[BTS] Middle-earth Mod 0.4.1

[topsecret]

Re- the K-Mod idea:

I've looked up "Lead from Behind", and it seems OK. I just really need to play it a while and check out the K-Mod. We'll see.

 

[Maggy_domain]

You guys that are certaintly more skilled about modding, are you aware if it is possible to interact with peaks? I mean: I have interesting ideas about some wonders artwork (i.e. Chamber of Mazarbul, Barad Dur, Endless Stair) adding a requisite "Must be built near a peak". For instance, i could make a Endless Stair model looks like the final tower appearing at the end of the stairs, like seen in 2^ Peter Jackson movie (the scene where Gandalf reached the top while fighting the Balrog). Otherwise, i shall think up some other ways to represent them.
Also, I beg you @topsecret to make a Minas Morgul citadel wonder for I've always dreamt to make a model of

You definitely have my axe.

 

[topsecret]

You guys that are certaintly more skilled about modding, are you aware if it is possible to interact with peaks? I mean: I have interesting ideas about some wonders artwork (i.e. Chamber of Mazarbul, Barad Dur, Endless Stair) adding a requisite "Must be built near a peak". For instance, i could make a Endless Stair model looks like the final tower appearing at the end of the stairs, like seen in 2^ Peter Jackson movie (the scene where Gandalf reached the top while fighting the Balrog). Otherwise, i shall think up some other ways to represent them.
Also, I beg you @topsecret to make a Minas Morgul citadel wonder for I've always dreamt to make a model of

You definitely have my axe.

I am not sure about peaks, but I know Aqueducts do some special stuff. I can ask around I guess.

 

[Edmund Ironside]

Chivalry

To Men Morgoth feigned pity, if any would hearken to

his messages, saying that their woes came only of their

servitude to the rebel Noldor, but at the hands of the rightful

Lord of Middle-earth they would get honour and a just

reward of valour, if they would leave rebellion.


Commerce

The Elvenking was very powerful in those parts and the Master wished for no enmity

with him, nor did he think much of old songs, giving his mind to trade and tolls, to cargoes and gold, to which habit he owed his position.


Construction

The poorest went on living

in burrows of the most primitive kind, mere holes indeed, with only one

window or none; while the well-to-do still constructed more luxurious

versions of the simple diggings of old.


Copper working

In the darkness of Arda already the Dwarves wrought great

works, for even from the first days of their Fathers they had

marvellous skill with metals and with stone; but in that

ancient time iron and copper they loved to work, rather than

silver or gold.


Delving

Just let any one say I chose the wrong man or the wrong house, and you can stop at thirteen and have all the bad luck you

like, or go back to digging coal.”

 

[topsecret]

I've made several edits to the map, including:
- Being able to sail up part of the Anduin River.
- All Flood Plains now have desert underneath them
- "Signs" removed
- Several more resources allow better settling locations

I also created a "Heavy Forested Version" of the map that starts Civilizations in random locations, and I will be making an "alternate starts" scenario.

 

[<Nexus>]

I am not sure about peaks, but I know Aqueducts do some special stuff. I can ask around I guess.

AND2 has such features. Maybe you could try to merge those from AND2's dll.

 

[<Nexus>]

I noticed that Religions and and Corporations are missing (not a surprise though).
Let me offer my idea to fill those holes:

Guilds could be used for Corporations.
In VIP there is a whole set of guilds. Those are also merged into AND2 and Vokarya has improved the guild icons (easier to see which one is which).
You could simply copy-paste the stuff from those mods or come up with some original ideas but I don't remember LotR ever mentioning any specific guilds.

Values could be a good concept to replace Religions but it's a little more tricky since values should not be founded anywhere and should have no holy city. Maybe they should be spread by great people (one type of great person could spread more than one type). Instead of Temples/Monasteries/Cathedrals, Values should unlock other kind of buildings. Missionaries shouldn't play such a big role as in BTS. Values should spread more naturally by buildings by using the ReligionChanges tag. One could only affect their spread only by sacrificing great people or running the specific civic.

Some value ideas:

Knowledge:
spread by:
Great Scientist
buildings:
Library (I don't think they are so common in Middle-Earth to be just a regular building)
University: requires 3 Libraries
missionary:
Scholar

Prosperity:
spread by:
Great Merchant
buildings:
Emporium: +1TradeRoutes
Bank: requires 3 Emporiums
missionary:
Monger - can also conduct Trade Mission (lower value than of Great Merchant)

Beauty:
spread by:
Great Artist
buildings:
Fountain(?)
?
missionary:
Bard(?) : can also Culture Bomb in a city (lower value than of Great Artist)

Valor:
spread by:
Great General
buildings:
Heroic Monument: +Xp
Heroes' Chamber: requires 3 Heroic Monuments, gives a free promotion
missionary:
Galant(?)

Cunningness:
spread by:
Great Spy
buildings:
Bandit Hive: bonus
Thieves guild: requires 3 Bandit Hives, gives a free promotion for espionage units
missionary:
Infiltrator: could do some spy stuff too, that other espionage units cannot

Diligence:
spread by:
Great Engineer
buildings:
Trade Mill Crane: bonus to building constuction
?
missionary:
Architect: can also Hurry Production (lower value than of Great Engineer)

(etc.)


Some ideas for Value civics category:

Ignorance:
Your people may value whatever they want, you don't care.
-10%
No State Value (you may want a better phrase for that)

Guidance:
You show the example for your people what value is the most important.
Allows State Value

Propaganda:
You strictly tell your people what value is the most important.
Allows State Value
Can train Teacher (Missionary) units of state religion.
No Non-State Value spread

(etc.)

These are just some quick ideas. I hope you can make some use of them

 

[topsecret]

Some of Tolkien's other writings mention specific guilds. So I already have a list of seven written down in my notebook.

I like your values ideas a lot. I will likely use those categories! I am not sure about how to handle the diplomacy side though. I don't want most of those to cause diplo relations to suffer.

 

[Maggy_domain]

AND2 has such features. Maybe you could try to merge those from AND2's dll.

thank you for your advice, but dll is definitely out of my competences. I'll check AND anyway

 

[topsecret]

thank you for your advice, but dll is definitely out of my competences. I'll check AND anyway

If you can locate an in-game example, I can try my hand at extracting it.

I literally just started with DLL, but I think I have succeeded in making a new game option that works.

 

[Edmund Ironside]

Diplomacy
"Yet all the more sure shall they be as allies against Morgoth,
with whom it is not now to be thought that they shall ever
make treaty.'"

Domestication
"They heard of the Great Barrows, and the green mounds, and the
stone-rings upon the hills and in the hollows among the hills. Sheep were
bleating in flocks. Green walls and white walls rose."


On the subject of UHVs from a while back. I am continuing a mod that someone else started, where the UHVs are currently non functional. We will have to see who manages to get functional UHVs first!

In regards to MODS, how easy is it to change the image that appears when you load a MOD (I notice you have changed it in your LOTR MOD)?

Wasn't this Mod meant to have moved to the Modpack subforum?

 

[topsecret]

Diplomacy
"Yet all the more sure shall they be as allies against Morgoth,
with whom it is not now to be thought that they shall ever
make treaty.'"

Domestication
"They heard of the Great Barrows, and the green mounds, and the
stone-rings upon the hills and in the hollows among the hills. Sheep were
bleating in flocks. Green walls and white walls rose."

On the subject of UHVs from a while back. I am continuing a mod that someone else started, where the UHVs are currently non functional. We will have to see who manages to get functional UHVs first!

If I do, you will be able to use them, because I am determined to code them in C++ (DLL) and make them easily created via XML!

In regards to MODS, how easy is it to change the image that appears when you load a MOD (I notice you have changed it in your LOTR MOD)?

Very easy, as long as you have the right files. You need to edit the Civ4MainMenus file, the ArtDefines_Interface file, and the art files. Check out the ones in base BtS to figure out how they did it.

Wasn't this Mod meant to have moved to the Modpack subforum?

Yep! But the moderator forgot, I think. I sent him a message, and if I don't hear back by Wednesday, I'll send him another.

 

[topsecret]

I've added a "No Settlers" Game Option mod component to the database. We can now make scenarios that prevent new cities from being created.

 

[Autumn Leaf]

I like your solution to the problem of building civilisations in certain terrains by giving the Leader a Trait that makes their Civ more productive on those terrains. You could tweak the Dwarfs ability to get 2 Food and 2 Hammers from Peaks (since Peaks provide 0 Food by default, the current 1 Food is inadequate, and the current 3 Hammers is excessive) [edit:deleted Orcs] and the Elves 1 additional Food and 1 Commerce from Forests (I dislike the current Forester trait - 1 additonal Hammer from Forests is inadequate).

There is another way to achieve these effects BTW, which is to tweak CivGameCore.DLL to manage it for you. Rhye managed the Inca UP (Food and Hammers from Peaks) in CvPlot.cpp by passing in a TeamType parameter (eTeam) for the civilization and if eTeam equalled the const for Incas they got the bonus. You could do something similar - although, as mentioned, I think your Leadership solution is fine (Leaders were somewhat weakened in RFC).

int CvPlot::calculateNatureYield(YieldTypes eYield, TeamTypes eTeam, bool bIgnoreFeature) const
{
BonusTypes eBonus;
int iYield;

//Rhye - start UP
if (isImpassable())
{
if (eTeam == INCA)
return 0 + GC.getYieldInfo(eYield).getLakeChange() + GC.getYieldInfo(eYield).getLakeChange() + GC.getYieldInfo(eYield).getHillsChange() + GC.getYieldInfo(eYield).getLakeChange();
else
return 0;
}
//Rhye - end UP
[snip]

Also - and I'm just throwing this out as a thought for future direction - this mod is a prime candidate for the "Rhye's and Fall" treatment, particularly for a scenario set in the 2nd Age. You'd start out with a few scattered Elf, Dwarf, Man and Orc realms then have various others spawn at their appropriate times. Sauron would spawn in Mordor about 500 years in. (The problem with setting it in the 3rd Age would be that Sauron would spawn much, much later and in Dol Guldur, only moving to Mordor near the end. Although that could be one of his Unique Historical Victory conditions if he is the human player, it is hard to script the AI to do things like that - although RFC Dawn of Civilization manages to get the Phoenicians to found Carthage so it's not impossible. The 2nd Age is much more straightforward and the Elves and Dwarves are more active during that time.) The Numenoreans would start on Numenor - which can be fitted into currently empty Ocean (roughly west of Lond Daer to northwest of Andrast) - and be scripted to found Lond Daer and other Numenorean cities at appropriate dates. By arranging for certain civs to collapse around specific dates and filling the vacant slot with a new one you can have more than 18 distinct civs in the game without going full Realism Invictus and increasing the number of simultaneous civs.

Spoiler Numenor :

 

[topsecret]

I like your solution to the problem of building civilisations in certain terrains by giving the Leader a Trait that makes their Civ more productive on those terrains. You could tweak the Dwarfs ability to get 2 Food and 2 Hammers from Peaks (since Peaks provide 0 Food by default, the current 1 Food is inadequate, and the current 3 Hammers is excessive) [edit:deleted Orcs] and the Elves 1 additional Food and 1 Commerce from Forests (I dislike the current Forester trait - 1 additonal Hammer from Forests is inadequate).

There is another way to achieve these effects BTW, which is to tweak CivGameCore.DLL to manage it for you. Rhye managed the Inca UP (Food and Hammers from Peaks) in CvPlot.cpp by passing in a TeamType parameter (eTeam) for the civilization and if eTeam equalled the const for Incas they got the bonus. You could do something similar - although, as mentioned, I think your Leadership solution is fine (Leaders were somewhat weakened in RFC).

int CvPlot::calculateNatureYield(YieldTypes eYield, TeamTypes eTeam, bool bIgnoreFeature) const
{
BonusTypes eBonus;
int iYield;

//Rhye - start UP
if (isImpassable())
{
if (eTeam == INCA)
return 0 + GC.getYieldInfo(eYield).getLakeChange() + GC.getYieldInfo(eYield).getLakeChange() + GC.getYieldInfo(eYield).getHillsChange() + GC.getYieldInfo(eYield).getLakeChange();
else
return 0;
}
//Rhye - end UP

I like doing special traits for leaders because I want multiple leaders. I... don't know about Thranduil's trait. He was far too overpowered with and or and in forest. A long time ago, he had that exact food bonus, iirc. Food would be extremely powerful. I will have to figure out something, but know that commerce or food bonuses make him overpowered, especially early game. I have played the mod enough to know that.

Also - and I'm just throwing this out as a thought for future direction - this mod is a prime candidate for the "Rhye's and Fall" treatment, particularly for a scenario set in the 2nd Age. You'd start out with a few scattered Elf, Dwarf, Man and Orc realms then have various others spawn at their appropriate times. Sauron would spawn in Mordor about 500 years in. (The problem with setting it in the 3rd Age would be that Sauron would spawn much, much later and in Dol Guldur, only moving to Mordor near the end. Although that could be one of his Unique Historical Victory conditions if he is the human player, it is hard to script the AI to do things like that - although RFC Dawn of Civilization manages to get the Phoenicians to found Carthage so it's not impossible. The 2nd Age is much more straightforward and the Elves and Dwarves are more active during that time.) The Numenoreans would start on Numenor - which can be fitted into currently empty Ocean (roughly west of Lond Daer to northwest of Andrast) - and be scripted to found Lond Daer and other Numenorean cities at appropriate dates. By arranging for certain civs to collapse around specific dates and filling the vacant slot with a new one you can have more than 18 distinct civs in the game without going full Realism Invictus and increasing the number of simultaneous civs.

Spoiler Numenor :

View attachment 499122

I am interested in a Rhye's like-scenario - but I still want the mod to be able to be played on random maps, and I want it to be like Civ4 BtS, but in Middle-earth. So we will have both eventually.

Also, when we add Numenor, I will just add more ocean so that it feels like a journey back and forth.

I also just found out when editing my map that our current civ count is already increased with my DLL. We can support more civs already.

 

[topsecret]

Also, I beg you @topsecret to make a Minas Morgul citadel wonder for I've always dreamt to make a model of .

Just noticed this. I will do my best, but no promises on when. I always have to do what I have motivation and time to do.

 

[Autumn Leaf]

I am not sure about how to handle the diplomacy side though. I don't want most of those to cause diplo relations to suffer.

Actually you need a good mechanism to make e.g. the Elves hate Mordor and vice-versa. Currently everyone is still too nicey-nicey. The Easterlings and Haradrim should be likely to buddy up to Mordor and should dislike/distrust Gondor. Cirdan and Sauron should be oil and water. Religion provides a good means to achieve this in most mods, so a mix of "good" and "evil" Values would give the mod some much-needed grist. To support this function the list of Values will need considerable rework.

Also, it's not entirely true that there are no religions in Middle Earth, more that Tolkien baked his own Catholic beliefs into his pre-Christian creation.

In Numenor, Sauron pushed Morgoth-worship and built a gigantic temple to it. No doubt he brought that handy idea back to Middle Earth to spread to his servants and those he wanted to recruit to his service. At its simplest you could have all evil realms worship Morgoth and have all Elvish realms revere the Valar, and set these two beliefs to be extremely averse to one another. You could then add other beliefs to nuance it. For example, the Numenoreans would have a general reverence for the West, with a diminished animosity to those who revere the Valar but a strong aversion to Morgoth Worshippers. Dwarves would revere Durin (all of those we meet in LotR are Durin's folk so although the other 6 kindreds may prefer their own Father, this is not an issue here) and would be moderately averse to all others, but more to evil due to their bad experiences with Orcs. Some Men even worshipped Sauron, so you can nuance evil beliefs with Sauron Worshippers. Better names could be devised; I've used descriptive names here for clarity.

As a sample, we could have (with, in each case, +3 to anyone who shares their own belief):

Valar Reverers (Elves): -1 to West Reverers, -1 to Durin's Folk, -4 to Morgoth/Sauron Worshippers
West Reverers (Numenoreans/Arnor/Gondor): -1 to Valar Reverers, -1 to Durin's Folk, -3 to Morgoth Worshippers, -4 to Sauron Worshippers
Durin's Folk (Dwarves): -1 to Valar/West Reverers, -4 to Morgoth/Sauron worshippers
Morgoth Worshippers (Mordor/Haradrim): -1 to Sauron Worshippers, -3 to West Reverers/Durin's Folk, -4 to Valar Reverers
Sauron Worshippers (Easterlings): -1 to Moroth Worshippers, -3 to Valar Reverers, -4 to West Reverers/Durin's Folk

Saruman might also come up with some religious notion (Isdengard/Dunlendngs); he stole a lot of his ideas from Sauron. You could also add a generic worship similar to, say, Druidism, for Dale and other generally unaligned realms (Dale specifically because of their co-operation with the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain). That gives us 7 distinct Value systems.

Note these are not perfectly symmetrical - Dwarves can hate Morgoth Worshippers more Morgoth Sauron Worshippers hate Durin's Folk. This is reflective of their past history with Sauron. I think some civs (e.g. Spain in vanilla BtS and most mods) take their religion more seriously than others, so this may also be a way to tweak the effect.

Some mods assign Religions to specific regions (e.g. if you are the first to discover the tech that enables Hinduism but don't have a city in India, you don't found Hinduism). You could look at a similar mechanism to make civs based in certain areas more likely to go for a Value innate to that area. Or you could just assign a specific Value to each civ from the start.

Edited to add: There would indeed be no Holy Cities, but Valar/West Reverers could build Holy Places and Sauron/Morgoth Worshippers could build Temples; Dwarves would build Tombs. There would be no Monasteries as such but their research boost could be added to some other new building. Cathedrals would be Great versions of Holy Places and Temples. Priests are a problem but could be renamed and reoriented a bit as Seers and Great Seers with the same Coins + Hammer effect as Priests.

 

[Autumn Leaf]

[QUOTE="topsecret, post: 15165474, member: 177536"
I am interested in a Rhye's like-scenario - but I still want the mod to be able to be played on random maps, and I want it to be like Civ4 BtS, but in Middle-earth. So we will have both eventually.

Also, when we add Numenor, I will just add more ocean so that it feels like a journey back and forth.

I also just found out when editing my map that our current civ count is already increased with my DLL. We can support more civs already. [/QUOTE]

If you generate a random map you're not in Kansas any more. You really only need two maps anyway - Beleriand for the First Age and the current one for the 2nd/3rd Age. (If someone wanted to add maps to do e.g. Gondor V. Mordor or Arnor V. Angmar scenarios those might be additional.) Also, although Ocean tiles are comparatively easy on memory, if you add enough of them to make the distances accurate you'll end up with a huge expanse of ocean that the AI may never choose to cross (seasickness anyone? ), cities founded in ME by the Numenoreans will have a huge distance penalty, and some people won't be able to load the mod.

Edited to add: https://middle-earth.xenite.org/religions-middle-earth/

 

[topsecret]

Religions
I see what you are saying, and I know about the basic duality of religion in Arda. I am, however, going to use a different method for dividing the nations.

Why?
By scripting the religions, I force the situation. Religion becomes not a choice for the player to use but a system forced without option. Either I create multiple religions that cause division between good nations, or I create two religions that automatically pits each against the other.

Instead, I want this mod to be like Civ4: the player can craft his nation. Religions in Civ4 currently divide from all other nations. That could be modded, but I prefer to create a reputation/good-evil scale. (Think Sengoku or FFH)

I guess what I am trying to say is that I am creating a Middle-earth Civ4, not a Middle-earth RFC. I don't want to script everything unless the player wants to go that route. Anyone can build the Black Gate, just like the Pyramids. The Elves could attack each other, but suffer penalty from other "good" civs.

Now, as I said, I do want a RFC style scenario, but I also want a free form way to play through Middle-earth. I want both.

Please do not stop giving suggestions. It's not that I don't want anyone else's ideas, it is just that I have a very specific purpose for the mod and I want to stick to it.

Hopefully no offense is taken, because I certainly mean none. I appreciate all of your feedback. I must stick to my original purpose.

If you do think certain things should be different about religions, make a modmod. That would be awesome.

 

[topsecret]

If you generate a random map you're not in Kansas any more.

That's my goal - to have the following:
1. Random maps, to play through as Civ4 plays through history on random maps
2. Fixed maps, in the style of (1)
3. Fixed maps with predetermined events and missions that play in similar fashion to what you are describing.

You really only need two maps anyway - Beleriand for the First Age and the current one for the 2nd/3rd Age. (If someone wanted to add maps to do e.g. Gondor V. Mordor or Arnor V. Angmar scenarios those might be additional.)

Yep, I plan to add Beleriand eventually.

Also, although Ocean tiles are comparatively easy on memory, if you add enough of them to make the distances accurate you'll end up with a huge expanse of ocean that the AI may never choose to cross (seasickness anyone? ), cities founded in ME by the Numenoreans will have a huge distance penalty, and some people won't be able to load the mod.

Edited to add: https://middle-earth.xenite.org/religions-middle-earth/

Multiple maps mean the mod should run on any computer. I have thought about giving Numenor reduced distance penalty to increase their ability to expand and explore, and we can code the AI to do what it needs to do.