Matt's Mormon Thread

[Merzbow]

Do Mormons consider themselves Christians? Why/why not, and how would you define a Christian? Are there any areas where the Bible and Book of Mormon contradict each other? Is Joseph Smith considered more or less 'important' of a prophet than other Bible prophets?

 

[Sir Bugsy]

First, I live in the midst of the second largest Mormon concentration outside of Utah, so I am familiar. Some questions:

1. Is it true that the Mormon church believes that Jesus was only a man? That he was the son of God in the same way that you and I are children of God. If that is true, then the Mormons are not a Christian church and have just added "Jesus Christ" to their name for political reasons. Just like black men were allowed to join the priesthood when the Supreme Court said the LDS church would lose their tax break.

2. Is it true that Mormons believe we are born of our celestial parents? Then we get to choose to whom we are born on earth?

3. Is it true that the Mormons believe that "heaven" will be that we get to go to our own planet and become celestial parents for new celestial children? That in effect we become gods?

4. If these plate of Moroni were in fact real, why didn't Joseph Smith hold on to them as evidence?

5. Why are there horses in the book of Mormon? Why are there carts with wheels? Horses and the wheel did not appear on the North American continent until Europeans introduced them. There are many archelogical problems with the book of Mormon for those that are interested.

6. How can Joseph Smith say that the true priesthood was lost for nearly two thousand years? I'd like to see the evidence.

7. D&C says you should abhore "strong drink" I'm sorry, coffee, tea and caffinated pop are not strong drink. I can see the alcohol portion.

 

[downtown]

Do Mormons consider themselves Christians? Why/why not, and how would you define a Christian? Are there any areas where the Bible and Book of Mormon contradict each other? Is Joseph Smith considered more or less 'important' of a prophet than other Bible prophets?

the full name of the Mormon church is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". We consider ourselves very much christians.

I personally define a christian as one who accepts the atonement of Jesus, and strives to live a christlike life.

I cannot think of an instance where the BOM and the Bible contradict each other. They are meant to compliment each other. Those with different biblical intreptations might beg to disagree...but I dont see any.

I dont really recall anybody putting Joseph Smith up any higher than anybody else, be they Moses, Abraham, or another latter day prophet

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

The Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible far less than the Bible contradicts itself (ie some books of the Bible contradict each other, and there are even contradictions within books). I don't think the Supreme Court was going to revoke our tax-exempt status, and actually the change in policy on blacks on the priesthood came about a decade after the uproar over it had died down. We define strong drinks as alcoholic beverages; coffee and some teas are prohibited as 'hot drinks', and caffeinated pop is not prohibited. I have no idea what sort of 'evidence' you think there would be that priesthood power was lost; most people don't even think it ever existed. Joseph Smith didn't keep the plates because God asked for them back; if we did still have them I doubt there would be many more people who accepted the Book of Mormon than do now based on other reasons.

@ironduck - like I said, that is our interpretation of I Corinthians 15, but our doctrine of the 3 degrees of glory is not based on it but on modern revelation. The Bible does not set forth a clear picture of the next life (it speaks of it mostly in symbolic terms) but in modern times we have received more specific knowledge.

 

[Merzbow]

So how does being a Mormon affect your everday life... I know there are restrictions equivalent to the Jewish 'kosher' practice. Do you really have to give up tea and coffee? Do you really have to pay 10% of income to the church? And is this pre or post-tax (I can't believe that any ordinary family living in, say, California, where taxes approach 50%, could survive as Mormons).

 

[Alex the Great]

Whoa, this is a long thread. I was wondering how many Mormons are in the world? Are they decreasing or increasing rapidly (many wives...)? I also happen to know a Mormon in real life, and that's a funny story.

So we're in our US history class and for the period we have to dress up like 1840's-ish, antebellum reformers. My friend is Joseph Smith so he dresses up in this nice suit and brings in a book of Mormon. Before class starts, we open it to a random book and, you can probably guess this, it was the book of Moroni. The two of us had quite a laugh at that and poked some anti-Mormon fun. Until we realized another teacher in the room was Mormon. I think that just made the situation funnier .

 

[downtown]

there are around 12 million Mormons in the world right now. For the first time, there are more Mormons living outside the United States then living in it. Those in the higher church leadership posistions are still mostly Americans, but that is changing.

Mormonism is growing VERY quickly. Its the fastest growing church in the US right now, and the 2nd fastest worldwide. Considering India *just* opened its boarders for Missionaries to enter (although only to missionaries of indian decent for now), and China is expected to open their doors in the next 10 years, it is forcasted that the church will grow to 35 million + in the next 15-20 years. so yeah. getting bigger.

 

[Methos]

I came across this some time ago and have always been curious how a Mormon would answer it. I do have a couple friends who are Mormon but do not wish to endanger our friendship.

For reference, it can be found Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry.

I do not own either book so I can only base my questions of this website, but how do you explain the proposed differences as indicated in the image?

 

[cmonster]

Not quite true - it's more like 100 years (IIRC 1894 was when it was outlawed so that Utah could become a state). The early Mormon church "reinstated" polygamy because it was a quick way to promote population growth, something the small early Mormon church wanted in order to maintain their political hold on the Utah/Deseret region.

First off I just want to say I never have agreed to polygamy and yes I am a mormon (your not alone Matt). I don't agree with the above statement of why they reinstated it. During that time the church was going through some hard times. Many of the "men" of the church were killed or died. Either from harsh conditions or by anti mormons. This left behind a lot of women with children to fend for them selves. Allowing them to marry another man and to help take care of things probably seemed like the right thing to do at the time. Was this the only reason? I don't know but I do know that it was a big reason for polygamy in the church. Just my two cents, give us Mormons a chance we are not all bad.
cmonster

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I personally define a christian as one who accepts the atonement of Jesus, and strives to live a christlike life.

What a Christian believes is best summed up by the Nicene Creed:

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

It has nothing to do with atonement.

Additionally it has nothing to do with "leading a Christ-like life." It is entirely based on belief.

 

[Merzbow]

The more important question is that does it matter whether or not Mormons are Christians. Jews believe the 'Hebrew Bible' (i.e. the Old Testament) to be divinely inspired. Christians, the Old Testament plus the New Testament. Mormons, both Testaments plus the Book of Mormon. Nobody claims that Christians are Jews just because their holy books are a superset of the Jews'. It seems that certain hard-core Evangelical movements would condemn the Mormons whether or not they call themselves Christians (as these same Evangelicals would condemn Muslims and so on), so does it really matter?

I have yet to read the Book of Mormon (although I have a copy and plan to do so), but on the cover is the phrase another "Another Testament of Jesus Christ". Does this mean the book is to be considered more an extension of the Bible than a reworking of traditional Christian beliefs?

 

[downtown]

What a Christian believes is best summed up by the Nicene Creed:

.

bah. the nicene creed explains what catholics think. not the rest of us. I dont really care what those fellows drew up together thousands of years ago.

 

[Methos]

I dont really care what those fellows drew up together thousands of years ago.

Interesting statement, since the books of the Bible were 'drew' up thousands of years ago.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

The problem with the Nicene Creed is not that it was written thousands of years ago, but that it was written hundreds of years after the beginning of Christianity. Neither Peter, nor Paul, nor Christ Himself, actually subscribed to it. There is no reason why a council of bishops in 325 AD should become the ultimate authorities on a religion that was based on events of around 35 AD.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

@Methos: Most of those 'contradictions' are based on the fact that when we say 'God', we mean one of several things. 'God' can mean 'God the Father' or collectively, 'God, the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Ghost'. This may seem like odd usage but it explains the apparant contradictions. Additionally, there is a passage in the Doctrine and Covenants (I don't remember where, exactly, unfortunately) that explains the 'Hell is eternal thing: although, for most individuals, the sufferings of Hell are not permanent, the laws upon which it is based are, and Christ, who delivers such punishment, is eternal. Also, much is made of the seeming contradiction between the Book of Mormon and Mormon practice on polygamy by those who haven't bothered to actually analyze either. (Incidentally, they quote a noncanonical source, the Journal of Discourses, when there is a canonical source available). Jacob 2, the only part of the Book of Mormon that even mentions polygamy, says, in essence, "God says polygamy is off limits unless He says otherwise". Doctrine and Covenants 132, recorded in 1843, says, "God says polygamy is allowed now". Official Declaration 1, released in 1890, says, "God says we have to stop practicing plural marriage now, so we will".

 

[ironduck]

So do Mormons read a different version of the bible than the basic one established at the Nicene creed? Lots of stuff was edited out, after all; have you put that back in or taken other stuff out?

 

[farting bob]

I will admit that pretty much all my knowledge of mormons comes from common stereotypes and south park, but even so, it does sound a bit unbelievable. but at least its not on par with scientology for obsurdity.
Any, no questions since i cant think of any that wouldnt have been asked more than once already.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

No, we use the same books of the Bible as Protestants do; we believe that because the Bible has gone through so many edits and translations that it is not a perfectly reliable source of doctrine (see the 8th Article of Faith) and that the other books used by Catholicism, called the Apocrypha, are valuable spiritually but too unreliable to be canon (see Doctrine and Covenants 91). It is the Nicene Creed itself that we don't accept, and like I said, there is no reason why the Nicene Creed should be the ultimate determiner of who is or is not Christian.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

@farting bob: to be honest, any religion, and most atheistic worldviews, seems absurd depending on how you look at it. You have to examine them within their own context for them to make any sense.

 

[ironduck]

No, we use the same books of the Bible as Protestants do; we believe that because the Bible has gone through so many edits and translations that it is not a perfectly reliable source of doctrine (see the 8th Article of Faith) and that the other books used by Catholicism, called the Apocrypha, are valuable spiritually but too unreliable to be canon (see Doctrine and Covenants 91). It is the Nicene Creed itself that we don't accept, and like I said, there is no reason why the Nicene Creed should be the ultimate determiner of who is or is not Christian.

I just don't understand how someone determines which texts should be considered canonical and which should be considered apocryphal - other than by being told by god. There are plenty of texts for both the old and new testaments that are considered apocryphal - supposedly because the various denominations agree with the Nicene creed after all. Many of these seem like they could just as well be true as any of the ones that have been included, but of course they add further to the contradictions of the bible (not that it's lacking that in the first place).

To me, it's quite absurd to pick and choose religious texts in such a manner as to which 'fit' in the story best without being able to know which are right in the first place.