. But if I hear a voice, or receive an impression, that God is telling me to kill someone, I guarantee He will understand if I immediately seek professional help. Like I said, He isn't going to do it anyway.

Again, all this 'killing people' is not really at the root of our doctrine, even if we have spent the last couple pages talking about it. I am perfectly willing to talk about other things as well.

 

[El_Machinae]

That planet question really perked my interest.

 

[Che Guava]

That planet question really perked my interest.

Exaltation? I was hoping we would get back that that

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Exaltation is the belief that those who are most worthy, who during this life and the next progress spiritually to a high enough degree, will be able to become like God is now, with their own spiritual offspring as we are the spiritual offspring of God. That means that those who have been exalted will be gods, still having to obey and honor God, but with spiritual children as well. Thus people talk of Mormons and their own 'planets' - although we never use those terms. However, if anyone is going to have spiritual offspring, those offspring will need physical bodies and have to live somewhere. However, as God is the lord of this universe, no one is going to have their own planets around here. It's kind of hard to explain, especially as we don't have all the details. But the gist of it is we believe human beings have within them the potential to be gods one day.

 

[Che Guava]

Eran: thanks so much! I have been hoping to understand this for some time!

 

[El_Machinae]

They'll create their own universe. I get that. Physicists believe in that too.

Is it possible that God is one of these formerly exalted beings, and that He answers to a higher authority?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

It's possible, but we don't know for sure. After all, He would probably tell us, but who knows. Joseph Smith hinted that that might be the case, but as long as we don't know, we worship God the Father as our only creator.

 

[ironduck]

So the Mormon faith is actually polytheism since it's possible that there are other gods.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

We have been accused of polytheism by believers and unbelievers alike, but I don't really think the title applies here because a) we don't know for sure there are other gods besides God, and b) He is the only one we worship, the Supreme Being and Creator of all we know. Actual polytheists, as far as I know, not only believe in but also worship numerous gods. For us, there is only God the Father.

 

[ironduck]

But you just said:

That means that those who have been exalted will be gods, still having to obey and honor God, but with spiritual children as well

What this means is that there are several gods, even if one of them is the top dog.

That's like other religions with a top god and several lesser gods. Even if you only worship the top god you acknowledge that there are other gods. That is polytheism.

 

[vbraun]

I know a couple Mormons. There some of the nicest people ever.

 

[Che Guava]

That's like other religions with a top god and several lesser gods. Even if you only worship the top god you acknowledge that there are other gods. That is polytheism.

I don't know, almost all christian denominations speak of angels, where do they fit into the classification of things? More than human, less than omnipotent, sounds like a 'godling' to me...!

 

[ironduck]

I don't know, almost all christian denominations speak of angels, where do they fit into the classification of things? More than human, less than omnipotent, sounds like a 'godling' to me...!

If they are considered gods, then sure I don't have to worry about that definition though. I'm simply pointing out that if there is more than one god then that's polytheism.

 

[El_Machinae]

I know a couple Mormons. There some of the nicest people ever.

That's my criteria for judging every single religion:

"Do they help people because of their faith, or do they hurt people because of their faith?"

I don't care if they believe in an unsalted cracker, if they're building hospitals in Mexico, I wish them luck. If they're burning down libraries, I say 'arrest them'!