Mic4 - AWM
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Justus II
General Staff
Wheel is a decent cheap tech, and usually tradeable, so probably not a bad idea. {Maybe I should read some more AW threads as well.... } 
Nick014
Deposed Despot
Please do put me in the 6th spot 
I would also vote for the wheel, because in addition to being a tradeable, it will also show us where the horses are.
I would also vote for the wheel, because in addition to being a tradeable, it will also show us where the horses are.
Some short AW points:
1) For government, you want Monarchy. Switching to Communism can be beneficial later on.
2) If you are not used to Monarchy, remember that you have MP. Whenever you move units out of a city it may riot! I still sometimes have trouble with remembering this. Also remember you can fix unhappiness with units.
3) Place towns at distance 3 apart. This is so one town can help defend another in a single turn. You can even switch MP's across the whole civ allowing you to subtract one unit in one city and add it in another one without affecting the ones inbetween.
4) Keep research high most of the time. Money is not as useful and you have to research everything yourself. Do not do 50 turn Min or you will be behind.
5) The GLib is a very powerful wonder in AW since you can't do "2-fers" and have to self research everything. It allows for building up a cash reserve for upgrading units or to save for when you restart research.
6) (Opinion) With fewer opponents, it is better to attack; with more it is better to defend.
a) If you can damage or kill one civ before the next one starts sending large numbers of units, it is a big advantage.
b) However, if 3 or more are sending noticable numbers of units, it is better to hunker down and defend. Try to get very favorable kill ratios.
7) To get good kill ratios...
a) Avoid attacks that leave a unit that can be attacked next turn. Horses are very important because they can attack and retreat. Otherwise it is often better to leave the last unit alive.
b) Build artillery type units. You want to attack units with 1 or 2 hp instead of 3 or4. Catapults are much more important units than normal games.
c) Armies can be used to attack to avoid losing units.
d) Have defenders to cover attackers; defend in mountains; Remember that walls can be very useful in towns. (sometimes the best odds are from defending).
8) Techs you want to get:
a) Bronzeworking - Get this early to defend yourself.
b) Warrior Code - This is needed too or you can't deal with defensive enemy units pillaging your lands.
c) Ironworking and Wheel - These are useful for finding resources. A swords attack of 3 handles spears much better than archers. Horses can attack and retreat.
d) Masonry - Walls are very useful for a defensive game. (With the Greeks defense 3 UU, walls are especially useful. Your best odds will be defending behind walls. In a town on a hill with walls, a fortified Phalanx will defend more often even against cavalry).
e) Mathematics - Catapults allow you to attack injured units instead of healthy ones.
f) Literature - for the GLib
g) Monarchy - Obvious
h) Currency - You have lots of units so markets are very important.
i) Construction - Get cities to size 7 increases unit support.
i) Map Making - Sending suicide galleys across the seas to meet civs that can't get to you, but can lower your research costs is very nice.
j) Code of Laws - for courthouses.
9) Unit support is pretty important. It is even possible to have too many units and find you can't research well. Having more cities (the distance 3 provides this), and getting them to size 7 helps this.
10) Armies
a) In general, avoid building defense 1 armies. They will be attacked by swords, knights, longbows, etc. If you do build one, make sure it is defended.
b) Pillaging the enemy is very powerful. Knights and Cavalry with their faster speed can really hurt your kill ratio. Pillage the horses, iron and saltpeter, and the AI will build easy to kill longbows. In C3C pillaging does not cost a move, you can pillage quickly. Even early spear/phallanx armies whose only purpose is to pillage is worthwhile (worth more than a archer IMO).
c) Armies heal in enemy territory (do not need Battlefield Medicine). This is very useful in that you can attack a city, heal, attack, heal. No need to leave.
d) Armies that lose too many HP will be attacked by every avail unit. If an army is redlined, then defend it or run away. Under 8 hp is bad. However, a cavalry and crusader will attack a defense 2 army with more hp than that.
e) Two armies together can defend each other and are very strong. If you only attack when both armies have 8 or more hp, then if one is red-lined, the other has 8+ hp can defend it. Only if you lose 8+ hp in one battle is your army killed.
11) In C3C, the AI will land more than 1 unit from a boat near undefended cities. Keep all back line coastal cities defended. I would keep 1 or 2 defenders in each, and have a offensive unit for every few cities as well.
12) I think continents is the best for an initial game. Pangea has too many enemies and is harder, and archipelligo just doesn't seem suited to AW.
13) Something that I disovered fairly recently is that if a civ completely owns an island, they will tend to attack pillaging units including armies that used to be safe. (They also build more boats and bombers if it is late in the game - build air defense if this happens).
14) The AI will give top priority to bombarding armies (both with boats and planes - they don't use artillery well).
15) Rails are awesome in AW. Once your defenders can reach any place in your lands, the number of defenders that you need is much less. This can free up lots of units to use for attack and defense in the enemy territory. I find the invasion of well defended enemy continent occurs shortly after getting rails in my AW game (defenders especially are freed up allowing one to hold cities).
I am sure there are things about AW that I am forgetting. But these are what I can think of at the moment. Hope it is useful.
1) For government, you want Monarchy. Switching to Communism can be beneficial later on.
2) If you are not used to Monarchy, remember that you have MP. Whenever you move units out of a city it may riot! I still sometimes have trouble with remembering this. Also remember you can fix unhappiness with units.
3) Place towns at distance 3 apart. This is so one town can help defend another in a single turn. You can even switch MP's across the whole civ allowing you to subtract one unit in one city and add it in another one without affecting the ones inbetween.
4) Keep research high most of the time. Money is not as useful and you have to research everything yourself. Do not do 50 turn Min or you will be behind.
5) The GLib is a very powerful wonder in AW since you can't do "2-fers" and have to self research everything. It allows for building up a cash reserve for upgrading units or to save for when you restart research.
6) (Opinion) With fewer opponents, it is better to attack; with more it is better to defend.
a) If you can damage or kill one civ before the next one starts sending large numbers of units, it is a big advantage.
b) However, if 3 or more are sending noticable numbers of units, it is better to hunker down and defend. Try to get very favorable kill ratios.
7) To get good kill ratios...
a) Avoid attacks that leave a unit that can be attacked next turn. Horses are very important because they can attack and retreat. Otherwise it is often better to leave the last unit alive.
b) Build artillery type units. You want to attack units with 1 or 2 hp instead of 3 or4. Catapults are much more important units than normal games.
c) Armies can be used to attack to avoid losing units.
d) Have defenders to cover attackers; defend in mountains; Remember that walls can be very useful in towns. (sometimes the best odds are from defending).
8) Techs you want to get:
a) Bronzeworking - Get this early to defend yourself.
b) Warrior Code - This is needed too or you can't deal with defensive enemy units pillaging your lands.
c) Ironworking and Wheel - These are useful for finding resources. A swords attack of 3 handles spears much better than archers. Horses can attack and retreat.
d) Masonry - Walls are very useful for a defensive game. (With the Greeks defense 3 UU, walls are especially useful. Your best odds will be defending behind walls. In a town on a hill with walls, a fortified Phalanx will defend more often even against cavalry).
e) Mathematics - Catapults allow you to attack injured units instead of healthy ones.
f) Literature - for the GLib
g) Monarchy - Obvious
h) Currency - You have lots of units so markets are very important.
i) Construction - Get cities to size 7 increases unit support.
i) Map Making - Sending suicide galleys across the seas to meet civs that can't get to you, but can lower your research costs is very nice.
j) Code of Laws - for courthouses.
9) Unit support is pretty important. It is even possible to have too many units and find you can't research well. Having more cities (the distance 3 provides this), and getting them to size 7 helps this.
10) Armies
a) In general, avoid building defense 1 armies. They will be attacked by swords, knights, longbows, etc. If you do build one, make sure it is defended.
b) Pillaging the enemy is very powerful. Knights and Cavalry with their faster speed can really hurt your kill ratio. Pillage the horses, iron and saltpeter, and the AI will build easy to kill longbows. In C3C pillaging does not cost a move, you can pillage quickly. Even early spear/phallanx armies whose only purpose is to pillage is worthwhile (worth more than a archer IMO).
c) Armies heal in enemy territory (do not need Battlefield Medicine). This is very useful in that you can attack a city, heal, attack, heal. No need to leave.
d) Armies that lose too many HP will be attacked by every avail unit. If an army is redlined, then defend it or run away. Under 8 hp is bad. However, a cavalry and crusader will attack a defense 2 army with more hp than that.
e) Two armies together can defend each other and are very strong. If you only attack when both armies have 8 or more hp, then if one is red-lined, the other has 8+ hp can defend it. Only if you lose 8+ hp in one battle is your army killed.
11) In C3C, the AI will land more than 1 unit from a boat near undefended cities. Keep all back line coastal cities defended. I would keep 1 or 2 defenders in each, and have a offensive unit for every few cities as well.
12) I think continents is the best for an initial game. Pangea has too many enemies and is harder, and archipelligo just doesn't seem suited to AW.
13) Something that I disovered fairly recently is that if a civ completely owns an island, they will tend to attack pillaging units including armies that used to be safe. (They also build more boats and bombers if it is late in the game - build air defense if this happens).
14) The AI will give top priority to bombarding armies (both with boats and planes - they don't use artillery well).
15) Rails are awesome in AW. Once your defenders can reach any place in your lands, the number of defenders that you need is much less. This can free up lots of units to use for attack and defense in the enemy territory. I find the invasion of well defended enemy continent occurs shortly after getting rails in my AW game (defenders especially are freed up allowing one to hold cities).
I am sure there are things about AW that I am forgetting. But these are what I can think of at the moment. Hope it is useful.
Justus II
General Staff
Greebly-thanks for the Executive Summary! I've printed that post. I was going to mention some thoughts about techs, but I think you hit many of them. I'm thinking we might want to choose one of the basic techs we need (Warrior or Wheel) initially and use F10 to check out our rivals, to get a feel for what we'll be likely to get in initial contacts. At Monarch, the AI researches slowly enough, and puts a low priority on Lit anyway, that I think we can afford to get some of the basic techs out of the way before making our Writing-Lit run.
I also agree with (and have seen) the wisdom of the closer city spacing, both for shifting defenders and unit support.
Finally, I'm going to apologize now, as I'm quite sure I'll be guilty of the "<City> riots becuase I moved the MP out"
I'm not used to MP-type govs, and when I play the various Conquests that use them, I make that mistake often enough!
I was going to mention some thoughts about techs, but I think you hit many of them. I'm thinking we might want to choose one of the basic techs we need (Warrior or Wheel) initially and use F10 to check out our rivals, to get a feel for what we'll be likely to get in initial contacts. At Monarch, the AI researches slowly enough, and puts a low priority on Lit anyway, that I think we can afford to get some of the basic techs out of the way before making our Writing-Lit run. I also agree with (and have seen) the wisdom of the closer city spacing, both for shifting defenders and unit support.
Finally, I'm going to apologize now, as I'm quite sure I'll be guilty of the "<City> riots becuase I moved the MP out"
I'm not used to MP-type govs, and when I play the various Conquests that use them, I make that mistake often enough! 
microbe
Cascaded Mansion
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Justus II said:Finally, I'm going to apologize now, as I'm quite sure I'll be guilty of the "<City> riots becuase I moved the MP out"
Especially if you are used to mapstat and such utilities to report rioting.
Thanks Greebley for the comprehensive tips.
I'm still reading, but I'll definitely start it tonight. I'll play 25 turns to make sure we don't run into anyone too fast, and gozpel play 15 turns, then 10 turns afterwards.
6thGenTexan
King
Another thing to remember early in city placment is crossing rivers. Trying to relocate defenders is harder when they stop at a river between towns. This tends to kill the reinforcement defender and lose the city in my games.
microbe
Cascaded Mansion
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Found Athens on the spot and it reveals a hut in range. Worker goes to irrigate the wheat.
Good thing is that we are at the corner.
Start max research on Warrior Code.
I start on rax.
3550BC: Capital expands and we get a settler from hut! Oh the game will be easier than expected. But hey, this is just a "get hands dirty" game. It was not meant to be too hard.
Settler moves to our backyard to settle.
3300BC: I found Sparta which pops a hut and gives map. We have 2 furs in the tundra.
3000BC: Warrior Code -> Wheel.
2900BC: We pop up barbs in the north.
2670BC: We found Thermopylae to claim the wines.
I don't know exactly what to build so I build raxes. We badly need more workers. Maybe we can pop one from Athens or Sparta.
Tentative dotmap follows.
We need some discussion about build order and city placement/priority. Research also - what should be the next tech? I think if we have horses then HBR, otherwise Iron Working?
With some archers online I think we can start to make some contact to make research faster. Maybe we can build a curragh for that job?
I played 30 turns, so gozpel could choose to play 10 or 15 turns.
gozpel - up
grs - on deck
6thGenTexan
King
Is that a settler SW of Thermopylae? If so, where is he heading?
I'd settle the western dot next. That will give us some time to road/build barrack or wall before the angrey hoards arrive to attack Athens from the mountains.
Move the eastern dot NW one squeare. It should still be on the coast and 3 from Athens and Termopylae.
Sparta is well protected. With the hills, 2BG and a forest, this could be our Library location. A worker next will be close to the growth.
I vote for another settler out of Athens.
I like the idea of contacts via Curragh but we do not have a coastal city yet. We need to send a warior out but it does not look like we have many of those either.
Having not met anyone yet, I'd go with your thoughts on the next tech, HBR if horses and IW if not.
I'd settle the western dot next. That will give us some time to road/build barrack or wall before the angrey hoards arrive to attack Athens from the mountains.
Move the eastern dot NW one squeare. It should still be on the coast and 3 from Athens and Termopylae.
Sparta is well protected. With the hills, 2BG and a forest, this could be our Library location. A worker next will be close to the growth.
I vote for another settler out of Athens.
I like the idea of contacts via Curragh but we do not have a coastal city yet. We need to send a warior out but it does not look like we have many of those either.
Having not met anyone yet, I'd go with your thoughts on the next tech, HBR if horses and IW if not.
Justus II
General Staff
Dot map looks OK with me, I'll agree with 6th Gen if we can move the eastern dot. I'd also go along with another settler from Athens, to grab the western dot, rooting enemies out of mountains is a pain, so if we can push our borders to the far side, we'll be better off.
I'd actually also recommend swapping Sparta to a settler, instead of the rax, if it's going to be our GL city, we won't be building military for a while there, and it's backline anyway. Get a quick settler out to claim the furs, then let it build some workers and develop the terrain before we start the pre-build. We're still in a window of no contacts, get some quick expansion in while we can. By the time we build our coastal city (which the easst city would be the closest to our likely exploring direction), we can kick out a curragh.
I'd actually also recommend swapping Sparta to a settler, instead of the rax, if it's going to be our GL city, we won't be building military for a while there, and it's backline anyway. Get a quick settler out to claim the furs, then let it build some workers and develop the terrain before we start the pre-build. We're still in a window of no contacts, get some quick expansion in while we can. By the time we build our coastal city (which the easst city would be the closest to our likely exploring direction), we can kick out a curragh.
Nick014
Deposed Despot
If I can see it correctly, that's a hoplite SW of Thermopylae. In my opinion we should change the archer build in athens to a hoplite; we will definitely need them later in the game while archers will have (comparatively) limited use when horesmen come around.
My vote is for the dot west of athens, although I'd move it one SW to put it on the river. It should be a fairly productive city with all those forests around to work and chop.
My vote is for the dot west of athens, although I'd move it one SW to put it on the river. It should be a fairly productive city with all those forests around to work and chop.
I totally agree to a few archers early, we want to hold off our GA as long as possible. We'll get there sooner or later, but archers got offense and bombard in defense. So a stack of 3-4 archer will do a world of good, compared to the defensive hoplite.
Of course we want a whole bunch of hoplites, but early on archers combined with mountains are lethal...at least to warriors
The 2 tundra cities near the furs are placed like that for the towns to work a fur each.
Sparta's barracks are too late to change now, it should never started one. A warrior or two and then settler would've been preferred. But still, a barracks is never really bad if we need to whip something out of the town. And we can afford a gold/turn just to be fancy
I won't play until late tomorrow my time, so you have plenty of time to trash my ideas.
Of course we want a whole bunch of hoplites, but early on archers combined with mountains are lethal...at least to warriors
The 2 tundra cities near the furs are placed like that for the towns to work a fur each.
Sparta's barracks are too late to change now, it should never started one. A warrior or two and then settler would've been preferred. But still, a barracks is never really bad if we need to whip something out of the town. And we can afford a gold/turn just to be fancy
I won't play until late tomorrow my time, so you have plenty of time to trash my ideas.
grs
nameless one
Nick014
Deposed Despot
yeah, I totally forgot that hoplites would trip our GA, which is something we'd like to hold off on for as long as possible. I'm just used to thinking long-term, and horses will render the archers/longbows pretty much useless on the large scale when we get that far.
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You are playing AW. A barracks IS an optimal build. Part of the key high kill ratios. Vet units will improve your kill ratio. This is the same reason to build catapults.microbe said:
I agree. However, you don't know how long until you have horses or iron on-line. You may go longer then you think with archers. One of the AW rules is assume worse case for resources and build your plans on that.nick014 said:
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One comment on all the dot maps. I try to show the roads that are required to connect the city to the network. This helps to show how many cities will support the city, how difficult to connect (road through 2 mountains), and helps to confirm 3 tiles away.
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