Matt's Mormon Thread

[Neomega]

You’ve brought this question up many times now, and every time it has been ignored. In other words, please drop it. To ask another man about his sexual life with his wife is extremely insulting and disrespectful.

I wasn't asking about his personal sexual life... I don't think he is even married, so step down from the horse, brother.

and-

is it not just as insulting to ask a child if they have masturbated? Or broke the Bonds of chastity.. inferencing masturbation?

 

[Methos]

I was really hoping to move away from this topic, but what the heck.

Methos, there was a point to the whole 'are women allowed..' thing. The point is that if women aren't allowed to masturbate and thereby discover their own bodies they are significantly less likely to have a satisfying sex life.

My statement wasn’t about women in general, but more the disrespect I saw towards the question. One thing I’d like to point out is recall that you are speaking to Christians. Recall that in the Bible it states ‘though shalt not commit adultery’. The Bible also goes on to say that even lusting in ones mind is still adultery. When someone is masturbating, either male or female, are they not lusting after someone? Hence would this not be considered adultery in the mind of a Christian? It is not necessarily that the Christian isn’t attempting to maintain a healthy sex life, but rather they are attempting to follow the Word of the Bible.

I’ve discussed, also online, with another Christian who openly admitted masturbating and that it was okay with God. In his opinion so long as his wife was the subject of his fantasies he was not committing adultery. Thereby, in his mind masturbation along this line would not be considered adultery.

For a god to deny a good sex life in a religion that talks about how life on earth is supposed to be a growth and experience makes absolutely no sense.

To clarify your statement one must add that God does not want us to have a sex life outside of marriage. According to the Bible (I don’t recall the exact scripture) anything done in the bedroom during marriage is considered Holy. Also realize that God does ask that we as people seek growth and experience, but towards becoming better people, not better at having sex.

But of course, I was just told that logic should be discounted since we should just rely on god for guidance.

I agree that this was taking the easy way out, so I understand your sarcasm. IMO I believe people were becoming frustrated at continuing this subject, much as I got bored reading it.

One thing I’d like to point out is that I’m Baptist and this subject was never brought up in our Church. It wasn’t even mentioned. At least the Mormons appear to discuss it with their youth.

Another thing is that I freely admit that I have masturbated and still do so. I probably started in my early teens, which would have been around twenty years ago. Yet after all this time I can honestly admit I don’t believe it helped my sexuality any. Think of it like this. As a kid sex was everything. It was discussed so much at school that every date I went on my focus was on getting lucky that night. Who knows how many women I might have had a better relationship with if I hadn’t merely gone straight for their pants. Did masturbating influence this? Heck yeah. I was lusting after the females and thinking of ways to get lucky with them, as that was all that mattered. I have known a lot of Mormons in my life, they seem to be everywhere. And I can honestly say that the majority of relationships I see them in our actual relationships, not based on sex. How many of my own relationships can I say that about. My wife has asked me how many women I’ve slept with and what their names are. I honestly have no idea on both questions. Did masturbating influence this? IMO yes. Maybe masturbating helps health-wise but not necessarily towards your mental focus.

IMHO I believe masturbation helps influence a male’s sexual drive. How often did I first meet a woman and the first thought I had was ‘man do I want to sleep with her’. From the first time I said hello I was already making my plans.

What if I hadn’t masturbated so much, would let have made my sex drive less? I believe so. Sexual fantasies influence the mind, and the more you think on them the stronger they get.

And here I was doing my best to stay away from this subject. Why as adults do we continue this discussion? The Mormons have already stated it isn’t that big of a part in their beliefs. And any Church you go they are going to, more than likely, oppose masturbation, not just Mormons. So why do we continue to discuss it? IMO its up to you. If you want to, go ahead, it’s your prerogative.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Hey when you guys start discussing religion again, just PM me. Until then I won't be stopping by to wade through six pages of talk of masturbation and orgasms to find a response to my postings.

BTW, there wasn't any responses. I find it interesting how often no one responds to points I have made. See ya.

 

[Neomega]

And any Church you go they are going to, more than likely, oppose masturbation, not just Mormons. So why do we continue to discuss it? IMO its up to you. If you want to, go ahead, it’s your prerogative.

I just don't know too many churches whose priest will actually directly ask people's children if they masturbate.

..and, no, masturbating does not make you a man-whore. A man-whore is a man-whore. If you lost count of how many women you slept with, that was lack of moral fibre perhaps, but since (almost) all men masturbate, and not all of them are man-whores disproves your theory you came up with on-the-fly.

There is nothing wrong with a normal relationship between man and woman to be based on sex. In fact, it is required, even amongst mormon couples. Sex is a very important part. I find it disturbing how people always try to conjure the illusion that a sexless marriage would be more "pure" in it's love. If peopel wanted "pure, loving, sexless" relationships, they could just stay with their mother their whole life.

BTW, Baptist have a really bad record when it comes to divorce. 29% compared to mormons 24% and catholic and atheists 21%... only people with higher divorce rates than baptists are nondenominational christians, at a whopping 34%. The link is about 100 posts back, and the study was funded by a Christain organization.

 

[downtown]

I

BTW, Baptist have a really bad record when it comes to divorce. 29% compared to mormons 24% and catholic and atheists 21%... only people with higher divorce rates than baptists are nondenominational christians, at a whopping 34%. The link is about 100 posts back, and the study was funded by a Christain organization.

interesting. while Mormons have a 24% divorce rate..
Mormons who marry other mormons (and thus, have a similar value system), have a tiny 13% rate...i think you'll be hard pressed to find a group that has a better track record with the tradional family. Even the most anti of anti-mormons will tell you that

I'm done discussing Masterbation now anyways. I can tell when questions are asked in good faith, and when they arent...and im done with it. I'm sorry if anybody else asked questions in the last few pages, as i might have skipped over them. I'll be happy to talk about anything else now

great post btw methos. thanks

 

[Methos]

I also agree that we need to exit from the current topic. My apologies at jumping in at the end.

If the topic is something people truly wish to continue than I would suggest starting a separate thread based off of that subject only. This thread has been hijacked for way too long.

Question on Mormonism:
1. What is the difference between RLDS and LDS? I know the R stands for Reorganized but am curious as to how. What has been changed/adjusted other than having multiple wives?

 

[ironduck]

Methos I'm sorry to hear that you were so obsessed with sex that you didn't care about the people you were with, but that is really your experience. My life has been quite different.

I'm done contributing here, it appears I'm not bringing in anything constructive.

MattBrown: All my questions have been in good faith, however I have gotten a lot of snide remarks lately, including from you, which definitely not have been in good faith.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Back to a non-masturbation question, as quite frankly I don't think we are ever going to get anywhere with more masturbation:

1. The Community of Christ, formerly known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, can trace its history to the period after Joseph Smith's death. At this time there was some confusion as to who would lead the church. The majority of members followed the Quorum of Twelve Apostles, led by Brigham Young, eventually following him to Utah; however, several others claimed leadership, gaining followers; several of these groups still exist but most died off. In about 1860, some former members said that leadership should be hereditary, passing to Joseph Smith III. Thus was born the RLDS Church. They have traditionally been more 'liberal' than the mainstream LDS Church (for example, giving women the priesthood) and recently went even further towards mainstream Christianity, renaming themselves and distancing themselves from Mormonism (for example, they say the Book of Mormon is 'inspired fiction', not scripture). That is a rough overview, but if there any RLDS members here to correct me, they are welcome to.
2. I don't know Joseph Smith's middle name, actually. He isn't canonized; in the church when we say someone is a 'saint' we mean, basically, member of the church, using the same terminology as the New Testament.

@everyone else: Everything I said about masturbation was intended to be in good faith. I am sorry if my tone seemed otherwise. I am not discussing this any more, although I will talk about other aspects of our sexual morality if anyone has actual questions.

 

[downtown]

more on the RLDS-
The church is no longer known as the RLDS. They changed their name to the "Community of Christ", and like Eran said, have really shed most of their Mormon roots. I dont even think they discuss the Book of Mormon in church anymore. I dont think there are too many members, but they have a stronghold in Kirtland Ohio (where the first Mormon temple was built, that the COmmunity of Chirst now owns, which pisses a lot of Mormons off), and in Missouri. I think i've seen a CoC church in DC, but i've never been there

 

[Neomega]

I never had any real interest in mormonism of course, since I find relgion rather distasteful.

All relgions IMO disparage sex, one of the reasons I became an atheist, it wasn't that I wanted to hoe around, it was just that it seemed to me christian girls were way more uptight about sex... and I don't mean like they wouldn't "put out", I mean like, they seemed to disdain the thought of the act, married or not. I got this impression from the way they reacted to sex in culture, more than any personal conversations.

But I have to say, as far as the people go, mormons have always been pretty neat people, and quite opened minded in all actuality.... and smart. And I did not know about the 13% statistic about if both are mormon, but I will admit their families seem stronger, allthough I think this has more to do with being a member of a church that strongly encourages healthy marriages, and offers a lot of support for families, then with their "bonds of chastity" policies.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

There is also a Community of Christ church in San Dimas, CA. I think that worldwide they have about 250,000 members, but they are more like 'Protestant' churches than like the LDS Church.

 

[Newawd]

Holy cheesenuggests!

I leave for a few days, come back, and there are a gazillion pages of people trying to convince us that masturbation is the end all bee all of life.

Yes, I have done it. No, I don't do it. Yes, I have a *great* sex life with my wife (who grew up a mormon). We were both virgins when we got married. Amazingly enough, we managed to get everything figured out.

On a much more general (yet still inclusive) topic, one of the things that is taught in the LDS church is Restraint and Self Control. Morality falls into that category, but so do many other things we believe. I know that there are people out there who would argue that call restraint "repression" and self control "insanity". I'm not talking about anyone in specific, I'm being very general. Fact is, I disagree with them. You could argue til you're blue in the face, and you could get 'studies' that 'prove' both sides of the arguement. I mention this because it's a broader view of where Members of the LDS church are coming from in many of their beliefs.

@Methos: Did you ever find where we had already talked about the 'mormon underwear'? Oh, and by the way, it was nice to see somebody point out that this is not just a mormon belief, but that the bible talks about it too.

@Sir Bugsy: Did you answer my question? I was very specific. I asked how you got around the "Faith can not exist without works" comment made by Martin Luther (didn't you say you were a Lutherine?) as well as in James. Closest I saw to an answer was that James was teaching the Jews. Uh... So James was wrong because he was teaching the Jews?

@Ironduck: LOL! OK. Your comment to Methos is just funny. You almost sound like you're sorry for him because when he was a teenager he was all about getting some action. Hello? Were you ever 17? News flash, men get hormones before they grow brains. If you disagree with me, then I will assume one of two things. 1, you were never a teenager or 2, you are a woman. OK. I have to be careful. We're in a forum so it's hard to tell when people are joking. I'm not trying to insult you, and I'm joking. Honestly though, 99% of the teenage boys I have known in my life are hornier than all get-out. Methos wasn't some sex-crazed perv, he was par for the course.

Morality is an important part of being LDS. I was a virgin at age 23 when I got married. (gasp?!) Not by chance, but by choice. Morality is so important that leaders in our church have advised us (as in 'advice', not 'commandment') to avoid unnecessary encounters with members of the oposite sex where we are alone once we're married. I know that I just threw a bomb, and that many people would scream about how overboard that is. That's why I said it. Yeah, sometimes there's no getting around it, but lets be honest; humans are very sexual. If you want to be faithful to your spouse you really do need to be careful.

@Matt: Where did you find that statistic about only 18% divorce rate amongst members married to members? I wasn't aware of that.

Were there any questions out there that I missed?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

@newawd: It figures. I go on for 3 pages trying to explain our position on masturbation (it's my fault this whole thing went on so long, I think) but you stated it better in half a post. Yeah, it's about choosing to show self-restraint - no one is ever forced to do anything in the Church.

And now I see that masturbation is more common among young LDS men than I realized. I guess it figures, as 'boys will be boys'. I actually remember a talk from a church leader telling someone that 'if you can reach 19 and say you have never masturbated, that makes you pretty unusual'.

 

[Newawd]

@Eran: Interestingly enough, Methos also did a darn good job of explaining.

 

[downtown]

if you google LDS divorce rate, and read the whole study, it mentions that stat. lemme see if i can find the link for you

 

[Newawd]

Wow. That's fascinating. I did NOT know that. Here is the quote:

"This simple statistic obscures an interesting factor: Mormons who marry fellow believers have an extremely low divorce rate: 'A 1993 study published in Demography [magazine] showed that Mormons marrying within their church are least likely of all Americans to become divorced. Only 13 percent of LDS couples have divorced after five years of marriage, compared with 20 percent for religiously homogamist unions among Catholics and Protestants and 27 percent among Jews. However, when a Mormon marries outside his or her denomination, the divorce rate soars to 40 percent -- second only to mixed-faith marriages involving a Jewish spouse (42 percent).' One might speculate that the religious and cultural differences between Mormons and non-Mormons (and between Jews and non-Jews) is often so great that the chances of a successful, harmonious marriage is much reduced."

Only 13%?! I did not know that. That's pretty darn good. Especially considering Mormon women don't... Oh. Never mind. I guess we left that topic behind.

Lol.

 

[Newawd]

OK. I don't mean to toot my own horn here... but... *TOOT*!



There can exist the argument that people who strongly profess to share the beliefs held dear in the LDS church are delusional. That's impossible to prove one way or the other. One thing that you can not dispute is the positive effect that said beliefs have on society. If you have a few minutes, *please* go check out this link. *Tons* of great stuff, even proof that Mormons consume more Jell-o than most people.

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/lds_dem.html

 

[Methos]

I was hoping this thread hadn't just died.

@newawd: I must have missed the previous discussion about the holy underwear. I'll have to see if I can find it. One thing is Sir Bugsy left the conversation and in order to get him back you'll have to pm him. He also got tired of the topic at the time. Wondered where you ran off too.

@Matt: Just a thought, but I wonder if it would be worth it to either post links in the first post for easy reference or add short summaries. Going back over 25 pages takes a while.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

@Methos: This is what I said about temple garments.

There is not much to say, at least here; we consider them sacred and don't like to talk about them in a setting like this, but some things we can discuss.

@newawd: although Jell-o is the official refreshment of firesides in Utah, out here in the East we always go with brownies.

 

[Methos]

As was already mentioned before there are two Sunday School classes in a Mormon Church. How much of those classes are devoted towards the Bible? Don't take that wrong, as I did not mean it offensively.

When I was younger I went to several Mormon Church's. I seem to have had many Mormon friends during my life and the one thing I recall is mostly it was the Book of Mormon that was studied during those classes. I seem to recall that I was more knowledgable about the Bible than any of my Mormon classmates. Granted I was in my teens so it could have been that 'I know it all' syndrome that teenagers have.

Basic question is does the Mormon Church have classes that cater towards the Bible primarily? Would the Church mind non-Mormons attending these classes even though they have no desire to become a Mormon?