[BTS] Middle-earth Mod 0.4.1

[topsecret]

topsecret updated Middle-earth Mod with a new update entry:

Middle-earth Mod - Text and Balance Update

v0.2.4 - 6/21/18 (CURRENT)
- Edited civics
- Edited some of the traits
- Added and Edited Game Text
- Added option to download Middle-earth BUG
- Map edited, slightly more balanced.

Read the rest of this update entry...

 

[topsecret]

Also, if you like to play with BUG, I have successfully (I think) merged the two mods into Middle-earth BUG.

Please play test that edition and find all of the crashes.

The next release goal is Saturday, July 7th. Don't quote me on that though.

 

[Quoth the Raven]

I have been playing this mod a bit. I noticed some of the wonders do not have models. I like the huge map. A war of the ring scenario with pre-placed cities would be great. The map could maybe use a little more work. The paths of the dead should maybe be impassible, as Rohan colonizes that area below the mountains instead of Gondor. Edoras surrounded by mountains seems inaccurate. Angmar is always a little weak as they have few good new city options other than their capital. Umbar should be a civilization, as they are different from Harad.

 

[topsecret]

I will try to respond to all your concerns.

I have been playing this mod a bit. I noticed some of the wonders do not have models.

I am well aware. They take a very long time to make. If you wanna make some...

Seriously though, they are on the to-do list.

I like the huge map.

Thanks! It is exactly correct - I put a grid over a map of Middle-earth and put everything in the correct locations.

A war of the ring scenario with pre-placed cities would be great.

I am actually working on one now, for release with the Beta.

The map could maybe use a little more work.

This I know. Next update will have more changes. This one has a few.

The paths of the dead should maybe be impassible, as Rohan colonizes that area below the mountains instead of Gondor.

I guess that's a good idea... I think we will try that.

Edoras surrounded by mountains seems inaccurate.

Actually, that is exactly where it is if you look on Stephen Raw's map. But for gameplay purposes, I may move them 1N.

Angmar is always a little weak as they have few good new city options other than their capital.

Good point. I will add some new places to settle and expand.

Umbar should be a civilization, as they are different from Harad.

Umbar was different, but they were under the influence of Harad during the later Third Age. So I will add them later when I start adding more civilizations.

I appreciate all your input! I will take on sone of your points and let you add in the rest to your own version. Thanks @Quoth the Raven.

 

[topsecret]

Also, the Dwarves have a new ability where they can work Peaks. Try it out.

 

[Edmund Ironside]

Had a quick play of the mod, seems really good.
Any plans to have the Hobbits as a playable civ?

 

[topsecret]

Had a quick play of the mod, seems really good.
Any plans to have the Hobbits as a playable civ?

Most definitely. But that requires making Hobbit units, which is a good month-long project with non-stop work. So it might get done soon, it might not.

Any thoughts on gameplay? How does it feel? I want to add techs until we reach par with the regular games tech tree, allowing me to make research feel the same as BtS.

 

[topsecret]

Hey everyone, if you are a Middle-earth fan, and you would like to help me out, here's something fairly easy you can do:

Quotes for Techs

I need to obtain quotes for every technology in the game. Here's the qualifiers:

1. The quote must be from a book by J.R.R. Tolkien. I will accept direct quotes from the Silmarillion, the Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings, or the Children of Hurin. Any other books may or may not be approved.
2. The quote must be relevant to the technology you propose to put it with.
3. The quote can be changed at any time to a different one if I like the new one better.

Feel free to post away. I am working on more major things such as new techs, civs, resources, buildings, etc. I am also going to attempt to learn some C++ and add Artifacts (explained in the first post.)

 

[Edmund Ironside]

I have only done 50 turns so far as Elindil. However it played well. The music and the artwork of the units was very good.
Couple of minor things I noted. When I built a worker I was congratulated on building my first gunpowder unit, my first helicopter and something else.
One of my units was attacked by a lion, maybe a wolf (or warg) might be more appropriate? Also 'mannish' sounds kind of weird, could it not just be 'man folk' or something similar? Also are labels such as 'Hobbiton' and 'Weathertop' meant to be there on the map?

I see having UHVs is one of your possible goals. That would definitely be good. That is one of the best features of all the Rhys and Fall mods, allows for shorter but more flavorful and unique games. Dwarves for instance could have UHVs built around acquiring resources and having a lot of gold. If you get to that stage, and need a hand at all I might be able to help come up with UHVs and / or code them.
I think this mod getting more publicity when the beta is launched would be great. I looked for a LOTR's mod, but only found the defunct one. I came across this one by chance. Have you raided the old one for art work already? You could also check out the fairytale mod for artwork too perhaps?

Quote for poetry tech
“All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king.”

 

[topsecret]

I have only done 50 turns so far as Elindil. However it played well. The music and the artwork of the units was very good.

Thanks!

Couple of minor things I noted. When I built a worker I was congratulated on building my first gunpowder unit, my first helicopter and something else.

A-ha. Side effect of removing those categories from the game. I will have to figure out how to remove those pop-ups. I turned off those pop-ups in Game Options long ago...

One of my units was attacked by a lion, maybe a wolf (or warg) might be more appropriate?

Hmm. There should be some wolves running around, but I could add some wargs, I guess. But they would only look like larger wolves. I think it's a good idea.

Also 'mannish' sounds kind of weird, could it not just be 'man folk' or something similar?

Perhaps, but it is definitely a Tolkien-esque term. (See here as well.) I want to be faithful to Tolkien, whenever possible. I think it adds some Old/Middle English flavor.

Also are labels such as 'Hobbiton' and 'Weathertop' meant to be there on the map?

Temporarily, yes. It lets me remember exactly where each specific plot should be. They can be removed though. Just never got around to it.

I see having UHVs is one of your possible goals. That would definitely be good. That is one of the best features of all the Rhys and Fall mods, allows for shorter but more flavorful and unique games. Dwarves for instance could have UHVs built around acquiring resources and having a lot of gold. If you get to that stage, and need a hand at all I might be able to help come up with UHVs and / or code them.

I definitely need UHV ideas. If you have specific ones, let me know. I want to program a DLL mod that lets me make UHV's with XML instead of Python, but that will be a feat. I am gonna try though. It will be just as difficult as doing it in Python, so I might as well make it a DLL/XML mod.[/QUOTE]

I think this mod getting more publicity when the beta is launched would be great. I looked for a LOTR's mod, but only found the defunct one. I came across this one by chance. Have you raided the old one for art work already? You could also check out the fairytale mod for artwork too perhaps?

We may get more publicity, but I am not going to move to a sub-forum right now. Mods under "Project and Mod Dev." often get missed by some players. We might get a new thread in the main modpacks sub-forum though!

I have checked out lots of Fantasy mods, but I am always looking. Tell me if you notice anything I missed in particular, but I got mostly everything I could use from each of those.

Quote for poetry tech
“All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king.”

Excellent choice. Not sure how it will look on the screen, because it is so long, but I can try it out.

I need to write some of this stuff down.

 

[Maggy_domain]

few hints:
- I agree adding Umbar would be a good move, considering how it would change the gameplay: actually Harad it's too strong for it has a huge territory to expand into.
- Same considerations for Dale: no one contrasts its east expansion. I would suggest to add Iron Hills Dwarves, also to make Dwarves of Moria feel less lonely
- Why you didn't insert LotR movie soundtracks? I guess it's copyright related stuff, right? Cause I modified elves diplomacy sountracks, for instance, to seem more elvish. (lothlorinen soundtrack, Rivendell sountrack and so on, all of them taken from movies like all of the other leaders). It sounds good and well playble.
- I'll test the new Thranduil as soon as I can, for the previous one was tremendously over powered. Nice nerf! I've previously modified him to keep playing this mod: -1 food +1 gold/production on every forest terrain, to force him cutting down them. It worked, but it's clearly brutal/ugly trait.
- Have you considered to change victories even for this basic scenario? I've read you have planned to make more related scenarios about (war of the ring for instance). Actually, the only one possible it's domination/conquest. a few suggestions: add a wonder called 'Elrond Council' to replace UN for diplomatic victory. Cultural one: with tools/buildings/wonders given, one legendary city is sufficient i suppose. But I ain't no fantasy about
What do you think about?
Aaaaaand thank you so much for what you're doing

 

[topsecret]

few hints:

I appreciate input, even if I don't take it all immediately. Sometimes it takes me a bit to input ideas I even like, only because making a mod is a lot of work.

- I agree adding Umbar would be a good move, considering how it would change the gameplay: actually Harad it's too strong for it has a huge territory to expand into.

I will add Umbar later, but (as I stated above) I am going to wait for now. It would distract me from more important issues. If I add any civilization down there for a balancing effect right now, it would be Khand. They would block eastward expansion for Harad and southern expansion for the Easterlings.

- Same considerations for Dale: no one contrasts its east expansion. I would suggest to add Iron Hills Dwarves, also to make Dwarves of Moria feel less lonely

Definitely on the agenda, but I want to attempt to balance/expand the tech tree and work on my Artifacts mod before adding more civs. More civs is less important to me than improved gameplay. Then adding new civs will be easy.

- Why you didn't insert LotR movie soundtracks? I guess it's copyright related stuff, right? Cause I modified elves diplomacy sountracks, for instance, to seem more elvish. (lothlorinen soundtrack, Rivendell sountrack and so on, all of them taken from movies like all of the other leaders). It sounds good and well playble.

Someone else did the others for me. I just need to get around to it. I will eventually. If you have sound files that loop, send 'em to me and I will plug them in.

- I'll test the new Thranduil as soon as I can, for the previous one was tremendously over powered. Nice nerf! I've previously modified him to keep playing this mod: -1 food +1 gold/production on every forest terrain, to force him cutting down them. It worked, but it's clearly brutal/ugly trait.

That is pretty harsh. The nerfed version is far weaker than the original, you will find. And one day I will add Dol Guldur as a nice counter in Southern Mirkwood.

- Have you considered to change victories even for this basic scenario? I've read you have planned to make more related scenarios about (war of the ring for instance). Actually, the only one possible it's domination/conquest. a few suggestions: add a wonder called 'Elrond Council' to replace UN for diplomatic victory. Cultural one: with tools/buildings/wonders given, one legendary city is sufficient i suppose. But I ain't no fantasy about

I will change the cultural one once I get used to what works when I add more buildings. Suggestion noted. I have more in the works.

I will not be doing the Diplomatic Victory, because I am going to be adding Historical Victories for each Civilization. Diplo victories make me .

What do you think about?
Aaaaaand thank you so much for what you're doing

Thanks for all the advice. I know it always sounds like I don't instantly take advice, but I am trying to be careful, because I have made two or three mods before this and I know the importance of doing things in the order I I feel motivated to do so.

You're welcome. Don't stop giving me advice. I still go back and read the thread through on occasion - your pleas for Dwarves and Umbar will be fulfilled one day, I hope.

 

[Edmund Ironside]

Advanced forging

“He learned all their secrets, and betrayed them, and forged secretly
in the Mountain of Fire the One Ring to be their master.”


Archery

“For an instant the wizard looked out.
Arrows whined and whistled down the corridor as he sprang back.”


Bronze Working

“When he came out he was bearing in his arms a great load of treasure: things of gold, silver, copper, and bronze.”


Farming

“It was a fine night. The cows were in the fields, and Farmer Giles's dog had got out and gone for a walk on his own account.”


Healing

“It is fortunate that I could find it, for it is a healing plant that the Men of the West brought to Middle-earth.”

 

[topsecret]

Spoilers for something new in the next update... look carefully.

 

[Maggy_domain]

There's another issue i forgot to mention: AI is not programmed to use new catapults/archers mechanics. Computer is not aware how to use them, thus making AI civs far weak in combats than human players. They don't build catapults for instance, and they don't bombard city defensens but only with battering rams. Honestly I don't know how to modify those mechanics, but there are plenty mods that already have this bombing mechanic setted (PAE for instance). I'll try to aid you as possible as I can. Wonders for instance

 

[devolution]

@topsecret
I commend you for putting together this mod! Considering the richness of lore it is based on, I think a mod like this has a lot of potential!

Now let's get down to business:

I ran the the most recent release v0.2.4 with a debug DLL (stock 3.19 baseline, provided by Leoreth)

Triggered during loading the mod

Assert Failed
File: .\.\CvGlobals.cpp
Line: 3283
Expression: strcmp(szType, "NONE")==0 || strcmp(szType, "")==0
Message: type FLAVOR_ECONOMY not found
----------------------------------------------------------


These happened during the creation of a random map:

Assert Failed
File: .\.\CvGlobals.cpp
Line: 3493
Expression: strcmp(szType, "NONE")==0 || strcmp(szType, "")==0
Message: info type UNIT_PROPHET not found, Current XML file is: xml\GameInfo/CIV4EspionageMissionInfo.xml
----------------------------------------------------------
Assert Failed
File: .\.\CvGlobals.cpp
Line: 2428
Expression: e > -1
Message:
----------------------------------------------------------

The first two are harmless , but the second one may indicate something more serious. I also ran autoplay for 10 turns, which unfortunately resulted in even more asserts. I propose that we use a debug DLL with autoplay 2.0 to sanity check the AI and game logic.

The previous poster is completely correct regarding the ranged combat, it simply won't work correctly. At a minimum you (we, someone, etc...) would have to merge in Dale's Combat Mod which features basic ranged combat AI. There are some patches and improvements to DCM scattered around, primarily in the RevolutionDCM mod and some of its submods. Note that even with these the AI performance is sub-par.

Consequently, I must highly recommend that you switch to K-Mod for several reasons:

- The AI actually knows how to achieve victory conditions. We could extend this to have the AI understand per-faction victory goals.
- This mod will feature heavy combat and this is what K-Mod excels at
- K-mod has dozens and dozens of bugfixes relative to base BTS (All the known issues and lots of AI issues that other mods completely lack)
- Far better economy management.
- Includes other important mods like Advanced combat odds, Autoplay 2.0, Lead from behind etc.

 

[Edmund Ironside]

Advanced Sailing
“And thence at times the Firstborn still
would come sailing to Numenor in oarless boats, as white
birds flying from the sunset.”

Armor
“And all the arrows of all the hunters in the world would be in vain,'
said Gimli, gazing at the mail in wonder. 'It is a mithril-coat. Mithril! I
have never seen or heard tell of one so fair.”

Cavalry Tactics
“Riddermark of Rohan the Rohirrim, the Horse-lords, dwell, and there are no
horses like those that are bred in that great vale between the Misty
Mountains and the White.”

Records
“By the end of the first century of the Fourth Age
there were already to be found in the Shire several libraries that contained
many historical books and records.”

Music
“It was a beautiful golden harp, and when Thorin struck it the music began all at
once, so sudden and sweet that Bilbo forgot everything else, and was swept away into
dark lands under strange moons, far over The Water and very far from his hobbit-hole
under The Hill. “

 

[topsecret]

There's another issue i forgot to mention: AI is not programmed to use new catapults/archers mechanics. Computer is not aware how to use them, thus making AI civs far weak in combats than human players. They don't build catapults for instance, and they don't bombard city defensens but only with battering rams. Honestly I don't know how to modify those mechanics, but there are plenty mods that already have this bombing mechanic setted (PAE for instance). I'll try to aid you as possible as I can. Wonders for instance

The catapults issue can be fixed easily.

I don't know what you mean about the ranged combat though... the AI attacks me with ranged attacks all the time.

@topsecret
I commend you for putting together this mod! Considering the richness of lore it is based on, I think a mod like this has a lot of potential!

Now let's get down to business:

I ran the the most recent release v0.2.4 with a debug DLL (stock 3.19 baseline, provided by Leoreth)

Triggered during loading the mod

Assert Failed
File: .\.\CvGlobals.cpp
Line: 3283
Expression: strcmp(szType, "NONE")==0 || strcmp(szType, "")==0
Message: type FLAVOR_ECONOMY not found
----------------------------------------------------------


These happened during the creation of a random map:

Assert Failed
File: .\.\CvGlobals.cpp
Line: 3493
Expression: strcmp(szType, "NONE")==0 || strcmp(szType, "")==0
Message: info type UNIT_PROPHET not found, Current XML file is: xml\GameInfo/CIV4EspionageMissionInfo.xml
----------------------------------------------------------
Assert Failed
File: .\.\CvGlobals.cpp
Line: 2428
Expression: e > -1
Message:
----------------------------------------------------------

The first two are harmless , but the second one may indicate something more serious. I also ran autoplay for 10 turns, which unfortunately resulted in even more asserts. I propose that we use a debug DLL with autoplay 2.0 to sanity check the AI and game logic.

I don't know too much about the DLL, so you'll have to explain some of these to me. I understand where the second error comes from though, most likely. They are probably related to many of the things I removed.

The previous poster is completely correct regarding the ranged combat, it simply won't work correctly. At a minimum you (we, someone, etc...) would have to merge in Dale's Combat Mod which features basic ranged combat AI. There are some patches and improvements to DCM scattered around, primarily in the RevolutionDCM mod and some of its submods. Note that even with these the AI performance is sub-par.

Consequently, I must highly recommend that you switch to K-Mod for several reasons:

- The AI actually knows how to achieve victory conditions. We could extend this to have the AI understand per-faction victory goals.
- This mod will feature heavy combat and this is what K-Mod excels at
- K-mod has dozens and dozens of bugfixes relative to base BTS (All the known issues and lots of AI issues that other mods completely lack)
- Far better economy management.
- Includes other important mods like Advanced combat odds, Autoplay 2.0, Lead from behind etc.

For some reason, the AI does ranged attacks on me all the time. Does the AI not attack you all?

While I appreciate the recommendation, I have never play K-Mod. I would gladly welcome the bugfixes and AI improvements, but I don't know what Lead from Behind, etc. does. I need to know details, so you will have to wait for me to download and play K-Mod before I feel it is right.

Also, I am using features from a custom DLL, which means I will have to merge them, and my DLL experience is currently highly limited. So I may move the mod in this direction in the future, but not immediately until I determine if I like using the K-Mod. So I am not saying "no" - I am saying, "let me think about it."

You are more than welcome to do it while I decide, but if I decide to do it in the future, I probably will need some help. So it's not going to be an instant decision, but I will definitely take it on board.

 

[topsecret]

I also have some exciting news:

On July 1st, this thread will be moving to the Modpacks sub-forum for more publicity. Head there to continue receiving updates if you manually check-in.

I believe you will remain subscribed and get alerts whenever replies are posted, but I wanted everyone to know.

 

[Edmund Ironside]

Some more quotes from Tolkien here for technologies. As tasks go, looking through his writings isn't too much of a chore!

Siege Warfare
"Great engines crawled across the field; and in the midst was a huge ram, great as a forest-tree a hundred feet in length, swinging on mighty chains. Long had it been forging in the dark smithies of Mordor, and its hideous head, founded of black steel, was shaped in the likeness of a ravening wolf; on it spells of ruin lay. Grond they named it, in memory of the Hammer of the Underworld of old. Great beasts drew it, orcs surrounded it, and behind walked mountain-trolls to wield it."


Strongholds
“As he grew in malice,
and sent forth from himself the evil that he conceived in lies and creatures of wickedness,
his power passed into them and was dispersed, and he himself became ever more earth-
bound, unwilling to issue from his dark strongholds.'”


The Court
“The capital of that realm, the Middle Kingdom of the island in those happy days, was some twenty leagues distant from Hams and they paid little heed at court, as a rule, to the doings of rustics in the provinces.”


Ballistics
“He gathered the huge pine-cones from the branches of the tree. Then he set one
alight with bright blue fire, and threw it
whizzing down among the circle of the wolves.”

Caravan
“The talk was all of the trade that came and went on the waterways and the growth of the traffic on the river, as the roads out of the East
towards Mirkwood vanished or fell into disuse”