MB4 - GOTM24 Redux [civ3] Roster A

[Sir Bugsy]

Alan,
I agree with your two task force assessment. The first task force coming from Shimazu/Chosogabe lands and the second coming from our core. I think they will need to land close to each other so that they can support each other and combine together. The thought here is an Omaha/Utah beach scenario. Approximately 10-20 tiles apart. Far enough to create indecision on the part of the AI, and close enough to establish a wide beachhead and provide support. We may want to include a settler or two in the task forces. By this time we should be in a raze nearly everything mode. Obviously, we'll want to keep a city with a valuable wonder, but in general we will be close to the domination limit and will need to be careful not to go over that.

Bugs

 

[smackster]

Don't forget to use the Smackster worker beach head for the initial counter attack. We should capture enough workers when we get into the Baekje land (and they are essentially useless) and just throw them into the Han land, when our initial attack is made they will waste their counter attack on our workers, trick that never fails.

Also have some settlers ready to push culture back, every extra space of movement for our Cavalry will help.

Smackster

 

[AlanH]

/b]Approximately 10-20 tiles apart.[/b]

We could use Sagimahara as our west coast jump-off point. It's near enough to our cores, and about three turns from the northern end of Han territory. We'll need a good sized galleon fleet in both locations so that we can set up ship relay strings across the two ocean crossings. Then we can have our two forces sweep south through the Han territory on the east and west sides of the continent. If we develop the second force fast enough it may be able to help to mop up the Baekje before heading south.

Remember that when we are on that continent we shall have no free barracks for healing, as I believe Sun Tzu is only effective on its home continent. So we shall have to keep or build a city or two near the front lines as we proceed and ensure they have existing or rushed barracks. Smackster's settlers are obviously the way forward here, as we can raze enemy cities and keep some of the ones we create for culture pushes. Barracks can be rushed in those towns without waiting for resistance to end.

It seems likely that we'll be into the age of steam by the time we get to the Han. If so, their rails may not be fully developed, as the AI tends to focus on rails for local imprrovements rather than inter-city networking. So when we are setting up our human shield we also should maintain a work force to build rails, to ensure we can feed reinforcements forward quickly.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Pre-flight - Mapstat says we have 733 tiles until domination. Not a lot. We will need to raze some Chosogabe cities. Change Edo to a settler and rush for 52G. Going to use him to resettle the island off our west coast.

MM a few cities, change a few build orders, but in general things are looking very good.

IBT – Chosogabe have two ships sailing down the northern coast.

1. 960 AD – Position fleet for D-Day.

IBT – Chosogabe are building Smith’s. How nice. Please finish it soon so that we may capture it.

2. 970 AD – Land our force of 26 units and 2 cannon on Chosagabe turf. Deploy the workers for bait. Head back across the inland sea for reinforcements.
IBT – Chosagabe lose six units attacking our landing force. We lose one musket.
Han demands a tribute of TM & 80G. Since I don’t want a war yet, I give in.

3. 980 AD – Siege of Takamatsu: Cannons take out its cathedral.
4/4 cav retreats from 4/4 Musket (-1hp)
4/4 cav kills 3/3 musket (-1hp)
4/4 cav kills 3/3 musket (-2hp)
4/4 cav kills 3/4 musket (-1hp)
4/4 cav killed by 4/4 cav (-1hp)
4/4 Cav killed by 4/4 cav (redlined)
4/4 cav killed by 3/4 cav (no loss)
4/4 cav killed by 3/4 cav (relined & promotes)
4/4 cav kills 3/4 cav (-2hp & promotes)
4/4 cav kills 2/5 cav (no loss)
5/5 Kensai kills 1/4 cav (-1hp) Takamatsu is ours. 5 slaves.

Outside the city: 4/4 cav kills 4/4 cav (-2hp)
4/4 cav kills 4/4 cav (no loss & promotes)
3/3 cav killed by 4/4 cav (redlined)
4/4 cav kills 1/4 cav (-1hp)

Our West Coast Island is infested with two Shimazu units. Time for another war?

IBT – Nothing

4. 990 AD – Siege of Imabari: 4/4 Cav kills 4/4 Musket (redlined)
4/4 cav killed by 4/4 musket (redlined)
4/5 cav kills 3/3 musket (redlined)
4/4 cav kills 1/4 musket. Imabari is razed.

Setting up for the next city.
Buy Physics from Shimazu for 1131G & WM. Han would have sold it for 1133G & WM.
Chosogabe won’t discuss the loss of their one-tile city.

IBT – Chosogabe lands three units on our coast. We lose two cavs to counterattack.
I won’t be able to get units to the CHosogabe intruders this turn, so I’ll strike hard enough to get a good peace treaty.

5. 1000 AD – A new millennium.
4/4 cav kills 4/4 cav in the open.

Siege of Sukomo: 4/4 cav retreats from 4/4 musket (-2hp)
4/4 cav kills 3/3 musket (-1hp)
4/4 cav retreats from 2/3 musket (no loss)


Siege of Muroto: 4/4 cav killed by 4/4 musket (no loss)
4/4 cav kills 4/4 musket (-1hp & promotes)
5/5 cav retreats from 3/3 musket (-1hp)
4/4 cav kills 3/3 musket (redlined)
5/5 cav kills 2/3 musket (-3hp) Muroto is ours.

Sign peace with Chosogabe and get Theory of Gravity for 45gpt.

IBT – Chosogabe demands that we leave…OK, but two can play that game.
Shimazu lands a settler on OUR western island

6. 1010 AD – Chosogabe will not move from our lands. I feel compelled to defend our honor, so I declare war on them.
While kicking them out of our lands, a great leader arrives.

IBT – Shimazu build a city on our island.
Chosogabe counterattack kills one cav.

7. 1020 AD – Rush Newton’s in Ina, right next to our capitol. I would have gone for the capitol, but I couldn’t get there this turn. This is so no one else gets it. We have at two civs, Chosogabe and Han in the Industrial Age.

On the plains of Chosogabe, another great leader appears as a cav kills a cav.
An army is built and cavs are loaded into it.

Siege of Sukomo: 4/4 cav kills 4/4 musket (-2hp)
4/4 Cav kills 4/4 musket (-2hp)
4/4 cav kills 3/3 musket (-2hp) Sukomo is razed.

Siege of Matsumaya: 4/4 cav retreats from 4/4 musket (no loss)
4/4 cav kills 4/4 musket (-2hp)
5/5 cav retreats from 3/3 musket (-1hp)

We can buy Magnetism right now, but that will make the light house expire.

IBT – Shimazu demands that we leave.
Baejke sail up to our west coast near our Sagamihara rally point.
Chosogabe counters with one cav who kills a cav in our stack. He didn’t go for my worker bait
Netwon’s completes in Ina

8. 1030 AD – Siege of Matsumaya (part 2): 13/13 army kills 2/3 musket (no loss)
Switch to Heroic Epic in the capitol.
5/5 cav kills 2/3 musket (no loss). Matsumaya falls

I demand that Shimazu leave our land, and he declares war.

IBT – Shimazu lands two Sams on our shores.

9. 1040 AD – Siege of Kochi: 13/13 Army kills 4/4 musket (-6hp)
4/4 cav killed by 3/3 musket (redlined & promotes)
4/4 cav retreats from 3/3 musket (-1hp)
4/4 cav killed by 3/3 musket (redlined)
4/4 cav kills 2/3 musket (redlined)
5/5 cav kills 2/3 musket (no loss)
5/5 cav kills 2/3 musket (-1hp) Kochi and the Sistine Chapel are ours.

Shimazu has a redlined Sam left in our lands. He can hit several unguarded cities if he wants to.

IBT – Edo is captured
We lose a cav in Kochi.
Lose a cav on the mountain outside of Shimazu’s city on our western island.

10. 1050 AD – Outside Kochi: 4/4 cav kills 4/4 cav (no loss & promotes)

Siege of Tokushima: 4/4 cav retreats from 3/3 musket (-1hp)
4/4 cav kills 3/3 musket (no loss & promotes)
4/4 cav kills 3/3 musket (-2hp)
5/5 cav kills 2/3 musket (-2hp) Tokushima is ours.

Edo is recaptured.

Score: 2890

After action report: Once again, not the best set of turns. I should have started a war with Shimazu much sooner.
Allowing Chosogabe into our backyard was more
Chosogabe is still not talking. When they do we need to grab their one-tile city.

I’ve been moving our fleet up the inland sea towards Shimazu lands. We’ll probably have a large enough force to land on their island.

I haven’t asked the Mori fellow to leave our lands yet.

Sagamihara is the rally point for the western task force. Our most eastern city has been a rally point for the Shimazu invasion force.

Mapstat says we have 669 tiles till Domination.

Good luck Alan.

Bugs

>> Save - 1050 AD<<

 

[AlanH]

Good work Bugs. It's a bit late for me now, so I'll get it and try to play by Saturday night. I have a heavy re-plumbing commitment during the day, so lt's hope I can get that done with no complications.

Roster:

Karasu On Deck
Smackster
Sir Bugsy Off watch
AlanH UP

Firaxis Score: 2890 at 1050 AD

 

[AlanH]

Bugs

Any idea how many units Shimazu had in place when they built that new city on our western isle?

 

[Sir Bugsy]

If I remember, they had two on the island and brought one with the settler. They landed their Samurai in taking Edo. They should have a Kensai and a footman, if my memory is operating properly.

 

[AlanH]

I've played 8 turns.

So far, I took out the Shimazu city on "our" island (two flagged footmen) and I've pillaged and besieged the Chosogabe capital down to pop 5 and a single musket that I red-line every turn with cannon. They've just started to talk to us again, but refuse to give their island city. They've moved from "They'll be insulted ..." to "I doubt ...", though in the last two moves.

As this session is mainly about building up invasion forces, and we have few upgrades to fund now, I bought Banking and Magnetism to take us into the Industrial Age, and we are researching Steam at max. to get the production boost and movement flexibility. The Han has just learnt steam, the others are either behind, or only ahead of us by the optional medieval techs.

I'll finish my remaining two turns and post today as soon as possible. The plumbing didn't go smoothly yesterday - a couple of pipes were too short

 

[Karasu]

Looks like good going, !
I haven't had a chance to be too active this week, as I caught a bad cold which made me totally voiceless (I also had two meetings with customers, but that's another story... ).

As my only comment right now, I suspect that bombing the single-tile island city should help the Chosogabe give it away (not sure, though).

 

[AlanH]

@karasu: Sorry to hear about your cold - not good when you have to deal with customers as well!

Yes, I'd have liked to try bombing the island, but we had nothing to do it with until I went for Magnetism, and then I still needed to build frigates for the job. As I could see that Chosogabe was softening I waited another turn, and he gave it to me. I then took his capital (losing a couple of elites on the way )

Here's the SAVE. [Edited - Now on the Uploads directory].

Detailed turn log will follow. Current status is:

- Chosogabe is no more. Four left.

- We are at war with Shimazu, he will only give 109 cash for peace - no techs or cities. He has been making attempts to sink our ships and has landed troops on our Chosogabe territories. I have repelled invasions, and so far our Cannon Kublai have sunk his Frigates when they have attacked. He has a Cannon Kublai plus Frigate escort off Sanda, on our south coast island. He could have up to 4 units on board. I have moved some Cavalry into position to ferry across, and there are two Cannon Kublai ready next turn to get reinforcements over to the island. Could get a bit messy and we may lose a city. We don't want to allow him to get a strong foothold there, so you should review the availability of additional troops to counter-attack.

- Han has Steam and Nationalism. Shimazu has Nationalism, so we are up against rifles. I have been building some cannon for use in softening up rifles to improve cavalry survival rates. We are researching Steam at full speed.

- Invasion forces are building in the northern cities and in Sagamihara on our west coast. I've been moving some Cannon Kublai along the north coast towards Sagamihara, and building a harbour there for junk upgrades and for repairs.

- I suggest we keep the three tile island off our west coast fully covered to avoid any more incursions. It's easier to keep trespassers off than to have to recapture it. We have a city, a worker and a Cavalry unit there currently.

- We are building the cavalry, cannon, transports and settlers for our invasion force, but we need more workers for human shield duties. Our existing workers should really be kept available for rail networking when we get Steam shortly.

Firaxis Score is 3240

Roster

Karasu UP, if his cold will stand the pace!
Smackster On deck
Sir Bugsy
AlanH Back to the plumbing

 

[AlanH]

Preflight
Objectives:
- Harass Chosogabe's capital until he gives up his one tile island, then take his capital.
- Recover our west coast island from Shimazu
- Build invasion forces for Shimazo and the other continent.

Some build orders modified. Slider set to 9.0.1 for extra cash.

Next Turn
Chosogabe junks head for home
Shimazu junk salis from the west coast island
Muroto flips to Chosogabe, taking an Elite Samurai with it
Han completes Magellan in Changdu

Turn 1. 1060 AD
5/5 cavalry kills 3/3 musket in Muroto and takes it back. Decides to raze it. We have a settler in a junk close by. Unload settler.
4/4 Kublai junk sinks 3/3 Chsogabe junk
Pillage Nihama's tiles. Move all but one unit out of each ex-Chosogabe city to minimise flip losses.

IBT
Han frigate movements round our southern cape.
Baekje junk sighted off west coast.

Turn 2. 1070 AD
Build New kita-ku on the site of Muroto. Land two more cavalry on the west coast island mountain. Two Shimazu junks sighted off Myankonojo

IBT
Shiazu naval movements.

Turn 3. 1080 AD
Complete pillaging around Nihama. Pop is still 12, but his grain stores will be emptying fast. Move eight cannon into position to bombard it.
At Omata - the Shimazu west coast island city:
5/5 cavalry -> 4/5 kills 3/3 flagged footman
4/4 cavalry -> 4/5 kills 3/3 flagged footman, razes the city

IBT
Chosogabe lands troops near our siege force.

Turn 4. 1090 AD
Bombard Nihama (now pop 11) and count the defenders - three 3/3 muskets knocked down to 1/3, 1/3, 2/3
5/5 cavalry -> 3/5 kills 2/3 musket
4/4 cavalry -> 4/4 kills 1/3 musket leaving one red lined musket

Chosogabe invaders are 4/4 cavalry. 4/4 samurai archer, 4/4 kensei.
5/5 cavalry -> 4/5 kills 4/4 cavalry
4/4 cavalry dies vs 4/4 kensei -> 2/4
5/5 cavalry -> 5/5 kills 4/4 samurai archer
4/4 cavalry -> 4/4 kills 2/4 kensei

Chosogabe still won't talk.

Build New Kasugai on west coast island. Decide to buy Han's map fro 144 gold + our map. Sell it on to Baekje for 20 gold + map. The map fills in a lot of explored ocean with no new land masses, no signs of rails anywhere.

IBT
Baekje ships heacing for our western shores.

Turn 5. 1100 AD
Bombard Nihama, Pop 10 - red line single musket again. Still won't talk.

Turn 6. 1110 AD
Bombard Nihama, Pop 9, still not talking.

Shimazu will talk to us now, but only offer gold for peace.
I decide to buy Magnetism and Banking and get into the Industrial Age to see how far behind we are, as we don't have a pressing need for our cash mountain. Han sells them for 2138 gold + map. We also sell him silks for 43 gpt. We have three 18 gpt lux deals ending next turn. Han has Nationalism as his only IA tech.
While I'm spending all our cash I rush a temple in Tokomitsu and upgrade 8 Kublai Junks to Cannon Kublai (carrying capacity 4, range 8).
Set sliders at 0.9.1 for Steam in 11 turns @ +4 gpt.

IBT
Shimazu frigate attacks Kublai junk and sinks.

Turn 7. 1120 AD
Upgrade 9 Kublai Junks and one vanilla Junk to Cannon Kublai
Bombard Nihama (pop 8) down to pop 6 and destroy its walls. Still one redlined musket. Still refuses to talk.
Bombard 3/3 Shimazu junk off our west coast -> 1/3

IBT
Chosogabe asks for peace.He won't give techs or his city so I politely tellhim to stuff his peace where the sun don't shine, and offer to bomb him into the stone age.
Shimazu Cannon Kublai spotted off our southern coast.

Turn 8. 1130 AD
Junk sinks Shimazu redlined junk off west coast.
Han now has Steam, won;t sell it. Our lux deals are ripe for renewal. We get 63 gpt + incense for wines, wool and dyes.
Build New Ichinomiya in the southern unclaimed territory.
Shimazu has Nationalism, won't sell for peace.
Just as well we did the incense deal, as we are suffering fom loss of war happiness. Slider to 0.8.2 for Steam in 11 turns.

IBT
Shimazu gets busy:
His frigate sinks when it attacks our Cannon Kublai
His frigate sinks our junk
He lands a settler and a cavalry in the northern space on the Chosogabe lands and founds Omata - deja vu!
He lands 2 cavalry next to Tokushima, and next to our siege team.
He completes Smiths in Kunamoto

Turn 9. 1140 AD
5/5 cavalry -> 1/5 kills 3/3 cavalry and destroys Omata

5/5 cavalry -> 4/5 kills 3/3 invading cavalry
4/4 cavalry -> 4/5 kills 3/3 invading cavalry

Chosogabe will now give us Tosashimizu for peace. No techs, no cash, but we'll take it. Now we can reinforce our reputation for ruthless deal-breaking by taking out his capital. Only fly in the ointment is his defenders from the island city are now in Nihama and we've already used up our cannon with the usual bombardment. Could wait until next turn, but we'll be auto-ejected, so I decide to finish the job now.

13/13 Cavalry army -> 4/13 kills 3/3 musket
4/4 cavalry ->3/4 kills 3/3 musket
5/5 cavalry dies vs. 1/3 musket -> 2/4
5/5 samurai dies vs. 2/4 musket ->2/5
5/5 cavalry > 4/5 kills 2/5 musket and takes Nihama. pop 2.
Chosogabe is no more.

Diplo: Baekje has Navigation and wants Banking and Physics, but we don't need Navigation, so no deal.

IBT
Shimazu frigate sinks attacking our Cannon Kublai
Shimazu Frigate and junk arrive off Sanda.

Turn 10. 1150 AD
Rush a Cannon Kublai in New Nagoya to assist with reinforcing the Sanda island. Upgrade a Junk on the island.

Firaxis Score at 1150 AD = 3240

See previous post for an end of sequence summary and the Save.

Note we are 568 tiles from Domination, which we don't want. It's still a long way to go, but worth keeping an eye on.

Here's a snapshot of F3:

 

[Karasu]

Looks like good steady progress

Got the save (and my voice ).

 

[AlanH]

Just remembered - I left a settler on a convenient tile on the southern end of the main island to fill in our cultural border down there.

 

[Karasu]

Ok.

As a general planning note, I think we really need a lot more cannons now.
I would like to slow down building Cavalry and focus on (some) Muskets, and mainly on cannons and workers.

Then we will have to decide on our research path.
I was (wishfully) thinking of something like Electricity - Scientific Method (assuming we can trade for Medicine), then straight to Mass Production (trading or extorting Industrialization and Replaceable Parts in the meantime).

 

[AlanH]

I agree. I was using semi-corrupt cities to try to produce some cannon, but I think we should raise the priority now. A few more muskets would be OK, though I think we are best off with a bunch of strategically placed cavalry for homeland defence, and we already have 16 units with defence = 4 to provide initial cover for our invasion forces. That's 5 Samurai, 5 muskets and 6 footmen to upgrade to muskets.

Here are some thoughts on strategy. Feel free to disagree:

Techs:
We are going to have to rely more on self-research, so some of our core cities also need to build libraries asap. Our immediate priorities have to be Steam for communications and productivity, Electricity-> Medicine-> Scientific Method (pre-build ToE if at all possible, or get a leader to build it) and Replaceable Parts for Artillery. We can ignore Nationalism unless someone gives it to us for free.

War:
We've been assembling a second invasion force in Sagamihara, but having seen our build rate, we can't really build two separate attack forces without compromising both of them. Given Shimazu's proximity I think it would be best to focus as much offensive power on the Shimazu as possible. We need to keep a mobile force of maybe 10-15 cavalry deployed for homeland security, but we could move all the cannons and the rest of our cavalry north. With forty cavalry plus future reinforcements, plus our 17 cannon plus a few more, we should be able to take out Shimazu and Mori, and then move on to Baekje. Realistically, I doubt if we are going to make major inroads into the Han until we get to artillery and tanks.

Defence:
A Cannon Kublai with four invading units can probably take a city unless we build multiple muskets or rifles in each coastal town. So I favour not bothering with muskets and rifles for homeland defence, but instead rely on killing invading forces on the first turn that they land. The AI are remarkably single-minded about always going for the same perceived weak spot, and they seldom land more than one ship-load at a time. Until we get our rail network built we can maintain a couple of clusters of undefended coastal bait cities so that we can predict the most likely invasion sites, and use the Cannon Kublai we currently have off the north west and south coasts as early warning outposts to try to detect approaching invaders. That way we can maintain a relatively small cavalry force to pick them off rather than have to cover the whole of our extensive territory. Once we have rails we don't care where they land within reason.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

ToE is a must. I'd say a pre-build needs to get started soon.

I think Alan is right about two invasion forces. However, we may want to launch a cross channel invasion soon, just to get a beachhead while we are fighting cavs v. rifles. Cavs v. infantry is just plain ugly.

 

[AlanH]

I think that with a concentrated effort we could maybe kill the Shimazu (and Mori) in less than 20 turns and still reach the Baekje before they get to Infantry. They haven't reached the Industrial Age yet. Two slower wars with split forces could see us fighting infantry on all fronts.

We don't stand much chance of hitting the Han before Infantry anyway, hence my thoughts of using tanks against them.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Yes, we need to plan on hitting the Han with tanks. We don't even need to make a large dent in Baejke. We just need a beach head of 3-5 cities. I think I would go for such a beachhead before finishing off the Mori.

If this was a Bugsy solo game, I would take the following approach (and please shoot this apart as much as you like)

1. Conquer most of Shimazu main island, looking for an opportunity to get their one tile city in a peace treaty.

2. Invade northern portion of Baejke homeland establishing a secure beachhead.

3. Go max science for Motor Transport. While waiting for MT, take out Mori and Shimazu.

4. Pick up ToE and Hoover's with pre-builds. Consider using spies to steal techs.

Hopefully, with some discussion we can develop a road map on how we can wrap this game up quickly.

Bugs

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
Yes, we need to plan on hitting the Han with tanks. We don't even need to make a large dent in Baejke. We just need a beach head of 3-5 cities. I think I would go for such a beachhead before finishing off the Mori.

That would be ideal if we can accomplish it with the resources we have/can build.

...
1. Conquer most of Shimazu main island, looking for an opportunity to get their one tile city in a peace treaty.

Agreed, but then why not keep going? We've done that with the others, and that way we can kill them before we face Infantry there.

2. Invade northern portion of Baejke homeland establishing a secure beachhead.

Good plan if we have enough resources.

3. Go max science for Motor Transport. While wait for MT, take out Mori and Shimazu.

My concern is that if we divert half our cavalry to the other continent now then I think we'll get bogged down in Shimazu and find that they will be defending with Infantry before we finish them. We'll then have two fronts to equip with tanks in order to finish the job. I'm a big fan of focusing on one job at a time, and my original suggestion for two task forces was not intended to open two fronts st once, but rather to prepare for a two-pronged attack on the other continent. However, I think it's maybe premature to reserve cavalry for the second task force right now.

4. Pick up ToE and Hoover's with pre-builds. Consider using spies to steal techs.

Agreed on the wonders, but I've previously found espionage disproportionately expensive and risky in my own games and gave up using it. I'll be interested to see how you pros work it.

Hey! I'm the least experienced player here, so I'll be very happy to be shown how to do it another way.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I don't know about being the least experienced player here. I got this game as a Father's Day gift, so I just passed the six month mark.

You are right about not spliting our forces. The concentrated force will fair much better against Shimazu.

So the question is: How much force will we need to take out Mori? I wouldn't think it would be much more than 10-15 cavs.
Those could be taken directly from the Shimazu campaign.

So at some point, in the Shimazu campaign (when it appears that they are gassed) we can start massing our Baejke invasion force. With a strategic rail net, this could be done quickly.

So how about this version:

1. Shimazu war until gassed.
2. Mass Baejke Task Force, and get one-tile island in Peace Treaty.
3. Restart Shimzau war, invade Mori island, invade northern Baejke homeland.

At some point stealing techs actually becomes cheaper than purchasing them. It isn't rocket science, it's just a matter of doing the math. Steal will cost $x. Purchasing will cost $X+1500.

Bugs