Matt's Mormon Thread

[Eran of Arcadia]

Except that we believe he was a prophet, which means he was going by the word of One who truly understands the present and future consequences of everything.

You are essentially saying, "Mormons should be concerned with this world, not what they think will happen in the next". The problem with that is that is the fundamental point of religion (for the most part, anyways), to concern ourselves with something more than what we observe in the here and now.

 

[Neomega]

If so, there is no problem with admitting that you have masturbated if you intend not to do so; if you don't believe, there is no point in even showing up.

Bu they are being made to feel guilty for something that is not wrong! Perfectly natural. Men masturbated before religion. Men maasturbated during religion, men have always masturbated. Beats rape and promiscuity any day of the week as far as morlaity is concerned.

And it's not liek a 13 year old can go, screw you and your religion mom, I wanna masturbate. They can't just leave the church.

masturbation is as harmless as singing a song! You going to tell children to stop singing because it might hurt them in the afterlife. It is a ridiculous mental castration.

But it would be so embarrassing to admit to an old man as a 13 year old you masturbated. No matter how much love you felt in the church, it just would not happen. I bet that old priest knew half the boys who told him "no" were lying.

what a sick game.


I can understand the no premarital sex, as I believed it for a long time myself, but that includes another person, masturbation is a solo excercise, and I dare say, good practice. In terms of living here on earth, human amongst humans, masturbation is harmless, and healthy, and natural. All that other divine aspiration hoopla is not a good reason to deny one's humanity.

And I find it interesting in this discussion, you started with all these logical real world arguments, which I am sure have been explained to you by your elders, but as the conversation wore on, it became less and les about how humans treat eachother, and more and more about religion and tradition.

Which is the real crux, and fallacy of any religion, it starts out encouraging people to join, teaching of love, and kinship, and goodness, to make the world a better place, and then as the member starts to join deeper, it starts to infuse strange rituals and beliefs, which have lots of "logic" tied to them, that continues to claim these values of love, and kinship, and goodness, but when that logic is deconstructed, it becomes exposed for what it really is, a shill game.

There is no reasonable earthly reason for banning people from masturbating. It is a form of control, and nothing else. It is the passing of senseless traditions from father to son, mother to daughter. It is certainly NOT healthy, but yet it continues on, under all these covers of how it is for the better of society.

But the crux of it all comes down to faith. The whole core of logic of any mormon, indeed, any religious person, is not logic at all, but faith, and then all forms of "morality" and "logic" come from faith, which to the rest of the world, is quite useless.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Basically, you are saying that you see no problem with masturbation. Well and good, think what you want. But we think there is a problem with it, 'natural' or no (we will never say it's worse than rape or promiscuity) and thus should be regulated. You can't really say that because you don't think something is wrong, that no one should.

 

[ironduck]

Except that we believe he was a prophet, which means he was going by the word of One who truly understands the present and future consequences of everything.

What about the prophets of the old testament who wrote piles of stuff you disagree with today and don't live by? Why is Joseph Smith somehow flawless when they are not?

You are essentially saying, "Mormons should be concerned with this world, not what they think will happen in the next". The problem with that is that is the fundamental point of religion (for the most part, anyways), to concern ourselves with something more than what we observe in the here and now.

You cannot know what will happen after you die. What you can try to do is to make people happy in this life. How can that be at odds with whatever comes after this life if god is good?

 

[ironduck]

Basically, you are saying that you see no problem with masturbation. Well and good, think what you want. But we think there is a problem with it, 'natural' or no (we will never say it's worse than rape or promiscuity) and thus should be regulated. You can't really say that because you don't think something is wrong, that no one should.

Actually we have scientific research to back up our opinion, what do you have?

But please, please explain what exactly is wrong with masturbation, because you haven't done that yet.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Joseph Smith was speaking in our era, and didn't suffer from having his words orally (last time, I swear) and textually transmitted by people living in other cultures from him. Even so, not everything he said was correct. But at any rate, prophets since him have concurred.

And sure, I don't have a perfect knowledge of what happens when I die. What I have is faith - which I define as 'acting as though you know it is true, even if you don't'. You, I gather (please correct me if I am wrong) act as though there is no life after this. Well and good. But I believe in one and will act as though my actions here affect what happens there. That is, to a large degree, what it means to be religious.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Obviously the Monty Python were totally wrong here:

"There are Jews in the world, there are Buddhists,
there are Hindus and Mormon and then
there are those that follow Mohammed -but-
I've never been one of them.
I am a Roman Catholic
and have been since before I was born,
and the one thing they say about Catholics is
they'll take you as soon as you're warm.
You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on, you're
a Catholic the moment dad came
...Because...
Every sperm is sacred,
every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate. (2x)

Let the heathens spill theirs,
on the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
each sperm that can't be found.
Every sperm is wanted,
every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed,
in your neighborhood.
Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
spill theirs just anywhere
but God loves those who treat their
semen with more care.
(misc choruses)
Every sperm is useful,
every sperm is fine.
God needs everybodies,
mine, and mine, and mine.
Let the pagans spill theirs
on mountain hill and plain.
God shall strike them down for
each sperm that's spilled in vain.
(misc. choruses and finale)"

So, it seems they should swap catholic for mormon here.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Actually we have scientific research to back up our opinion, what do you have?

But please, please explain what exactly is wrong with masturbation, because you haven't done that yet.

Just so you know, you have the burden of proof. I am not trying to convince you that masturbation is wrong; you are trying to convince me that not masturbating is wrong. Scientific research may say that masturbating can be healthy or whatever, but that doesn't mean not doing it is unhealthy. But I believe it to be wrong because I believe God has said it is, and I believe He said so because it reduces sexuality to a mere physical sensation when in the grand scheme of things it is intended to be so much more.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

@thorgalaeg: very funny, I do so love that song (and movie), but the point they were making is that since Catholics are opposed to birth control, that implies that any sex without procreation in mind is sinful. (I am not sayong that is the actual Catholic view, but Monty Python were). We believe sex is important even when children don't result, but even so it should be within marriage. I don't know that the sperm in question must end up inside the vagina, I think that is up to the discretion of the couple involved.

My my, this thread has taken an explicit turn. I'll answer any questions on the Mormon view of kitties, or baby duckies . . . anyone, anyone?

 

[ironduck]

Just so you know, you have the burden of proof.

We have the burden of proof? We already have showed over and over the benefits of masturbation in countless studies over the past 50 years! What more do you want?!

I am not trying to convince you that masturbation is wrong; you are trying to convince me that not masturbating is wrong. Scientific research may say that masturbating can be healthy or whatever, but that doesn't mean not doing it is unhealthy.

Have you paid any attention at all? Two of us have explained many times to you that when people don't masturbate they don't learn as much about their sexuality which limits what they get out of their sexual relationship with their partner which limits the scope of the emotional relationship. These things are connected, it doesn't take a genius to see it!

THEN there is the whole sexual repression and guilt issue and on top of that all the modern knowledge of the positive sides of orgasms.

In return you say 'god says we shouldn't'. Giving no reason why.

But i believe it to be wrong because I believe God has said it is, and I believe He said so because it reduces sexuality to a mere physical sensation when in the grand scheme of things it is intended to be so much more.

No, it does not reduce sexuality, it improves sexuality! For crying out loud, I just explained that over the past two pages. Since you are apparently too lazy to google some research I might do it later, but I just finished cooking dinner and am going to eat now.

 

[Neomega]

you are trying to convince me that not masturbating is wrong. Scientific research may say that masturbating can be healthy or whatever,

No, I am trying to convince you, that an adult telling a child masturbating is wrong, is wrong.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I am not saying that studies don't show that masturbation doesn't have benefits. What I am saying is that you haven't shown me that not masturbating does have clear drawbacks. Heck, I've never felt the least bit 'repressed' for not masturbating, and when I say that masturbation reduces sex to physical sensation I mean it. When people masturbate, they are not usually thinking, "I am exploring myself to learn how to best derive pleasure from sex with another", they are focused on the immediate physical sensation that results. Maybe masturbation increases sexual pleasure with another person, but I am fairly sure that sexual pleasure can be had without masturbation. It just takes sexual experience with the person in question. And I said why I thought God said not to do it. I have had orgasms without masturbating, and will continue to do so, and I am not going to masturbate, so I guess if I go crazy you can say you told me so.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

No, I am trying to convince you, that an adult telling a child masturbating is wrong, is wrong.

We are not saying it is physically harmful, just that it is contrary to the eternal purpose of sex. Guilt usually derives from thinking one thing and doing another, so it is the young Mormons who masturbate, perhaps, who will feel guilty. (Although MattBrown apparently didn't). But those who don't are not going to be warped. And in the Church we do not make a huge deal of it. The purpose of asking if one is obeying the law of chastity is because we believe it to be important, and if one is struggling and wants to obey it more, they can receiev help. Of course we are going to say that what we think is wrong, is wrong.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

In point of fact, in the last 5 hours I have discussed masturbation more than in all my 23 years in the church combined. Like I said, there is not a lot said on the matter, even among those who are most likely to be engaged in it (ie young men), so I think that either a lot of young men are capable of not masturbating or if they do, it is not seen as the end of the world.

In fact, it just occurs to me how little we talked about it: as a missionary, I would teach our sexual morality and explain to potential converts that they would be expected to follow it, then before they officially joined they would be asked by someone else if they intended to follow it, yet we never mentioned masturbation.

 

[Neomega]

In point of fact, in the last 5 hours I have discussed masturbation more than in all my 23 years in the church combined. Like I said, there is not a lot said on the matter, even among those who are most likely to be engaged in it (ie young men), so I think that either a lot of young men are capable of not masturbating or if they do, it is not seen as the end of the world.

and the women?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

The same with them, although I have less direct experience; they are assumed to be capable of making that choice, and exercising self-control, and if not, it's not the end of the world.

 

[Neomega]

I am not saying that studies don't show that masturbation doesn't have benefits. What I am saying is that you haven't shown me that not masturbating does have clear drawbacks. Heck, I've never felt the least bit 'repressed' for not masturbating, and when I say that masturbation reduces sex to physical sensation I mean it. When people masturbate, they are not usually thinking, "I am exploring myself to learn how to best derive pleasure from sex with another", they are focused on the immediate physical sensation that results. Maybe masturbation increases sexual pleasure with another person, but I am fairly sure that sexual pleasure can be had without masturbation. It just takes sexual experience with the person in question. And I said why I thought God said not to do it. I have had orgasms without masturbating, and will continue to do so, and I am not going to masturbate, so I guess if I go crazy you can say you told me so.

How do you know what people think when they masturbate?

Look, the attitude towards sex, is hostile. From outside looking in, it's hostile.
Same with the attitude towards, beer, and smoking, and caffiene.

It's hostile. No thanks, mormonism not for me, I like to be free with my sexuality.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

As a Mormon, on the inside looking in, I see no hostility towards sex (which we say is a good thing), or caffeine (which we don't prohibit), or even beer and smoking, which we say is bad but don't sit around villifying. How do I know what people think when they masturbate? I can't be sure, but I have been around young men my age when they talk about masturbation. I get the idea.

You don't have to hate something to avoid it. And placing limits on your behavior is not always a bad thing.

 

[Neomega]

As a Mormon, on the inside looking in, I see no hostility towards sex (which we say is a good thing), or caffeine (which we don't prohibit), or even beer and smoking, which we say is bad but don't sit around villifying. How do I know what people think when they masturbate? I can't be sure, but I have been around young men my age when they talk about masturbation. I get the idea.

Young men, do not talk about what they think when they masturbate.



Young men don't even discuss it.

Only on forums is there a chance, and even then... well lets just say this thread has become a tad extraordinary.

you are not the sex hater.... not yet, but when you are 50, and you see all those mormon kids doing things you disapprove of, and here rumors of them doing things you could not engage in, you will decide it is time to lay down the law, and let them know it is not acceptable. Then, then you will officially be a sex-hater.

Which reminds me, when I went to a mormon girl's house, we (a bunch of us) watched a movie, it had keanu Reeves in it, a shakespeare movie... any ways.. they started to kiss... and she actually fast forwarded through it... I protested... "I don't need to see that sick stuff!" she said...

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

No, if I as a 50 year old Mormon tried to 'lay down the law' by telling the kids these days what to do or not do, I would be overstepping my bounds. In the church you can't just tell everyone else what they should be doing. Though I'm glad you at least know how I will be at 50.

And it's not what the young men say directly, but the tone of voice and the flippancy with which they regard masturbation that makes me think that their true motivation is just self-pleasure.

And you seem to have met some oddball Mormons. Heck, she could have just shut her eyes, no need to fast forward. It is a matter of choice how much explicitness one is willing to see in a movie, there are no firm rules.

You know, by now, this thread has pretty much become each person shooting off their opinion for the sake of it, as though they were alone, to hear themselves talk. It's like . . . it's like . . .

something . . .