Men not handshaking women on religious grounds

[Loppan Torkel]

Is it discrimination?

If a man refuses to handshake a female about to employ him and therefor is denied the job - Should the state interfere for either party to ensure either one isn't discriminated?

 

[Quackers]

If I were the female in question I would discriminate against him because he wouldn't shake my hand which in my book is a lack of character. Screw this religious practice imo...

State shouldn't get involved in this.

 

[emzie]

Having the state enforce discriminatory withholding of a handshake would be quite silly. It is, of course, discrimination and the one time I met a man like this, I politely asked him get the eff off my porch

 

[Yoda Power]

Why only men? There are women who don't want to shake hands with men too.

 

[Loppan Torkel]

It doesn't really matter if it's a man or a woman.
A pretty similar situation to what I wrote -

Spoiler :

(AP) Sweden's unemployment agency has been found guilty of discrimination for expelling a Muslim man from a job training program because he refused to shake hands with a woman.

A Stockholm court Monday ordered the Public Employment Service to pay 50,000 kronor (approximately $6,800) in damages to an immigrant from Bosnia who lost his jobless benefits when he was kicked out of the program.

Citing his faith, the man had refused to shake hands with a woman when he was interviewing for an internship.

The agency said his behavior was part of the reason he didn't get the position, and decided to exclude him from the program.

The court ruled that the man was discriminated against because of his religion. It wasn't immediately clear whether the ruling would be appealed.

cbsnews

 

[holy king]

you cant be a dick and then hide behind religion.

much less in a supposedly secular state.

 

[Karalysia]

you cant be a dick and then hide behind religion.

much less in a supposedly secular state.

Yeah. Religion isn't a justification for sexual and religious discrimination.

 

[illram]

My answer assumes said employer is stupid enough to cite the handshake as the reason for firing the guy:

I'd say it depends on the job. If the guy is an at-will factory hand (haha) then the business should be able to make the simple accommodation of not shaking his hand, even if it is highly offensive. The guy doesn't need to shake hands to do his job. That is, if they would like to avoid a wrongful termination lawsuit, which this person could arguably bring in California under FEHA, believe it or not.

Equal employment laws in the US generally will generally force most employers to make reasonable accommodations of religious beliefs that do not create an undue hardship on both parties. I think this is sound public policy. And US state and federal employment laws will provide avenues for employees to sue a business, even if the employee was at-will, if he can show he was fired because of his religion, and that this religious practice could have been reasonably accommodated, but was not.

If the guy was in a position where face to face human interaction was an important part of his job, like sales, a religious accommodation would be hard to do and could be an undue hardship on the business to accommodate. Under those circumstances firing the guy is probably OK.

Obviously this sounds pretty silly, but most businesses are so paranoid about this stuff that I'd be surprised if a semi-knowledgeable boss would take the risk and can this guy outright (assuming they made the mistake of hiring him in the first place) no matter what business he was in. Practically speaking they'd be silly to cite the handshake as the reason, since it would probably not be difficult to find some other reason to fire the guy.

As to the question should the state get involved... well the state should get involved in questions of religious discrimination in the form of laws prohibiting it within reason. Like I said I think that is good public policy. This, obviously, is stretching religious accommodation within reason. I personally would not shed a tear if such a person was fired for refusing to shake a woman's hand and wound up losing his case.

 

[MeteorPunch]

If you can't shake hands with the opposite sex, your religion is probably dumb.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

In the only religions I know of that would ban hand shaking between the sexes, I believe the rule technically only applies while the woman in menstruating. I don't suppose it would really smooth things along much though if the man were to ask about her cycle before deciding to shake her hand or not.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I can't speak to the applicable laws, but it seems to me that if you want to live your religion you need to be ready to accept the consequences that society imposes, whether it is right or wrong of them. By all means, don't shake hands, but if that negatively affects your employment chances you have to live with it.

And yes, there are cases where unwillingness to shake hands affects your ability to do your job, and employers should be allowed to deal with this accordingly.

 

[Flying Pig]

you cant be a dick and then hide behind religion.

much less in a supposedly secular state.

Aye. I think politicians would get a lot more public support if they took a stand on this rather than trying to please everyone - maybe I should run for PM?

 

[dirtyparrot]

The Employer would never tell you that's the reason that particular person wasn't hired, so it would never really be an issue.

 

[warpus]

Is it discrimination?

If a man refuses to handshake a female about to employ him and therefor is denied the job - Should the state interfere for either party to ensure either one isn't discriminated?

What? No.

If you're rude enough not to shake your's interviewee's hand then you have nothing to complain about if you don't get the job!

How does religion figure into this?

 

[Winner]

you cant be a dick and then hide behind religion.

much less in a supposedly secular state.

This.

 

[cardgame]

Until this practice is ceased, I will continue to invent religions for myself with rules like this

 

[GinandTonic]

Just to get the scenario clear in my mind...

If you seem to pass a job interview and then refuse to shake the interviewers hand to seal the deal, can you complain the deal is not sealed?

Clearly not. It is you who refused to make the verbal contract, and you are therefore in no position to complain as to the lack of a contract.

 

[G-Man]

Is it discrimination?

If a man refuses to handshake a female about to employ him and therefor is denied the job - Should the state interfere for either party to ensure either one isn't discriminated?

It's a very mild form of discrimination. However, I think that shouldn't be enforced by the state because doing so would be against two major values in a way that is stronger than the values damaged by not enforcing it. The two values are the freedom of religion and autonomy of one's body.

I'm not religious, but I don't want to live in a place where the state forces me to touch others against my will, for any reason except the most extreme (things like pulling a drowning person out of the water).

That being said, the person who refuses to shake hands shouldn't be offered any special protection from the state - if you can't shake hands for religious reasons we won't force you to, but you'll have to deal with the consequences it might have yourself.

 

[Mise]

It doesn't really matter if it's a man or a woman.
A pretty similar situation to what I wrote -

Spoiler :

(AP) Sweden's unemployment agency has been found guilty of discrimination for expelling a Muslim man from a job training program because he refused to shake hands with a woman.

A Stockholm court Monday ordered the Public Employment Service to pay 50,000 kronor (approximately $6,800) in damages to an immigrant from Bosnia who lost his jobless benefits when he was kicked out of the program.

Citing his faith, the man had refused to shake hands with a woman when he was interviewing for an internship.

The agency said his behavior was part of the reason he didn't get the position, and decided to exclude him from the program.

The court ruled that the man was discriminated against because of his religion. It wasn't immediately clear whether the ruling would be appealed.

cbsnews

That just sounds ridiculous... I have a feeling this is not the whole story.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Wow. $6700. Now he can retire in comfort; or perhaps at least not starve to death until he can find another job...

And yes, it does appear that the agency specifically mentioned that was part of the reason he didn't get the internship for a job as a welder.

In 2006, the 24 year old Alen Malik Crnalic applied for a trainee-place as welder at a company in Älmhult, south Sweden. But during the work interview, he refused to shake hands with the female CEO. As an active Muslim, Malik Crnalik is not allowed to touch women outside his family. Instead he greeted through placing his right hand on his chest and bowed.

And listen to the CEO try to spin it after the fact!

According to the CEO of the company, the decision to not give the man a trainee-job was not based on his way of greeting.

- He simply did not have the qualities that we demanded, she says to Swedish Television SVT.

But the CEO felt however insulted by the way she was treated by the man.

- I felt humiliated. He shook hands with everybody except for me, she says to SVT.

I can certainly see why she was so offended. Who in the world bows these days?