MB4 - GOTM24 Redux [ptw]

[TedJackson]

Yep,

only good for taking the edge off heavily fortified superior defenders. If we'd only been facing Infantry then I doubt we'd have needed more than a few.


Ted

 

[mad-bax]

The score graph has been updated.

 

[denyd]

Nice start Shevek, keep going

After the Shimazu are gone, it'll be time for the other continent.

Any ideas on where to start?

Also since I don't think we'll be able to win earlier than either of the other teams playing the easier version, how about if we try to out score them. Push to get as many happy people as possible on the main island. We'll need aquaducts, hospitals... to make that happen.

On a side note, my trip is now off, so I'll be available to play as scheduled.

 

[cracker]

Originally posted by denyd
... Also since I don't think we'll be able to win earlier than either of the other teams playing the easier version...

Denyd, you may have crafted a false sense of comfort here, because if all things were equal in terms of skill and performance, the PTW version that you have been playing would have been viewed as "the easier version" and would have resulted in a game completion date that was 8 to 12 turns earlier than the Civ3v1.29 versions.

An introspective review of the games will show that you have all played admirably to avoid getting smacked by the sleeping UN fiasco, but that the intermediate play at the dawn of the middle ages may have lacked the zest to score well overall when compared directly to other games under the same circumstances.

The rough terrain on Honshu was a particular strategic challenge due to its impact on mobility and defensive bonuses. More integrated use of workers and settlers in the assaults would be some of the only ways to overcome these onstacles and boost the game performance.

Still a great game, and well played by all, just not harder as you have put forth.

 

[denyd]

Cracker,

My comments are based on the my percieved differences. The Vanilla teams price for workers was in 20-30g per while ours was 120-130g, we face defenders with radar towers, while they do not and it seems like they Han opponent we face seems more aggressive in expansion & military than the one they do. Just differences that I've attributed to the PTW/Vanilla game engine changes.

Looking at it again, I think the main difference in the results can actually be attributed to our decision to expand east, while allowing the Takeda to become a major power, instead of taking them on earlier when they could have been handled easier. This decision came very early in the game at a time when we couldn't have known their potential. I will go back to check the mid-game logs and review your comments regarding settler expansion. Thanks for the input.

 

[cracker]

Originally posted by denyd
... we face defenders with radar towers, while they do not and it seems like they Han opponent we face seems more aggressive in expansion & military than the one they do.

The fundamental issue here is that you SHOULD NOT be facing a Han opponent with radar towers regardless of which game version you are playing if the objective from the beginning of the game was stated as a global conquest. If the opponents die before Radar Towers then the impact of that feature is not germaine to the discussion.

Barbarian impact on PTW civs is more significant and tends to ratchet them down a notch in terms or performance and distract them more relative their PTW counterparts.

The randomized tech progression in PTW for scientific civs speeds the game slightly in the off continent trading options while the Civ3v1.29 versions must progress with more human support.

Your assessment of heading east into the more mountainous and narrow terrain as well as a thoughful review of early build placement and priorities may provide the key difference overall. The divergence in success seems to begin in the early middle ages well before any hint of radar or off continent trading would have impacted play.

 

[barbslinger]

Originally posted by cracker

Your assessment of heading east into the more mountainous and narrow terrain as well as a thoughful review of early build placement and priorities may provide the key difference overall. The divergence in success seems to begin in the early middle ages well before any hint of radar or off continent trading would have impacted play.

I agree that our mistake was when we went with Kuroda conquest before Toku/Takada conquest. The fertile Takada lands are giving them great pop counts, i.e., scoring that we didn't get by going after Kuroda/Mori. We were intent on getting the Glibrary however and Takada just looked to damn strong at the time. I think this is a game I may play over to see if conquest can be reached prior to nationalism.

 

[Shevek]

Here comes the remainder of my turns:

...turn 6 continued
Bombardment of Shimazu oil fails but their workers have now abondoned the rubber, bombardment of rubber is successful and hopefully it is ours anyway next turn
lots of railroading is going on, over the past turns I have shipped about 6 transport loads full of workers over to get the railnet going
slip of mouse sends a stack of artillery in the wrong direction, oooops
all is prepared for attack on Kagoshima next turn

IT
loose 1 tank to counter attack
Han have landed on Shimazu mainland near Kunamoto, we will have to hurry with our conquest here, Kunamoto must be ours as it has 5 furs in its radius
Obi riots

7. 1585 AD
Attack on Kagoshima starts badly, of 6 CM 4 fail to do any damage , the other 2 mangage 1 hp each, artillery and bombers manage to take 1 more hp, 2 pop and the airport,
hold back main attack with tanks until next turn as more arti and CM will be in range then,
Synth fib due next turn
Our alliance with Han against Shimazu will run out next turn, we will get back 97gpt, just in time for unit upgrades
Shimazu must have repelled the Han invaders near Kunamoto as they are gone now (or behind the fog)

IT
do not renew Alliance with Han
Han take Miyakonojo (near Kunamoto)
we loose another battleship to Shimazu
Synth Fib comes in, turn research off
Edo and Matsue riot

8. 1590 AD
attack on Kagoshima continues, bombardment is much more successful, we destroy Civil defence,temple and police station and barracks, 3 pop killed, 6 hp taken off, I decide to go for it with tanks, we loose 9 tanks but kill 8 MI and 2 tanks
I keep Kagoshima as it has the pyramids as well as UN
Shimazu is now down to 22 MI
upgrade 12 tanks to MA
we make 430gpt now with science at 0

IT
Korea is building SETI
Han attacks Kunamoto and kills 1 MI

9. 1595 AD
moving troops towards Kunamoto
Han and Korea have Synth Fib too

10. 1600 AD
Going for Kunamoto with all we've got
MA are fun, still loose 3 MA and 2 tanks before taking city killing 7 MI
Leader Kuki is born :jump: , he is 1 tile from Kagoshima for the next player to use
We have now furs and I can lower lux to 20%
found Ise 2
our troops are advancing towards Usuki

I keep 4 MA before Usuki unmoved, also 2 missiles and 2 settlers at Matsue, the next player can decide whether to ferry them to Shimazu island or keep them put

There are 3 Shimazu cities left on the main island. Plus 3 more on some smaller islands. Han might go for some of them.
Shimazu has 14 MI left.
We have 49 MA and 33 tanks. I left some MA on our main land just in case.
Unfortunately we did not beat Han and Korea to Synth Fib. Han has currently 8 MA, 123 Mi and 42 tanks.
Korea has 5 MA, 42 MI, 11 tanks.

I built some airports and we can use 3 airfields around Wineoil (Mori land), 6 airports in and around Ise, 1 airport in Pressure1 and 1 airport in Ivory Plusfor air lifting troops.

I also built about 14 cathedrals in our core cities, concentratig on where happiness was on edge or where we already needed a clown plus some markets and banks.
Cathedrals are really a good investment now that we own Sistine's.
Most cities are building MAs but that might need changing as we are in dire need of a navy.
Our treasury holds 381g and we make 571gpt with science set to 0%. I guess we should get some funds and then continue to research.

 

[Shevek]

I have trouble to get the save uploaded.
Is the server broken??
I will try later tonight again.

The SCORE at 1600 AD is : 3856.

 

[a space oddity]

Shevek! Trying to maximise score while conducting the Shimazu war is good thinking. We'll still need some turns to clear out the Shimazu but we should start thinking about our invasion of the Korean peninsula. When the server is up again, we should take the time to see whether we can come up with a decent strat. The MA will definitely help!

Since we have no science goals anymore we should also sell our libs and unis to help finance the war effort. How's the culture situation? What's our estimate on the Han culture? Should we be afraid of them reaching 100k anytime soon?

 

[TedJackson]

Nice progress Shevek

Finally, a Great Leader (I'd forgotten what one looked like ).

One small point for the next player:
If we're going to try & hold onto Kagoshima (& Kunamoto?) then we probably need to wipe out Shimazu to save wasting troops on garrison duty.


Ted

 

[barbslinger]

I would be all for a ROP rape of Han or Korea. 10 MA positioned on critical cities and blauweee!

 

[Shevek]

It worked now.
Oda Empire

 

[Shevek]

Research:
We might consider to still research Computers to get MI. OK, MA has only 2 less defence points and that might just do the trick. But then we might have to divert our attack force for defence duty. I am a bit divided here.

Shimazu cities:
I do not care that much about Kunamoto, that can be razed. I just did not have a settler handy and wanted to use the territory for movement. I would like to see Kagoshima stay in our hands. It has the pyramids and will give us a pop boost on the island (score).

Culture:
We have now 28,986 culturepoints. On the graph in F8 the Han have just under double that, nowhere near 100k. (Is guessing from F8 the only way to find out?)

War strat:
I think we should clear out Shimazu first. Now that we have MA the progress should speed up consideribly as troops need not necessarily wait for slow missiles and artillery. Soften them up with Bombers and then swoop in. Han seems to be taking care of the small Shimazu islands. But what we capture now we will not need to take away from Han later.

The Han army and navy are impressive. The have 33 battleships against our 9.
So we must keep them sweet until our transporters are in range of their island.

I would like to land near Samchok (east coast) to get our beach head there and sign Korea in to make trouble from the other side. Korea is quite weak, though and we will face a real struggle. But then again, we have faced that for most parts of this game anyway.
The first build should be an airport so that we do not have to rely on sea routes too heavily.
ROP rape, I don't know. Only if we cannot help it, I guess.

We have 7 MA sitting on the Chosogabe Island which can blitz the Han cities there and take 1 lux away from them.

Resources:
Which resource is in short supply for Han and could be attacked by us?
The have at least 3 oil on their mainland and 1 on Chosoland. I see 2 alu on their mainland.
And 1 rubber near Chengdu. But they also hold 1 rubber on Shimazu island underneath Higahiroshima. If we want to go for their resources than rubber would be our best bet (but very tricky to execute). Korea has at least 2 rubber sources in easy range of Han (near Kuson and north of Pyonyang).

Edit: attrocious spelling

 

[a space oddity]

Yes, for culture estimate F8 is in PTW the only way, if you're not allowed to use tools. C3C though has a nice vicotry screen that shows it.

Yes, take out their Rubber seems right, although we should try to disconnect the other resources too. I'm not saying that I'm for it, but if we do go RoP raping that would be a good way to disconnect a lot of them in one go.

Let's see if we can compare 2 strats (honourable and not), I'll look at the save later.

 

[denyd]

This is my GOT IT

I'll spend a couple of hours tonight reviewing the situation and post a plan for my turn set tomorrow. Any thoughts, suggestions or hints will be greatly appreciated. Most games I've played are over by now or like GOTY, I'm attacking riflemen with modern armor.

 

[denyd]

Barbslinger has agreed to help me out and swap places this round so that I can finish the GOTY.

Thanks Barbslinger

 

[barbslinger]

I need a consensus on the ROP rape plan. If your for it I would also like the preferred target. I think at this point, with SynFib in hand, our rep does not matter. We are not going for a space win so I wold also like a consensus on selling ALL libs and uni's. Devoting all cash to war effort and finishing off both of them. I would like to dual ROP rape. Take Korea or Han with a ROP/alliance with the other and then rape them too. Hopefully we can finish this off soon or milk for score to win.

 

[Shevek]

Denyd, good luck with GOTY. It's a great game and I have still to finish it, too. (Only for me it's still at the 'cavs against rifles' stage

ROP-rape is allowed by GOTM rules, right? So we do not really cheat using it, right? So we do not behave badly with view to the other teams, right?
If all of the above can be answered with a resounding yes, then let's go for it. After all the AI (Takeda) did it to us before as well.
This strategy would allow for a faster finish and definitely be safer than going the honorable way.

I am quite OK with selling libs/unis to speed up the war effort.
But I would opt to go for Han first preferably with an Korean alliance against them and pick off Korea afterwards.

If ROP rape is what we are going for, then cutting off resources should be our primary aim to start the offensive off.

But it is still advisable to finish off Shamzu before all else.

 

[mad-bax]

There is nothing wrong with an ROP rape in GOTM games. Many of the elite players use it. I believe that both of the other teams i this SG have used ROP rapes in their games already.