Medieval European Mod II 2016-10-05

[Yoda Power]

On the point of assassins, question for Yoda and embryodead, what was the reasoning behind letting only the Muslim civs have assassins in the first place? If there was no real reasoning that you are wedded to, then it would be easy to fix the problem as Kumquat suggested. However, if you want to stay true to some original intent, then maybe we need to know what the intent was before offering advice on how to change it. I think assassins are fine, it's just a bit annoying when the AI starts mass producing them.

Well the Assasins were a muslim sect, it would make no sense to give them to the Christian civs. Besides they are considered one of the Muslim advantedges. Christians can get the Hospitaller, Templars and Crusaders, while the Muslims gets Ghazis, Assasins and Slavers.

Technically they should only be available to the Fatimids, but then we would have to think of something new for the Muslims.

I think maybe giving Crusaders the ability to spot Assasins is the right way to go, but I haven't talked to ED about it yet.

 

[Svetovid]

Ah, you were referring to the hashashin sect (sp? something like that)... I never connected it with that, maybe I should have read your civipedia.

In light of that, I think it makes sense to keep assassins for the Muslims... I would go with what somebody else said about making them really really expensive, maybe like the production of "armies" and also maybe dependent on a small wonder that can be research some time in the second age (some sort of hashashin shrine or what not, I'm sure there was something like that... the "assassins' den" sounds nice and spooky). That way, you confine their production in a single city and every 10-15 turns. You could also maybe then make their attack 3, instead of 2. This will make them fun to play with when controling Muslim civs and not as annoying to face when AI controls them.

The thing is, it makes perfect sense to have assassins the way you envisioned it, but not if I have to defend my cities against attacks of 15 invisible dudes!

At least those islands are safe... unless you are going to make them "marine" units...

 

[rifleman]

I second Svetovid's suggestion for increasing the cost of building Assassins, and the idea of an 'Assassin Stronghold' SW.

Although, I'm not totally on board with saying that the Assassins, as a Muslim sect, should only be for Muslims. While Muslim, they were seen as heretical and as much a threat (if not more) to Muslim govs as they were to Crusaders. They were even employed, from time to time, by Crusaders.

Historically speaking, it would make sense to have an more expensive SW open to Western civs that would allow them to produce more expensive assassins. But I totally understand why this could upset the mod's balance.

If this SW does get off the ground, I would suggest making it something that could 'meltdown', so that using assassins in the game is as risky as using them actually was.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Hey Conformist, Rhodes definitely yes, Malta DEFINITELY no (been to both, so I can vouch for that).

The island is 246km^2. How much room do you think they needed?

Regardless, the point is not just about there being enough room, the point is also that they are islands, that you need to ship the troops and the siege engines AND (most importantly) that you are stuck on this island without an easy way to get either your reinforcements or supplies. Thus, your window of time that you have to perform your invasion is cut. Therefore the fact that they are represented as one tile in this mod by the authors may help to simulate all these logistical difficulties.

Actually, it's two tiles on the large map. As for supplies, the prefered mode of transportion at the time was by ship ...

So no, it wasn't just that the Ottomans "failed to carry out a successful siege". Lets not forget that it took them 2 GIGANTIC invasions before they finally got Rhodes, with HUGE losses in the tens of thousands, AND that there was an invasion of Malta that failed before the big one in 1565, which also failed. Wow, all of a sudden the Ottomas seem awfully incompetent, especially for a nation that almost conquered entire European continent... hmm...

May I remind you that they also twice failed to capture Vienna?

 

[embryodead]

Well, the meltdown is reserved for plagues atm. Raising the cost won't be too good for the AI, but an autopro SW is a good option (was thinking of Nizari Stronghold).

 

[Svetovid]

Conformist, touche on the Siege of Vienna... That is a very good point. However, ignoring the fact that Malta held out against 50,000 Turks with 800 knights is difficult (Vienna garrison had substantially more defenders), or that Rhodes was barely captured by an invading force of over 100,000 Turks against a similar sized force of knights. Furthermore, there is very little space on Malta to prepare a siege... and the terrain is not all giant plain squares like in Civ... Good luck leading troops through that. And yes, you are correct that it is two tiles on the map I played, but if you build a nice fort on the other tile you prevent non-marine units from deploying. The AI figures this out as well, which adds to the fun (but some people just get annoyed by AI civs surviving... so cruel you people... so cruel)!

As for ships being the preferred method of transportation during the time, that statement is quite sweeping and incredibly relative/vague/not-backed-up, so I don't know how to reply to it. Perhaps, perhaps not. The Mediterranean routes were seriously hurt by the Muslim invasions, so in fact the exact opposite argument could very well be made. What is for sure is that launching an invasion of a small island guarded by a well defended fortress half way across the Mediterranean leaves you with few options for supply lines, none of which are great. This Scenario retraces these difficulties quite accurately.

BUT, historical issues aside, I think both embryodead and Yoda made strong points for why marine units should be upgraded from crusaders. There is the issue of random map play as well as the fact that these units would only be available later on in the game near the end (thus letting these poor AI civs survive at least a bit longer...) I am simply saying that island fortresses were difficult to take down in the Middle Ages (they were, no discussion open on the question really and I can't believe this is a contentious point... isn't "island fortress" an idiomatic expression in English for a well defended locale?!?!?!) and that it was cool to see the same thing happen in the mod while I was playing against civs that ran to little islands to stay alive.

Turning to the issue of assassins, SW sounds like a great idea... Rifleman makes a good point about assassins not being solely a Muslim phenomenon, but the sect that embryodead and Yoda are talking about was a Muslim sect and it adds flavor to the whole thing... and it is all about FLAVOR damnit!

 

[rifleman]

On the issue of Rhodes and Malta - I agree that Rhodes is good with an extra square, since it really was more like any other siege, it just happened to be on an island. Malta on the other hand, while being a fairly big rock, was etremely remote in comparison and its location was not exactly in friendly waters. As a result, while the Turks did their typically outstanding job blocking off the fortress from the rest of the island, the defences were too good. In desperation, the Turks resorted to trying a foolhardy Marine landing that effectively destroyed their invasion force - so one square works.

As for ships being the preferred method of transport at that time, I'm not sure what to make of that either. Even the Crusades went through Byzantium, and except with powers that had undisputed naval superiority, most armies marched to their destination.

Also, I was talking about THE Assassins (Hashishin), not just an assassin. They were originally formed to confront what they saw as corrupt/unworthy leaders within Islam.

In the end, I think that Yoda and Embryodead know best. They've done a great job so far, and any changes they make will be good ones I'm sure.

 

[Yoda Power]

I second Svetovid's suggestion for increasing the cost of building Assassins, and the idea of an 'Assassin Stronghold' SW.

Although, I'm not totally on board with saying that the Assassins, as a Muslim sect, should only be for Muslims. While Muslim, they were seen as heretical and as much a threat (if not more) to Muslim govs as they were to Crusaders. They were even employed, from time to time, by Crusaders.

Historically speaking, it would make sense to have an more expensive SW open to Western civs that would allow them to produce more expensive assassins. But I totally understand why this could upset the mod's balance.

If this SW does get off the ground, I would suggest making it something that could 'meltdown', so that using assassins in the game is as risky as using them actually was.

I'm against this idea. The crusader states might have been allied with the assasins in some rare cases, but you never saw any of the civs in this mod having anything to do with the sect. I don't want to see Irish or Hungarian assasins running around in Europe.

 

[St Exupère]

As for ships being the preferred method of transport at that time, I'm not sure what to make of that either. Even the Crusades went through Byzantium, and except with powers that had undisputed naval superiority, most armies marched to their destination.

I disagree. While it is true for what Historians call the "1st crusade" - which from a christian point of view, was a disaster (exacerbated Latin/Greek divide and ended up in a massacre of unarmed christian pilgrims by the Sledjuk tribes in Anatolia) - it is much less so in later pilgrimages/crusades. The (in)famous 4th crusade for instance involved only naval-transported knights and foot soldiers. Even in the late XIVth / early XVth, when Western Christian kingdoms of Europe (and I stress on Western) were still attempting sporadically to fight-off the Ottomans, and then desperately trying to save Constantinople, most of the (weak) attacks were led by sea; the disater of the battle of Nicopolis in 1396 was rather an exception to the rule. Obviously this is not true from a Hungarian perspective, and inapplicable from a Greek/Byzantine perspective.

Assassins: in all games I have played they were a bigger threat to the muslim themselves than to Christian civs, since their hordes are mainly roaming moslem territory and it is common to see Fatimids and Abbasids at peace but figthing off each other's assassins. Plus historically it is undeniable that the name, sect and practice at such an organized level have an islamic origin. However, increasing the cost of the unit + the SW idea, both sound good.

Island fortresses: one thing civ3 does not unable is the simulation of logistics tied with soldiers/armies involved in foreign territories. Since it has always been a key factor in military victories it means that civ3 is not a wargame. In the case of Malta the Ottomans had enough room to land and lay a normal siege; however their line of logistics was inexistant which forced them to a quick/massive assault or constant and risky naval re-enforcements and evacuations. I would leave geography as it is in MEMII, and the idea od having late Renaissance amphibious units also sounds good because very late in the game. Since then, small 1 or 2 squares island/fortresses surviving vs powerful empires sounds historically accurate to me, not matter how annoying to a dominant human player that might be.

 

[Alan McG]

Gotcha!

Spoiler :

First game finished (at last!)... General impression great, but definitively would do sth about the assassins. I kept having hordes roaming around all Russia all the time (and until I was able to build inquisitors, they were pretty much everywhere).

 

[Stormrage]

Them Russkies got themselves some ninjer skillz eh? Impressive domination!

I want those macaroni borders, where did you get them?

 

[Alan McG]

Thanks It was a long long game, but very cool

I got the macaroni borders here long time ago, I just run a search but didn't find them..So I uploaded mine here http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96695/Territory.pcx

enjoy!

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

From my historical knowledge the most famous assassin stronghold was at alamut. It was an impregnable fortress in northern Iran however they gave up without a fight to the oncoming hordes of Hulagu but were all still slaughtered.

 

[Stormrage]

They were probably high on something, giving up like that

Thanks Alan!

 

[Yoda Power]

Gotcha!

Spoiler :

First game finished (at last!)... General impression great, but definitively would do sth about the assassins. I kept having hordes roaming around all Russia all the time (and until I was able to build inquisitors, they were pretty much everywhere).

That's very impressive. I've never even got close to win domination on that map.

edit:

From my historical knowledge the most famous assassin stronghold was at alamut. It was an impregnable fortress in northern Iran however they gave up without a fight to the oncoming hordes of Hulagu but were all still slaughtered.

The assasins had two great strongholds, Alamut in Iran and Masyaf in Syria. I'm not sure if one was them were considered more important than the other though.

 

[Svetovid]

Alan McG, when you say there were hordes of assassins running around Russia, you are referring to Abbassid assassins that made it all the way up there, right?

On the point about gameplay, St Exupère is right that the assassins are a big threat to the Muslims, since they are contigous and fight against one another even when at peace. However, I can also vouch for the fact that they detract from AI's strategy considerably. I own Malta at the moment and therefore have a front seat to the Moorish (AI) attempts to conquer Sicily (AI). The idiot (Moorish nation) keeps trying to invade using assassins (assassins become temporarily visible as they disembark), it is almost now exclusively what he builds and despite being a much more powerful civ at the moment (12 cities vs. 2 of Malta) he can't conquer the island. Instead of sending some of those powerful Druze Ghazi, he keeps sending assassins. Wow.

I definitely think a SW production is necessary here. Cost increase should also be contemplated. Assassin production needs to be confined to one city (the one with SW, like "armies"). That would also be historically accurate as well, taking into consideration the ohcrapitsnico and Yoda's discussion about strongholds.

Also, very impressive win Alan McG! I have been intending to post mine for some time, but with all the work, I have no time to finally conquer all of Europe for the Byzentine Empire... soon.

 

[Alan McG]

Alan McG, when you say there were hordes of assassins running around Russia, you are referring to Abbassid assassins that made it all the way up there, right?

No, actually right now I had the Abbassids more or less under control. It's the Tatars I had the main problem with (purple on the map), they had plenty of cities on the east in current Russia and a long borderline to get through.

 

[Virote_Considon]

I was playing as France last night (random civ). The HRE managed to get a city from a goody hut to my northern border on turn 1, and a few turns in (when I'd founded Orleans), they decided to march their units through my territory. Not being one to accept this sort of thing, I gave them an ultimatum to get out, which they rejected, so I attacked their northern city (a Frank was conveniently positioned there at the time...), then they attacked Paris, killing its only defender . Not being one to give up in the thick of it, I pressed on, and my lone Frank came running to Paris' aid, and a couple of turns later, she was mine again. I then sued Germany for peace, in which I gained all of their gold (not much), 4gpt, and all of their cities* cities. I then proceeded in becoming #1 in the civs technologically

*They had no cities left apart from their capital, anyway...

 

[Svetovid]

I have been playing this Byzantine game for what now seems to be weeks... I want to write a run down of all the things that have happened, but let me just say for now that there are about 85 turns left until turns run out and the damn Khazar's are close to winning on "cultural domination"!! I think I have about 20 turns maximum to completely annihilate them, or else all is for naught!

Their cities can build both Muslim and Jewish religious buildings and it would appear that all of their cities are maxed out with cultural improvements. Did you guys program them like this on purpose? If you did, mad props to you because they are making the end of my game incredibly exciting... I may have to withdraw from Italy (and let the Polish take it) in order to go all-in against these sneaky Khazars...

Now you are probably wondering why I wasn't paying attention to the cultural win score... I was, I just didn't believe that they would double up on their score so fast! I was too busy killing those annoying Muslim assassins!!!

This scenario is absolutely SICK!

By the way, Alan McG, I see you won that game in 1367... That's CRAZY man... I'm probably going to play until the very end the way things are right now... or at least I hope so...

 

[Yoda Power]

I was playing as France last night (random civ). The HRE managed to get a city from a goody hut to my northern border on turn 1, and a few turns in (when I'd founded Orleans), they decided to march their units through my territory. Not being one to accept this sort of thing, I gave them an ultimatum to get out, which they rejected, so I attacked their northern city (a Frank was conveniently positioned there at the time...), then they attacked Paris, killing its only defender . Not being one to give up in the thick of it, I pressed on, and my lone Frank came running to Paris' aid, and a couple of turns later, she was mine again. I then sued Germany for peace, in which I gained all of their gold (not much), 4gpt, and all of their cities* cities. I then proceeded in becoming #1 in the civs technologically

*They had no cities left apart from their capital, anyway...

So your capital is Orleans now, or did you change it back to Paris? I would love to see a sceenshot from that game.

I have been playing this Byzantine game for what now seems to be weeks... I want to write a run down of all the things that have happened, but let me just say for now that there are about 85 turns left until turns run out and the damn Khazar's are close to winning on "cultural domination"!! I think I have about 20 turns maximum to completely annihilate them, or else all is for naught!

Their cities can build both Muslim and Jewish religious buildings and it would appear that all of their cities are maxed out with cultural improvements. Did you guys program them like this on purpose? If you did, mad props to you because they are making the end of my game incredibly exciting... I may have to withdraw from Italy (and let the Polish take it) in order to go all-in against these sneaky Khazars...

Now you are probably wondering why I wasn't paying attention to the cultural win score... I was, I just didn't believe that they would double up on their score so fast! I was too busy killing those annoying Muslim assassins!!!

This scenario is absolutely SICK!

By the way, Alan McG, I see you won that game in 1367... That's CRAZY man... I'm probably going to play until the very end the way things are right now... or at least I hope so...

The Khazars have the Radhanite Guild in one of their cities, it gives them a cultural bonus in all cities, so find out where it is, and then go after it, that's my best suggestion.