Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (part-hex)

[PCHighway]

Posted on- Sep 14th 7:33am.

I'm back, with a vengeance. I've shot down so many ideas in this thread, it's not even funny... Well, slightly funny.
It was a long post, and I can't be held responsible for any grammatical errors.

Arathorn-
I'm just here eagerly awaiting the next set of techs. I figure we need a minimum of 70 to give the mod a real full feel. We're at "55", but many of them need to be eliminated (and 29 was skipped). mrtn and PCH have been promising a fuller 2nd/3rd/4th era list for a while...and I'm eagerly awaiting it.

Well, we are at 67 now, and later tonight I will send a rough draft of possible Wonder techs to Mrtn, that will push us well over 70. Even while molding the tree, we will have it in our power to add more tech that will surely come to our minds, with new units, brainstorms and etc.

Sir John-
Im not sure if the easterlings and the southrons should be separate but If we have enough information an stuff about them and that it would be at least somewhat histroicly correct then I guess I could agree with that...

Maby it give mordor some weak balrogs in the begnning and then only make them better trough upgrading them..

Well I am, the 'Southrons' and 'Easterlings' should be separate, and they would adequately represent Near and Far Harad. Moreover, Balrogs were largely wiped out in the second age’s War of Wrath. So how, may I ask would they be still existent and upgraded throughout the other three era’s. It’s all about accuracy, there is no place for an army of 7 Balrogs in the third age, IMO.

The Last Conformist-
PCHighway: I was thinking mainly of a ME map re: Umbarites vs Southrons.

I was also mainly thinking of them as late 3rd Age Corsairs, but now you've got it into my head that it would be cool with early 3rd Age Black Numenorians - evil Gondorians, essentially.

One possibility is having them being "evil Gondorians" form the better part of the game, and in the final part they get alot of Corsairy units.

Just my €.02

That sounds like a good idea. And would make perfect sense for the ME Map version. But the problem is, Umbar is a relatively small area, and the entire structure of this civ would be by going out and sacking cities. Yet they are extremely accessible, Gondor doesn’t have to travel very far to fight them. I don’t envision them lasting very long.

Sir John-
Ok, I see that they are wf units... sorry for that


About the elven calvalry: It should defnitivly have two attacks. One with a bow and one with a sword.. I dont think they used spears.. The only time Iknow of an elf with a spear wa the last alliance dudes with their spears\halberds... I think we should have some halberd units as well as they are cool (and was in ME)

Well, we do have the AoK Halberdier as the 'pike-man' but we can easily re-name it to Poleaxe Infantry, or something in that vein. The reason I didn't name it Halberdier, is this is largely a renaissance unit, used as an elite guard in many cases, and not widely used. The halberd was more complex than a spear-axe or a pole-axe. I will look up the time of the Last Alliance and check it out all the same.

Doc M-
Wood Elf Cavalry, maybe short golden sword?

Sir John-
I was thinking more like steel\silver...

The elves used more the normal thing to make weapons.. (then they enchanted them)

If u make a high elf calvalry as well then he could use more like a golden sword..

First, lets clear some things up, I think Doc M was referring to a golden decorated sword SirJohn. Not actually the blade of the sword made solely of Gold, that would be stupid. Gold is a soft metal, steel cleaves through it as if it were copper.

tjedge1-
The Wood Elf Cavalry would be best with bow and the Noldo elves could have sword cavalry.

Agree, High Elf units should be represented with swords, It states so clearly that the two Houses of the Noldor started to construct swords in Valinor (at Melkors urging?).

It also states clearly that the Dwarves of Belegost first started the crafting of Swords for Thingol, in the time of their alliance. So I would imagine the Wood Elves would be more fond of the bow, not only this, I also remember reading it was so. Way back when I was wondering if we should include Horse Archers in the unit lines.

Sir John-
I do think we should work paralell on stuff... There are manythings in a mod that interveenes so it would be wrong not to so...

after all 3+3+3+3 = 12 and so does 6+6....

So we wont be slowed down by it since we do more things at once...

Maybe, but then again we all don't share the same opinion. Which, in turn makes me have to spend 5 hours making this post, to correct most of you peoples inaccurate information.

SoCalian
That's all for tonight folks. I'm getting tired and have to go to bed. In the mean time I would like you to look over the city lists. Especially consider the Ents. I am prepared to defend them, and am absolutly sure the could work in this mod.

Sleep is for suckers. Ents work in this Mod? That is one of the stupidest things I have heard today, and shockingly, your not the first\only person to bring it up, that shows good marks for you, and bad for me.

A Gaia civ would adequately represent them, and No cities are needed. Moreover, having one city serves as what purpose? A gaia civ would have invisible cities, if we plan to implement it.

And these city lists, they are highly controversial, and definitely shouldn’t be included in the form you posted. Hollin? Ossirand? Gelion the river as a city for the make believe civ of Ossirand? Lay off the city lists for a while...
These are geographic locations, not cities, nor civs. Tol Galen is the equivalent of adding ‘My house’ as a city. And is rather stupid. I suppose sleep is a good thing for some people. You are thinking to local, we don’t need a separate civ for each realm of Middle-earth, if it went your way there would be a civ ‘Northern waste’. Wait until we decide on a complete civ listing. As for the Green-elves, they were only in Ossirand for the first age, not worth a civ . Don’t worry though, perhaps half of the Ossirand cities could be used in a first age scenario.

SoCalian-
@ mrtn: I could see Hollin as part of Lorien. Celeborn and Galadriel were romoured to be the founders of it, before they moved to Lorien. Although it is gennerally considered to have been founded by Celebrimbor. Lorien should most definatly be included as a seperate civ from the Noldor. Lorien was considered to be a nation, and at one time a very powerful one at that. plus we need to have Celeborn as a Ruler somewhere.

Once again, thinking to local. The Greek city states all played an important part in Greek history... But each would not be necessary for a Mediterranean Mod. We don't need each city as a civilization! As for Lorien, another controversial one. What did they do in the second age? Nothing big, and aren’t important until the Third age I.E. the last era of this Middle-earth Mod. We will have to think it over.

Once again, the Limelight, Silverlode and more than half of the city listing are rivers, or geographic locations. In some cases, such as the Celebrant and Silverlode, which are the same river.
Adding the word ‘Green’ before the River Celebrant doesn’t change anything, and is a made up city.
There are some more rivers, the Nimrodel, Ninglor? Every link in T.E.A. doesn’t make a good city. Not even going to touch on the others, but lets just say they need to be ‘un-revised’.

Sir John-
What that name ur using for tech 64 mrtn? what does it mean? It sounds more like a early tech when u mention the word warrior..

Prevalence, it means the prevail, victory, in the Middle ages it took a military edge, and started to mean “superiority in numbers” ‘To be Prevalent’ ‘To be dominate’. And fits well for the tech name, if I do say so myself.

SoCalian-
So here are the civs that I would like. * indicated city list arready made.

Elves
Vanyar Elves (Aman)
Noldor Elves (Beleriand)* (going to expand the list)
Sindar Elves (Bereriand)
Lorien/Hollin*
Rivendale/Gray Havens
Mirkwood Elves
Ossiriand*

Dwarves
Dwarves* (going to expand the list)

Men
Numenor*
Gondor*
Arnor*
Rohan*
Easterlings
Haradrim* (needs expansion)
Dale*
Bree

Evil
Isengard
Mordor*
Angmar/Nothern Orcs
Angband*

Hobbits
The Shire*

Other
Ents*
Eagles

I disagree with pretty much all fo those. I don’t think; The Vanyar, Rivendell, Mirkwood, Ossiriand, Dale, Bree, Ents, and Eagles should be civilizations, because they weren't. And for the ones that were, such as the Vanyar, they don’t even exist on Middle-earth at this time. The First age represent the First age of the Sun Or the First age of the awakening of Men

 

[PCHighway]

Part Two

Sir John-
The only civ I cant see that belong here is grey havens...
wasnt grey havens only like one place only?

Ans what abot having the ents and eagles as a Gaia civ?

I know that it wouldnt be completely historicly correct but afaik the elves was at leats early in the first age good friends with the ents.. and what about having an entwife as a unit?

I got news for you, Rivendell, Ossirand, Dale, and Bree “is like, one place only” also . Entwife as a unit? What have you been smoking? Ents and Eagles should be included in the Gaia part of the game, which I might add, is one of the most unique, initiative, and innovative things we have going for us.

SoCalian-
Could have entwives as workers. I also forgot Ossiriand, I'll add it to the list of civs I want. We could probobally combine Rivendale and Gray Havens. And about the eagles, I have good way to implement them that I will outline when I put up thier city list. The only problem for the eagles is a city list, but I am sure that I can dig up something. The major problem now is that there are so many culture groups, and only five that we can have. It may help though if I describe what I think the city graphics for the culture groups should look like.

Hobbits: Hobbit holes

Men:Very Castle/Fortress looking. I have found some very good graphics here There are also some vey use full vaiations at the same link.

Elves: Lots of trees with some Rivendaletype architecture thrown in for good measure. Because of the trees we could add the Ents into this group.

Evil: lots of towers, with a lot of "darkness" about them just so they look evil. Here are some that would work well.

Dwarves: They should look a lot like mountains, Because they mostly lived under mountans. The eagles lived mostly on top of mountains so we could put them there.

Dig up something for the Eagles city listing? You can’t, because a river, field, and a mountain is not a city. GAIA, nature, it’s the wave of the future man, stop living, like in the 90's man . Pfft, Entwife worker? You some type of sexist?
Regarding Culture groups.
This is what I would have, not regarding geographical areas, not regarding Culturally linked starting locations, regarding city graphics.

Edain\Eldar- (Gondorian Men, Elven Allies, Noble men, Noldorian Elves, etc.)
Men- (Wooden house type buildings- Rohan, Easterlings, Southrons, Hobbits, Some Avari)
Evil- (Mordor, Isengard, etc.)
Dwarves- (Dwarven cities, Moria, Belegost, etc.)
Gaia- (Nature, invisible cities, includes Ents, Eagles, Certain mountains, not playable)

SoCalian-
I know I have prety much taken it upon myself to make city lists, But If you have anything to add to any of the lists including editor flags, or Great Leaders please post them.

You have, but rest assured, they aren’t even close to final! I mean Bree a civilization!?!?! Come on now!

Balrog-
Nice, good luck with the mod. I always wanted to see a decent LotR mod, I hope that you guys will make it.
Maybe I wont need to make it myself than.

It's not about making a Mod. Any one of us could have completed a “LotR” Mod in a month working on it alone. It’s about people who have interested in Middle-earth history. It's about pleasing all LotR fanatic’s\Civfanatic’s out there. It's about updating the MOD regularly. It’s about making sure one of us atleast carries on the MOD, and makes sure it gets finished.

[Ant]Wimp-
I suggest u scrap the Bree civ. It would be too pathetic. And in LotR, Angmar and Angband would answer to Mordor, so they shouldnt be seperate civs imho.

I’m liking this guy already. This is a person alike to my ideas, LoL .

Dugall McKangis-
I've only just skimmed the thread a couple of times so far so forgive me if I've overlooked something.

As for comments on the suggested Civs.. I've just finished looking at the existing Middle Earth maps and there is no chance all of those civs are going to fit. Angband for example is about as far off the existing maps as you can get (outside of the Undying lands). Numenore is the same.

Basically you guys sound like you need a map of the entire continent plus the island of Numenore.

Caveats of a map this size as I'm quickly discovering, much detail is lost. The area in which LoTR takes place is very small compared to the rest of the lands. One problem I'm having at the moment that I don't think can be resolved for example: There really is no room for Moria as a city between Rivendell and Isengard. It could fit but there is no room for the city influence to expand.

I'm currently working on a 256x256 map. I have one other observation having played a map of this size. There is plenty of room for 16 civs to settle the maximum number of cities and still have land left over. I played such a map through to a diplomatic victory and in all that time not one single conflict broke out between any nations. Perhaps it was a fluke or perhaps available land for settlement is a factor when the AI considers starting a war? To that end I can't really say.

Since I'm already working on a map I would welcome feedback if you guys are interested in using it. The thought occurs to me that you can't really figure out all your civs and where they should go without taking the limitations and geography of the map into account. Or you'll be sorely disappointed when things don't fit right.

On the most basic level I'm really working on this map for me. I'll finish it if you guys like it or not. But if you're interested I'd be more than happy to work with you with it.

Skimmed all 7 threads, or just this one? Sorry, I haven't been around to post much, but I will take a look at your thread soon. Perhaps you could post an attachment, that includes your latest work on it? You could update the attachment regularly. Because honestly, through pictures we can't tell much. We were planning on hitting someone up for a giant map, perhaps Yoda Power. If no one accepted I was going to use El Mency's map converter to create a basic map, then add things to it, to fit the MOD.
Even if this map is perfectly accurate, we will have to add\take a few things away on it, to make it correspond the MOD more accurately. Of course, all credits would go to you for making it, and the little things would be small, mainly just resources.

Sir John-
I dont think we need a map that includes the undying lands. The ones on the undying lands (the valar++) Will not be in the mod.. AFAIK... Some of the civs like angband was supposed to be on a random map..

Angbad wasn't supposed to be a civ. As for Valinor, that was supposed to be a separate version, with just a map of Valinor, not Middle-earth also. Perhaps West ME, but that would be it.

Dugall McKangis-
However, a map of just the one continent can be made. As to whether or not it's going to be any good, wait and see. I imagine a lot of that will be based on what each individual wants to see.

If you want a map with the LoTR areas where the Shire has a lot of detail then no a map of the continent won't work since the Shire at the moment takes up about a 3x3 space.

I was also planning on hitting Yoda Power up for some 'Local maps' Standard or large maps, based on specific areas, such as Mordor\Gondor, Rohan\Isengard, Dwarves of Belegost\Thingols Kingdom, Beleriand, etc.

tjedge1-
Actually Isengard didn't "invent" uruk-hai. That is a movie mis-conception. They were created in Mordor. Saruman Uruk-hai may have been created differently than Saurons but Sauron still had them as well. Someone had to lead the squabbling orcs. Saruman's might have had Dunlending blood mixed in with his. Sauron may have used a Variag or other Southron. I think Isengards UU should be a kamakazie orc that blows itself up when it bombards.

Just how would you get a Golden Age out of a kamikaze Orc?

Mithadan-
Way to reason it out, Sir John.

Welcome Back, thats the Mithadan we know and love, unremorseful and violent. You’re here to stay, I hope

Balrog-
What about Isengard Orcs: Uruk Hai of the White Hand ---
Mordor Orcs: Uruk Hai of the Red Hand

Isn’t that exactly what Sir John said?

Kal-el -
If the dead rat is correct then that seems to clear up the problem.

He isn't, Uruks is simply derogatory slang for Uruk-Hai, used to simplify the already simplistic language of the Orcs. using the great site Mithadan posted a long time back, view it here, we see that 'urukî' means Horrors, simply. The site muses that urukî would be used when Morgoth tranformed them from Elves:

Uruk may be similar to Quenya urco, orco or Sindarin orch, but it is identical to the ancient Elvish form *uruk (variants *urku, *uruku, whence Q urco, and *urkô, whence perhaps S orch). But how could Sauron know Primitive Quendian? Was he the one who took care of the Elves Morgoth captured at Cuiviénen, and perhaps even responsible for the "genetic engineering" that transformed them into Orcs? As a Maia, he would easily have interpreted their tongue (WJ:406). To the first Elves, Morgoth and his servants would be *urukî or "horrors", for the original meaning of the word was that vague and general, and Sauron may have delighted in telling the captured Elves that they were to become *urukî themselves. In his mind, the word evidently stuck.

They also say 'hai' means different breeds of a 'superior breed' done by Sauron, Such as Olgo-Hai. They say it most likely means a type of 'race' probably a superior type.

SoCalian-
Explosives seem very plausible indeed. IIRC, the third age is soposed to corolate to be around the end of the Middle Ages in real history. Since there were shuch weapons in real life at about that time, and given the textural support, I think we should include a cruise missile type unit availible only to the evil civs at the end of the third age.

Not so, it is a mix of high Middle ages, and dark Middle ages. The Middle ages did not end with the advent of Gunpowder, that just when things started to flourish. Fier Canadian is probably right, a type of Greek Fire is more likely. Don’t forget, the Arabs and Persians actually used a type of porcelain\pottery\glass bomb, that exploded with a fuse. A type of Grenade used around A.D. 1000. Not surprising, as they would have had contact with the Chinese, who had a Land Mine (That is Underground Sky-Soaring Thunder IIRC, and I am sure I do) developed by the late 1200's. Most likely the grenade was a combination fo the Byzantines use of Greek Fire, and some Chinese trade.

This is the kind of primitive explosives is probably the kind used by Sauron in ME IMO. Don’t forget the siege of Gondor, the catapult fire bursted into flame after contact. Or in the air, Tolkien even makes a point at saying this.

Mithadan-
What are we talking about anyway? I've been away for a month. I noticed in the previous thread there was some fighting going on about whether to do techs before units. Did we already finish the techs, then, or what? Holy crapola, though, I don't want to have to read both them thar long threads. Too much gonja!

Mrtn and I are working on the techs, when they sound good, we will post a list. Then together, in a sub thread we and those interested in the techs will organize the tree. We will alert you when we start the thread.

Sir John-
Its actually quite simple:

Orc = Orc
Uruk = Crossbreed of Orc and what is known in norwegian as a vette. Its a orc kind of thing that is way weaker but can withsatnd sunlight and have great endurance..
Uruk Hai = Sarumans crossbreed of men and Uruks..

You just made that up Sir John , not a good idea. Tolkien deliberately refers to the breeds between Men and Orcs as ‘half-Orcs’ Not Uruk-Hai .

Dugall McKangis-
Personally I'm wondering how you guys plan on making what is essentially a 1 man civ effective.

Saruman at the time lives in Orthanc, a single tower (constructed by Gondor interestingly enough). Who (to the best of my knowledge anyway) has no control over any cities. Nearby or otherwise, and while he has his own ambitions he does answer to Sauron.

What he does have is a huge production capacity to be pumping out armies.

The civ will start out as having man units, mainly defensive. As time passes, come the very late second age, or in Civ terms late 3rd era (can't be perfect) he will start to be able to make cheaper Orcs, and lots of different kinds, the cheaper not costing resources. We are thinking of giving him 5 settlers at the start, so he will then have 5 cities, to represent the Ring of Isengard.

Kal-el -
If the King flag (not the King AI Strategy) is used to represent the Characters then significant changes like Aragorns attitude shift can be represented in the mod, by setting certain "techs" to be used as event triggers, and once you reach that tech you can upgrade the Character to a new level.

This will work with PtW, you don't need C3C.

That’s funny, because I tried making Kings in MEM ungradable, and it would not work. Of course I was inspired by the same scenario you were, but as far as I can tell it doesn't work in PtW, only c3c. If it wouldn't be too much trouble, can you post a mini-bix that has one city, with a flagged king unit, and that upgrades? Or can you at least tell me you tested it in PtW.

Final Edit of Major grammatical errors done by- Sep 14th 7:56am.

 

[[Ant]Wimp]

I smell trouble with the civs. We should make a list of how many different types of scens we want to make, and then make city lists.

In any case, we want to make a scen in which u can sort of replay LotR.

For this, I suggest:

Mordor (being Mordor, Angmar + Misty Mountain Orcs)
Isengard (being Isengard and Dunland)
Rohan
Gondor (being Gondor, Rivendell? and the Shire)
Elves (being the Mirkwood and Lorien)
Dwarfs (Lonely Mountain, Blau mountain and Iron Hills)
Southrouns (near Harad and Umbar)
Easterlings

In any case, I say combine different civs. Probably not the way I presented above, but it was more to give examples.
One-city-civs are just not going to make a diffrence ingame (like Lorien, the Shire)

And in this scen, settlers should be unavalable, the city lists should be hard.
For the scens in which u start at year 0, should long city lists be made. And if there just arent enough real names (which I doubt), I think names of rivers are better then something like 'New Dol Amroth' or 'Dol Amroth 2"

 

[Doc M]

PCHighway, now that's what I call posting
Just one question, once you post techs that mrtn and you are making, there will be possible to edit?
And another thing, can you mark the techs that need new graphics (tech icons)?

 

[PCHighway]

[Ant]Wimp-
I smell trouble with the civs. We should make a list of how many different types of scens we want to make, and then make city lists.

In any case, we want to make a scen in which u can sort of replay LotR.

For this, I suggest:

Mordor (being Mordor, Angmar + Misty Mountain Orcs)
Isengard (being Isengard and Dunland)
Rohan
Gondor (being Gondor, Rivendell? and the Shire)
Elves (being the Mirkwood and Lorien)
Dwarfs (Lonely Mountain, Blau mountain and Iron Hills)
Southrouns (near Harad and Umbar)
Easterlings

In any case, I say combine different civs. Probably not the way I presented above, but it was more to give examples.
One-city-civs are just not going to make a diffrence ingame (like Lorien, the Shire)
And in this scen, settlers should be unavalable, the city lists should be hard.

Your talking about joining multiple scenarios to make a 'LotR campaign ' I assume? There are many things we can do for that, which will of course require the urging of the player to make things happen. There are many ideas mrtn and I have thought of, that would let you use many c3c features. Mrtn even had the brainstorm of being able to capture Gollum, to use as a guide. Lets talk about it when the MOD is actually completed .

[Ant]Wimp- For the scens in which u start at year 0, should long city lists be made. And if there just arent enough real names (which I doubt), I think names of rivers are better then something like 'New Dol Amroth' or 'Dol Amroth 2"

We may be able to rename this in the labels.txt, or in another .txt . Even so, naming the third city of Lorien after a river is a all around bad idea..

Doc M-
PCHighway, now that's what I call posting
Just one question, once you post techs that mrtn and you are making, there will be possible to edit?
And another thing, can you mark the techs that need new graphics (tech icons)?

That technically more than one question. Good idea though, we will assemble the ones that need new tech icon graphics. I have to sift through Yoda Powers collection of tech icons first, however. Edit them? Sure! In no way will it be final, we will delete, add and edit before we are through.
- - - - - - - -

SoCalian-
I have lost track of what exactaly we are working on right now. Is it the techs or the civs or the units or the graphics or........ It seems to me that we have gotten quite off track. As far as I can tell, I'm working on the Civs, trying to get up some city lists whenever possible, Mrtn and PCHighway are working on the Techs, and a few other people are working on graphics. In the meantime, the rest of us are carrying on semi-random discusions that, while they may be useful to the mod, don't get a whole lot done.

So that being said, here is how I think we should divide the labour:

*Mrtn and PCH: finish tech trees, when done post them here for final appoval.

*SoCalian: city lists. If you have anything to add to them just PM me

*Everyone: Civs first, then Units, then continue to go down the to do list in an orderly fashion

*Graphics: anything related to Graphics goes into the "LOTR Unit Preview" thread

I hope we can all agree to this. It will make progress go much faster.

I agree, this is a really good plan you set out. As we seem to be deadlocked as is. the only thing I would change is that a new LotM tech thread, should be posted to get everyone’s input. But I urge everyone that has no interest in techs, or ideas for them, Not to Post There.

 

[Sir John]

@PCH: I really dont like this. Its ok that u post ideas and stuff for the mod. But u can not just say NO. And THATS the way its going to be.. U make it sound like ur the boss of this mod making process. And u know what? Ur not! Evryone has got an equal say in this and u cant just decide things.

Also people might say something thats inncorect. But u dont have to harass people because of it. Also stop saying we when u actually mean you. Several people here among others me think that socalian have some good ideas about that small civ thingy..

And about the sword thiing; I meant ofcourse the color\top layer. I Ofcourse dont think the entire sword should be made in gold

 

[embryodead]

I am happy that aside from tolkien scholars there are also sane people here
I wanted to say the same: it is much better to get n-th city that is named after a real place or river, than get New Minas Tirith.
Same for factions. I prefer to have many of them, rather than 6-7 (c'mon, games with that number of civs are just boring, I normally play with 31 ). Sure Angmar/Angband answer to Mordor, but C3C has locked alliances option, so they will do it well as separate faction. Of course Ents or Eagles aren't good ideas for factions but do not join all in one, just because they share same goal in the book.
Remember this is going to be a civ3 mod, a playable one

 

[mrtn]

Originally posted by embryodead
I am happy that aside from tolkien scholars there are also sane people here
I wanted to say the same: it is much better to get n-th city that is named after a real place or river, than get New Minas Tirith.

I agree about this.

Originally posted by embryodead
Same for factions. I prefer to have many of them, rather than 6-7 (c'mon, games with that number of civs are just boring, I normally play with 31 ). Sure Angmar/Angband answer to Mordor, but C3C has locked alliances option, so they will do it well as separate faction. Of course Ents or Eagles aren't good ideas for factions but do not join all in one, just because they share same goal in the book.
Remember this is going to be a civ3 mod, a playable one

If you find 31 ME civs, then, fine. I don't think you will though. Dale isn't a civ, neither is Bree, Rivendell or Hollin. Just to name some examples. I'm not against adding many civs, I'm against adding cities as civs. Thus, I'd much rather combine civs to make really good ones.
And I don't like people who can play with 31 civs at their fast computer.

About the Uruks: We have one of the Uruk units in the unit lines, and said the other would be a UU. There's no need to waste 50 posts arguing about uruks in this stage of the mod making.

I think SoCalians post #94 was a constructive one, with the ammendments suggested by Kal-El and PCHighway.

 

[Mithadan]

Originally posted by PCHighway
Welcome Back, thats the Mithadan we know and love, unremorseful and violent. You’re here to stay, I hope

You do me honour. I'm back from holy-days, and I'll lurk around and throw in "comments" as I'm in-spired. (As per usual.)

 

[PCHighway]

Why are you knocking on me for making a post ? I didn’t think I hurt anyone’s feelings in it... I did have the trouble of having to many images and couldn’t include all the smilies I wanted. But even so I didn’t make the post simply to offend anyone, or to act like I was boss. Do you have some type of beef with me Sir John? I didn’t bother you.

Sir John-
@PCH: I really dont like this. Its ok that u post ideas and stuff for the mod. But u can not just say NO. And THATS the way its going to be.. U make it sound like ur the boss of this mod making process. And u know what? Ur not! Evryone has got an equal say in this and u cant just decide things.

I don't act like I am boss, Sir John. Now I post once a week here at tops, and when I do I add all posts up, and decide how they compare to my opinion. You will notice that tthere are at least 10 of SoCalians posts I didn’t bring up in my post, why? Because I thought they were good ideas!

If a post doesn’t agree to my opinion, I say so. If I think your wrong about wanting apples to be a resource instead of oranges, I will say so. And I will post things to back it up. I think when posting an opinion, I should say why I don't think so. If going and finding things to back up my opinion is wrong, you can sue me now. I'm not saying SoCalians ideas are wrong I am saying they are different than mine. If everyone wants a game with apples as a resource, instead of oranges, then thats what its going to be. regardless of my opinion.

If you are going to give me hell for spending five hours to state my opinion, to try and put my input into the mod, which happens to disagree with yours, then I am wasting my time, and I will leave now, no point in it. If I went about it in a ‘cocky’ manner then I am sorry, but those of you who know me will then in turn know I have strong opinions. Nothing you can say would get me to like this mod naming Rivers for cities. Unless there was a city named after the river.

Sir John- Also people might say something thats inncorect. But u dont have to harass people because of it. Also stop saying we when u actually mean you. Several people here among others me think that socalian have some good ideas about that small civ thingy..

I'm harassing people now?? 4 posts in 6 pages and I am harassing people. When I say ‘we’ I don’t mean ‘you’. All this was talked about way back. We, and I do mean we, had a big fight about what civilizations should be included, and at that time the majority (only 6 of us) said we would favor less civilizations that represented a broader scope.

This is what I founded the few of my city lists on, this is what SoCalian founded his city lists on also. I don’t like having to go back and re-argue not having the mod go like this for ever thing we argued on! It wasn’t fun arguing about it in the first place, and when it’s set up as the way to go, we shouldn’t have to go back and do this un-friendly arguing again. When I say we, I actually do mean we. And that is what we, including SoCalian agreed on.

If I think a civilization where a river is the third city on the list is wrong, then I will say so. If SoCalian thinks it's not wrong, he will say so also. thats how discussions go, SoCalian and I have already talked about this. He said a river is better then 'New Lorien'. And had a very good point, one of which I agree with.

To get around this, I would say this isn't important enough to be a civilization. Why not a Avari civ, including the Mirkwood elves and Lorien? I see no problem with this, and by viewing SoCalians posts on Rivendell and the Greyhavens, he also agrees in certain cases we should combine civs. Not only this it would make his work much easier. I don't want to come out at the end of the mod and say:
"Ok SoCalian I don't like having these cities named after rivers, can you scrap all your work on the Eagles\Ents and Lorien?" Which of course he would not comply with. No one would. this is the chance for me to get my opinion in, notice I said my opinion.

Thats is how an argument works, and afaik it's the only way to get a compromise. For instance; Why not a resource called fruits? And voila, a compromise between apples and oranges.

As for when I say things like ‘What have you two been smoking” This is a perfect common good-natured ribbing. I use it to my friends, and have had it used on me. It’s a joke, and what it should come across as. I don’t know that much about LotR, and on more than one occasion I have had to look up what SoCalian is talking about at TEA, as it is beyond me.

I didn’t want to offend SoCalian, he has contributed to this mod more than I have, and has helped me on more than one occasion.

But I am getting tired of this. Tired of having someone call me harassing after I have spent the majority of my free time the last four months trying to help out in this thread.
That’s not going to happen anymore.
What’s the point if I end up spending my time only to be insulted and called harassing?

 

[embryodead]

@mrtn
I wasn't asking for 31... but having say 16 would be better than 8... I agree about 1 city-civs (except for Isengard), though dumping Angmar, uniting all elves into one civ etc. is insane. I see that SoCalian's list without 1-city civs and gaians can have 14-16 entries.

Oh, my computer isn't that fast. It's more the size of a map, rather than number of civs that slow the game. I liked to play with 31 civs on standard map, it's quite crowded, but it's fun and more realistic than 8 empires size of russia.

As for the Isengard, in scen. it can be made powerful even if it's one city. Wonders and resources could make Isengard a power, though I guess it doesn't really matter at this stage.

 

[Sir John]

PCH: I dont want to insult u. U do have many good points but many times it just seems like the thread is going like this; Were discussing things and then u come and decide. Its probably not ecsatcly like that but thats the impression I get. U also dont seem to be able to make compromisses about many things. (im saying this as constructive criricism not to yell at u or something).

And btw: The harssing thing was just bad wording from me.. it came out harsher then it was suppsosed to.. srry bout that...

But what im saying is that u have to be more willing to compromise... Also about the little civs idea I think its a good idea, so does socalin and embryo so I think that sometimes u need to make a compromise and say something like; ok, but up to a certain degree. U need to more "bendable".. I hope u dont think I was to harsh..

 

[mrtn]

Originally posted by embryodead
@mrtn
I wasn't asking for 31... but having say 16 would be better than 8... I agree about 1 city-civs (except for Isengard), though dumping Angmar, uniting all elves into one civ etc. is insane. I see that SoCalian's list without 1-city civs and gaians can have 14-16 entries.
...
As for the Isengard, in scen. it can be made powerful even if one city. Wonders and resources could make Isengard a power, though I guess it doesn't really matter at this stage.

Sorry, I just used your post as a "stepping stone" for my arguments. It seems we two have roughly the same ideas about civs and cities.

I've got some neat ideas about Orthanc, but I'll wait with posting them.

 

[mrtn]

Originally posted by Sir John
.... Also about the little civs idea I think its a good idea, so does socalin and embryo ...

Originally posted by embryodead, in reply to me
...I agree about 1 city-civs (except for Isengard), ...

It seems to me that embryodead disagree with you. He can't agree with both of us.
Any word from the man himself?

 

[embryodead]

I agree (with mrtn/PCH) that 1 city-civs are not any good in the basic mod

OTOH, I am aware of the fact, that something has to be done with for example Bree or Dale in Lord of the Rings scenario. This could be sort of 1 city civ, but for that scenario only, for specific AI purpose (not for player to play...). But again, this is a scenario-specific idea, not a "civ".

 

[Dugall McKangis]

Well you know guys.. personally this is what I'm going to do. Wait patiently until all the unit and other graphics are done and make my own bloody mod the way *I* want it.

The more arguing that goes on the longer it will take. So here's an idea. Why not everyone who has not, or is not currently working on something for mod.. go away and discuss opinions somewhere else?

If people not working on the mod have an 'equal say' in how it's put together it'll never get done and this is going no where fast. Otherwise people who aren't happy with a 'decision' will simply start new arguements over the same things.. new people will come in they'll want to have their say. Starting old arguments all over again.

The decisions should be made by people doing the work. Now I know I came in late. I'm only working on the map.. but this is thread number what? 7 someone said? And people are still debating about civs? 1 thing which you can't really move forward with the rest of the mod until you have hammered out. That's insane.

If the posted lists of civs is final then why are you still debating whether or not to have some of them at all?

Well before mrtn posts ideas about Orthanc. My take on it is use of unique resources which 1: are required to build Orthanc's UU 2: have high shield bonus to boost production. 3: required to be within city limits to build any wonders unique to Orthanc. Such as a small wonder to allow them to produce armies etc or improve production even further.

I would do something similiar with Barad-dur. But then I'd use unique resources to put landmarks on the map.

Speaking of Orthanc. Great Wonder: Circle of Isengard, boost city defenses. Since that is what Isengard is, a wall surrounding Orthanc.

Not to post any opinion on 1 city civs but with proper use of unique resources they could be done somewhat well if not very well. 1 city civ good? bad? don't really care. But they are very doable.

 

[tjedge1]

Originally posted by PCHighway
Just how would you get a Golden Age out of a kamikaze Orc?

Has it ever been tried? I don't see why it wouldn't work. Besides. Why does a UU have to always start a golden age? Anyway, I think I later stated that Saruman should have Half-orcs. In case you weren't aware that means I changed my mind about kamikaze orcs.

I am not offended by your post PCHighway and I have my own opinions as well.

I do agree with not having very many if any 1 city civs. Except Isengard of course. As far as combining small civs, you could make Dale, Bree and any other small human majority towns become 1 civ called the free peoples or something. I remember that from an old board game. As far as anyone making the Shire anything but it's own civ is not good. There are enough cities mentioned in the books to make cities. And the defensive units for hobbits could be draftable and free of maintainence.

I don't like cities named after river either and to anyone who thinks they should be added can always add them to their downloaded mod in the rules menus. I have done that for other mods on many occasions. It's real simple.

 

[embryodead]

@Dugall McKangis,
While you are right that "modding teams" often fail to do anything more than putting down ideas, in this case, it has sense. You missed the first threads, and you obviously misunderstand the whole concept. As PCH said, anyone can do such mod in 1 month. Celebron started a thread called "LotR modders unite" to stop people from creating tens of their own LotR mods/scenarios and unite them all to create one mod that will rule them all
There is nothing bad about 7 thread long discussion, since the mod is planned AFTER C3C. We have plenty of time, no need to hurry. If there is one good mod, created with input of all civfanatics LotR fans, it is very likely that it will be a succeful mod that all will like.
Otherwise, we are more likely to see several LotR mods, none as good as this one can be.

 

[Doc M]

Originally posted by embryodead
While you are right that "modding teams" often fail to do anything more than putting down ideas, in this case, it has sense. You missed the first threads, and you obviously misunderstand the whole concept. As PCH said, anyone can do such mod in 1 month. Celebron started a thread called "LotR modders unite" to stop people from creating tens of their own LotR mods/scenarios and unite them all to create one mod that will rule them all
There is nothing bad about 7 thread long discussion, since the mod is planned AFTER C3C. We have plenty of time, no need to hurry. If there is one good mod, created with input of all civfanatics LotR fans, it is very likely that it will be a succeful mod that all will like.
Otherwise, we are more likely to see several LotR mods, none as good as this one can be.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[tjedge1]

I concur, preach on brother!
I have not been satisfied by any of the other Tolkien mods so far. This one will rule them all.