Maya Redesign

[NKN]

*Control Mexico, Central America, Gran Columbia and a railroaded canal in 1810AD.

I think is way too late. This would require the Mayans to live half a millennium after their real-life demise, and then to conquer far more territory than in real-life.

Most good UHVs are what the civ really did accomplish, or nearly did. I don't think the goal (and most of the others) meets this criterion.

Having to control half the buildings in the Americas sounds great, OTOH.

 

[Sanguivorant]

Having to control half the buildings in the Americas...

How exactly would that work? So is this victory condition essentially won by having more developed cities? Also, who would provide the competition in building control? Most American civilizations appear a millennium after the Mayan spawn. By that time, Maya will just have more buildings by being the earliest civ to develop, provided it does not lose any of its cities.

 

[JiimBV]

Wasn't discovering Astronomy part of the UHV for vanilla RFC?

I think it was the UP: Power of Astronomy = "-40% research before discovering Astronomy". But it might've also been before the Renaissance? Can't remember for sure.

One suggestion I have is to move the stone to the Chichen Itza tile, and have it prebuilt with a holkan and a spear as citis said. This balances the production in Mayan territory somewhat, allows the Temple of Kukulkan to be built in its historical location, and provides even more warfare for Maya! It would also force the player to make an interesting choice: take Chichen Itza first for the stone and lesser production, or Huaxayacac for the far superior city placement?

Unfortunately I won't be able to play the new revision until I've finished the Indonesian UHV... my turn times are ridiculous by 1795 despite half the world collapsing. I don't quite understand that.

 

[Rorgloin]

I think that the Mayan deforestation of their lands should be included in some form.

 

[Oregon Lee]

Have 2/3 of UHV done by the time the second UHV is finished

 

[citis]

Most good UHVs are what the civ really did accomplish, or nearly did. I don't think the goal (and most of the others) meets this criterion.

Well, this doesn't apply to maya Try it yourself:

A more interesting UHV should reflect the struggle to survive against colonisation, the Panama canal and Columbia (Mayan rebirth). Moreover, Mayas tried to conquer Aztecs and vice versa. So it is quite sure that if Mayas had survived the conquerors, then they would control Mexico, continental central America and Columbia. The goal could be "control the panama canal by 1810AD" meaning a new world wonder or a rairoaded city/fort but it seems too little to me.

How exactly would that work? So is this victory condition essentially won by having more developed cities? Also, who would provide the competition in building control? Most American civilizations appear a millennium after the Mayan spawn. By that time, Maya will just have more buildings by being the earliest civ to develop, provided it does not lose any of its cities.

That's why it should be inside your core area. Historical cities will count against you. You have three cities at most that their population and building should exceed Aztec, Inca population and infrastucture. Given that every city has granary and that there are two palaces, and that other cities are 7 (three aztec, three inca and tucume), this is a total of 9 buildings and about 20 population. It seems fine.

Being first to discover Astronomy is an interesting alt-hist goal.

True, it should be interesting.

 

[BenZL43]

Here’s a review.

1) Danibaan works! Mayan game is more interesting now. I think Danibaan could have some food resource that is safe enough from the attacks by Jaguars and DSoldiers; and since the Dye and Corn “flipped” to Tenochtitlan.

2) I think the number of barbarian attacks, especially from the West, should be regulated. I got GG by 1000s AD , I think.

3) Add Teotihuacan in the Tenochtitlan tile, or 1N 1E of it. It would lost as Aztec spawn, but that’s historical and add a new interesting color to the game, like the Danibaan.

Although it is a subject of debate whether Teotihuacan was the center of a state empire, its influence throughout Mesoamerica is well documented; evidence of Teotihuacano presence can be seen at numerous sites in Veracruz and the Maya region. The Aztecs may have been influenced by this city.

It is believed that Teotihuacan had a major influence on the Preclassic and Classic Maya, most likely by conquering several Maya centers and regions, including Tikal and the region of Peten, and influencing Maya culture.

 

[BenZL43]

and here's my CNM proposal for the (19,35) [Monte Albán/Oaxaca]

#Settle the Tile
Barbs.py and Maya: rename Danibaan to Danni Báa [tzapotēcatlahtōlli part]
Aztec: Huaxyacac (Done)
Spain: Oaxaca (Done)

#Conquer the Tile
Aztec: Danni Báa OR Monte Albán to Ātzompan
European
1) Danni Báa OR Ātzompan to Monte Albán (Partially done)
2) Huaxyacac to Oaxaca (Done)

 

[Leoreth]

Here’s a review.

1) Danibaan works! Mayan game is more interesting now. I think Danibaan could have some food resource that is safe enough from the attacks by Jaguars and DSoldiers; and since the Dye and Corn “flipped” to Tenochtitlan.

I don't think the city should be able to grow large, especially after the Aztec spawn. It's a pity though that the AI doesn't seem to focus on culture at all.

2) I think the number of barbarian attacks, especially from the West, should be regulated. I got GG by 1000s AD , I think.

Barbarians don't contribute to GG points, so you got that from fighting the Zapotecs alone. Since the GG goal will be removed anyway, I don't think that is a problem.

3) Add Teotihuacan in the Tenochtitlan tile, or 1N 1E of it. It would lost as Aztec spawn, but that’s historical and add a new interesting color to the game, like the Danibaan.

Yeah, but what would it add to the game?

and here's my CNM proposal for the (19,35) [Monte Albán/Oaxaca]

#Settle the Tile
Barbs.py and Maya: rename Danibaan to Danni Báa [tzapotēcatlahtōlli part]
Aztec: Huaxyacac (Done)
Spain: Oaxaca (Done)

#Conquer the Tile
Aztec: Danni Báa OR Monte Albán to Ātzompan
European
1) Danni Báa OR Ātzompan to Monte Albán (Partially done)
2) Huaxyacac to Oaxaca (Done)

That's brilliant, thanks for the research.

I wouldn't even have thought that there is a Nahuatl wiki.

 

[mrrandomplayer]

I think that the gems 1SE of Tikal (the capital) should be core territory. There were more Mayan cities in modern Belize than in quite a few areas of the Yucatan.

 

[Leoreth]

What gems?

 

[mrrandomplayer]

I meant silver.

 

[Leoreth]

Oh okay. Now I know what your plan is.

 

[Titoudeff]

I hope that the Pyramid of Kukulcan will still be buildable in Chichén Itzá.

 

[Leoreth]

Was it ever? The spot is just a bad location for production, stone or no stone.

 

[BenZL43]

Yeah, but what would it add to the game?

Personally, I think after I gain Oaxaca, the game start to become more boring and less historical; it feels like the old Mayan game with random barbarians Dog Soldiers (and Jaguar, which is Aztec royal unit, btw -_-) every few turns... with Teotihuacan, I'm not certain, but I'm sure it'll bring more flavor anyway like what Danibaan did.

I also don't like settling on the Chitzen Itza spot. It's just.. not optimal for me. Too close to Tikal. I don't know about you guys; but the AI loves to settle there. Teotihuacan could be the 3rd city for Maya after Yax Mutal and Dani Baan.

That's brilliant, thanks for the research. I wouldn't even have thought that there is a Nahuatl wiki.

Your welcome. However, one problem here: Monte Alban is actually a ruin since 1000AD. We can't properly simulate the fall of Monte though. Since the valley of Oaxaca was controlled by Mixtec people after the Zapotecs falls or fading, I think if the Maya should settle there, the name would be Ñuu Nunduva, a Mixtec name for the Oaxaca.



By the way, how about making Oaxaca core of Maya, x turns after Maya successfully defeated the Zapotec? (dynamic core, just like the Spain case)
Also, renaming the two Holkan in Danibaan to Zapotec Holkan? I also found out that the Zapotec are incapable of training new Holkan. The only unit they can built are Warriors, and the building they built is Ikhanda (which can't be helped, I guess)

 

[Leoreth]

So is Tikal, I wouldn't worry about that.

 

[BenZL43]

I presume that is a reply for the Ñuu Nunduva suggestion?

 

[Leoreth]

More to the general ahistoricity of Monte Alban remaining intact. I could add the name to the Mayan settler map regardless of course.

 

[BenZL43]

Oh! So what do you think about the Teotihuacan suggestions?

By the way, I got "Civics Outdated" penalty while playing as Maya. Could it be because I'm staying at Pantheon, while the rest of the world is like Scholasticism or Organized Religion? If I'm changing the civics to Scholasticism, for example, will I get the +25%GP effect as well?

Also that the AI seems to value AP very little. By the time Catholicism spread to Mesoamerica, I still be able to build the AP.. and Yax Mutal become Catholic holy city