Mickey Mouse Degrees

[Elta]

Lastly, there is almost no such thing as a real education in liberal arts. Liberal arts classes are GPA buffers for anyone taking a serious major. Whereas, science classes are nightmares for the vast majority of liberal/fine arts majors. Most liberal arts majors will never get a return on their investment. Especially those attending state schools in Nevada.

I have yet to spend a dime on school, all of it being covered by pell grants and scholarships. The median wage for a G.I.S. Specialist is 60k, after 15 years the median is over 85k. What a waste of time learning about what I am passionate about for a fair wage. What am I doing in college?

Who would hirer someone from Nevada? ...... Everyone knows that all of the educated people in this country are science majors from private schools in the northeast.



Dude get a grip on reality, you sound like a fool.

 

[Earthling]

Well, except Architecture, if you chose to class that as a technical field. It's pretty lefty, probably because it sits right on the edge like that.

erm... my dad is an Architect (Master's from Houston) and is liberal, does architect count as an engineer anyway?

Yes, I would count architects but really more as civil engineering, which is something I'm sure is being forgotten by others arguing about engineering.

So, anyway, I know there's no way to convince someone who's committed to arguing with anecdotes and no data, though I think there is some truth in that mechanical engineering may be one of the more conservative engineering disciplines. Again I see everyone who was arguing about scientists being conservative gave up - though I wonder if Pat concluding "liberals aren't based in reality" would suddenly believe "conservatives aren't based in reality" when confronted with the data showing scientists are overwhelmingly not conservative.

But anyway, here's what ACTUAL DATA this thread could use, otherwise; well, we have evidence that engineers supported Democratic politicians more, and that engineers and scientists in universities ARE moderate-to-liberal as I already said. So if anyone has more statistics on engineers, these are probably the fields to look at:
-Mechanical Engineering
-Electrical Engineering
-Chemical Engineering
-Civil Engineering
-Computer Science/Engineering

Beyond that (and small engineering fields that obviously fit, though I suspect statistics would be near impossible to find, as they already kinda are for some of these fields) I'm not going to try to take something that is debateable and argue where it falls- chemistry/physics/biology can fall under the sciences. I already anticipate the debate is going to boil down to "Computer Science and Civil Engineering and x don't count and Mech E's are conservative anyway!" We're also lacking in a bunch of other things to define what are standards are, for instance compared to other college degrees there is relative conservatism, but I still find no data or reason to conclude that engineers are conservative relative to the general populace. If you want to set a pre-defined "center" go ahead, but you have to explain what you're up to. Also, I found the link from the other thread about scientists, where less than 10% are conservative/Republican on many measures/self-ID:

http://people-press.org/reports/pdf/528.pdf

What does opposing homosexuals or being above average religious have to do with being conservative?

Oh yeah, forgot this couldn't be let slide. I mean, I know you're an American and we're talking about the US here, so seriously? Like the whole of social conservatism today is defined by these issues, plus abortion I guess. Pro-life, for "traditional marriage," and "Christian values" are essential aspects of conservatism. If someone isn't these things, it would be really hard or requiring other extremist views to say they're not a moderate or even liberal in US parlance. If this changes your belief that engineers are conservative, then it's your problem for having really weird definitions.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Nope, my minor is Literature..

Yeah. I got that. From RPI. I even googled it and checked the minor out before responding. I'm still recovering from the shock. While that is certainly different from my days at good ole Ga Tech, I still don't think it is comparable to what you would find at a real liberal arts college with tenured profs who could teach anywhere.

And 99% of liberal arts majors couldn't write such a paper either.

Well, I sure didn't want to write the Mark v John paper myself so I assigned it to my wife.

But I certainly could have, as did everybody else in the class.

Our degree program is specifically oriented to promote a well rounded student.

Because that is what they told you? Or because you have attented a liberal arts college and actually know from experience what you are talking about?

As I do, which is I why I never suggested any of this.

It certainly didn't sound that way to me:

In short, engineers do not think like liberals.

Engineer's didn't like McCain, nor Bush. Engineers have a solid education so why vote for a Republican.

I think you should think about spicing up your rhetoric with a few qualifiers. I'm not going to suggest that every liberal arts major knows this, but...

 

[mangxema]

A lot of young engineers are socially liberal.

I have found this to be true as well.

Engineer's didn't like McCain, nor Bush. Engineers have a solid education so why vote for a Republican. I don't know a whole lot of people who agree with Republicanism either. I didn't vote for McCain. I despise Republicanism. Younger engineers are put off by the socially conservative nature and its obsession with religion in my experience.

I would second this except possibly the McCain bit. Most of my classmates voted for Obama, but I know of several that respected the man (edit: i.e., McCain) and could have voted for him, especially the 2000 unpalinized vintage.

Could you write a term paper about Jesus' self-image in the book of Mark as compared to John? Can you discuss the prevalence of mythology in western religions?

And that is useful how?

If you're that interested in mythology, go read a book.

But where do the books come from, you ask... well fine. If that is what you love, go do it and be happy. But don't make it sound like we have a devastating flaw in our education because we don't know the intricacies of Greek tragedies. Who cares?

 

[Earthling]

I don't agree with this either. It's pretty split. A hard split. I know just as many rightish scientists as I do leftists.

Actually, yeah, this needs to be clearly pointed out that it's VERY WRONG. I'm open to seeng some actual statistics on engineers and engineering disciplines, but for the hard sciences it's nowhere close. So I'll take time for excerpts from this:

http://people-press.org/reports/pdf/528.pdf

Scientists Have More Positive View
of Gov’t, Less Positive View of Business

When something is run
by gov’t it is usually inefficient and wasteful
Percentages Public Scientists
Agree .........57 ..........40
Disagree .....39 ..........58
Don't Know/No answer ...4 ...2

Business corps. generally
strike a fair balance between profits and public interest
Percentages Public Scientists
Agree ..........37 ........20
Disagree .......58 .........77
Don’t know/No answer ..5 ....2

Partisan and Ideological Differences
% who are… Public Scientists
Democrat ......35 .......55
Republican .....23 ........6
Independent ...34 ......32

Ideological self-rating
Liberal ..........20 .........52
Moderate ......38 ........35
Conservative ..37 ........9

Scientists as a group are…
Percentages............Public....Scientists
Politically liberal .........20 ........56
Politically conservative 9 ...........2
Neither in particular ....64 .........42
Don’t know ................8 ............1

Party Affiliation among Scientists
(Rep Dem Ind in that order)
All scientists 6 55 32

Employment sector.R..D..I
Government .........7 52 33
Academic ............5 60 30
Industry ..............10 47 37
Non-profit ............3 55 32

Field........................R..D..I
Biological and Medical 6 58 31
Chemistry ................9 49 37
Geosciences .............4 62 25
Physics and Astronomy 6 53 35

 

[Formaldehyde]

If you're that interested in mythology, go read a book.

that is exactly what happens at liberal arts colleges. How many non-work related books have you read since you graduated?

Who cares?

You mean other than the poor schmucks who are likely going to have to work for an engineer or a business school graduate with a substandard formal education? While it is no panacea to study the humanities, I think doing so gives you lot more appreciation for different people and various cultures in general. And in doing so, it makes you generally more liberal.

 

[mangxema]

Are Greek tragedies likely to come up during common workplace discussion?

I mean, if your argument is about being able to communicate effectively, I would consider that a valid (though imho unwarranted) concern. The examples that you cite, however, are just ridiculous.

 

[Kerozine]

I'd only be concerned about who foots the bill for tuition for apparently useless degrees/certifications.

 

[Elta]

GRE scores by Majors:

http://www.iupui.edu/~philosop/gre.htm


Also, thank you for the links Earthling, lots of interesting information there

 

[Earthling]

The link was already given by Mark in another thread I think, though the focus was on "public ignorance about science" or something and not political affiliation, but the data is there and it's a nice study. Also, I know someone posted stuff like "IQ by major/degree" on CFC before but that's not relevant to the debate that's developed between some posters here. Lastly, I have to still side against Form on a matter of opinion- I really don't care much if many engineers don't know classical history/theology/Latin because I think it's orders of magnitudes worse for society that liberal arts majors have no clue about math, statistics, or science in general.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Are Greek tragedies likely to come up during common workplace discussion?

Well, seening that I never mentioned Greek tragedies...

And if you haven't ever read Lysistrata, I'd highly recommend it even though it is a comedy instead of a tragedy.

I mean, if your argument is about being able to communicate effectively, I would consider that a valid (though imho unwarranted) concern. The examples that you cite, however, are just ridiculous.

It is not just communicating effectively, although that is certainly a component. Once again, it is about learning more about other people and their cultures to compare and contrast them to you own. It is about getting a sense of how it all fits together; about how it has changed with time and what the common roots are. It is about learning how to think for yourself and how to research virtually any topic. It is about being a mensch.

And I'd still like to know how many non-work-related books you have read since graduating...

http://people-press.org/reports/pdf/528.pdf

Here's my favorite table from that particular poll:

Contribute “a lot”
to society’s well-being…

Members of military 84
Teachers 77
Scientists 70
Medical doctors 69
Engineers 64
Clergy 40
Journalists 38
Artists 31
Lawyers 23
Business executives 21

So much for polls and the people who typically respond to them...

 

[Traitorfish]

Yes, I would count architects but really more as civil engineering, which is something I'm sure is being forgotten by others arguing about engineering.

Well, architecture is certainly a technical field, but whether or not it's treated as a form of engineering often depends on where you go. In Germany and Japan, for example, all architects are engineers, while in the US and UK architecture and architectural engineering are two distinct professions. The reason that they have not been acknowledged so far is probably because of the primarily anglophonic nature of the forum.

 

[Earthling]

No, I'm pretty sure it's because "architects/civil engineers tend to be moderate or liberal" runs against what other posters want to prove/believe about the world. Though I'm curious why Merk was and continued to disagree so much when he also observed in his anecdotal experience that young engineers are socially liberal, and furthermore even said that 5 out of 30 of his classmates were, as he defined, "eco-fascists." I mean, this has to be like 10x the percentage in the general population, yet leads him to conclude everone is conservative...

Also, I found another study on US college professors - for all our google-fu I do have to say it's unfortunate there isn't as much data on students/professions in general as we could hope, one can find results from Norway or Poland or the 1960s. But this source finds many of the same conclusions independently so if someone needs definitive facts about college professors they're now on their way (and again, it's not been found that college professors tend to be conservative in really any major technical field, that's just been shot down.)

http://www.cwu.edu/~manwellerm/academic bias.pdf

 

[mangxema]

Well, seening that I never mentioned Greek tragedies...

And if you haven't ever read Lysistrata, I'd highly recommend it even though it is a comedy instead of a tragedy.

True. I was not trying to put words in your mouth. I simply picked another old and largely irrelevant topic. Your post had the implication that since those things are not discussed, scientific/engineering curricula are 'substandard', as if there was some sort of standard checklist of random trivia one must know to be considered an educated person... to which I replied: 'Who cares about that stuff?' I couldn't care less if you can conjugate in Swahili; it's not useful in everyday life. It's not going to come up in any professional situations.

(Unless, of course, you were using your 'Outdoor Adventure Leadership' degree to run an African safari tour... )

It is not just communicating effectively, although that is certainly a component. Once again, it is about learning more about other people and their cultures to compare and contrast them to you own. It is about getting a sense of how it all fits together; about how it has changed with time and what the common roots are. It is about learning how to think for yourself and how to research virtually any topic. It is about being a mensch.

Aside from the people-oriented aspect, you get that too in the sciences. Thinking for yourself, research, understanding the different parts of the machine, comparing and contrasting approaches, etc... that's all there. And I really don't think you can top an evolutionary biologist when it comes to common roots and change over time.

And I'd still like to know how many non-work-related books you have read since graduating...

Sorry... As of right now, about three and a half. Honestly though, I am a terrible datum for your survey because I just graduated in May and have spent the majority of my time from then until about mid-October finding a job, moving to a different state, and getting settled here. So really, I've had maybe two months in which I actually have leisure time. I've got two more in the pipe, but it's holiday season, so I have less free time.

So much for polls and the people who typically respond to them...

In all fairness, in the era of infotainment, you can't expect journalists to be rated particularly highly. I know.. it's not quite the same, but it all gets lumped into the same newsy category in a general poll like this.

 

[MobBoss]

Pat gets the Crystal ball award of the thread....

I am actually betting on another incorrect use of the word irony, he is due.

Now there is some sweet irony given that I have admitted numerous times in this forum I had my facts wrong or I was in error.

Ironically, there is an excellent example of not being "grounded in the realities" by stereotyping liberals as daydreamers who are so fixated by some idealized utopia they can't even properly perform their jobs.

Nice Job Pat. Now can you pick my lotto numbers?

 

[mangxema]

Well, architecture is certainly a technical field, but whether or not it's treated as a form of engineering often depends on where you go. In Germany and Japan, for example, all architects are engineers, while in the US and UK architecture and architectural engineering are two distinct professions. The reason that they have not been acknowledged so far is probably because of the primarily anglophonic nature of the forum.

From what I've seen of architecture (which is admittedly very little), they merely design things, while the civil engineers do the math and such to make sure that the sketches are actually doable. That is not to say that there is no overlap--it would be wise for the architect to not submit unrealistic plans and the engineers should have some sense of aesthetics--but they seem to be two separate disciplines that work closely together.

 

[Karalysia]

Well I recently declared my majors in Poli Sci and History. How worthless am I?

 

[mangxema]

I'd consider that a respectable combo, roughly summarized as 'Let's not do stupid **** again.'

 

[Elta]

Well I recently declared my majors in Poli Sci and History. How worthless am I?

Sounds good dude, perfect for becoming a *Pundit - maybe we'll get to see you on tv all of the time




*Think tank would work too really.

 

[Karalysia]

Sounds good dude, perfect for becoming a *Pundit - maybe we'll get to see you on tv all of the time




*Think tank would work too really.

Well I'm planning on law school ultimately so more likely you'll see me unemployed. With the massacre of the legal industry in every field except bankruptcy there are no jobs and I will die alone under a mountain of debt, (instead of cocaine which is every lawyers dream)