Mighty Suryavarman II
- Thread starter vranasm
- Start date
My point was not really about how many axes we might need, but whether a rush would really delay a philo bulb by that much. If it weren't for that I think this looks like a textbook situation where to try it. Closeby and easily accessible enemy capital on flat land with so-so land ourselves and a lot of wood to chop. Then again, I'm not much of a rusher myself at all, so my feeling might be off about how soon it pays back. Then again, I'd be very happy to just take Sal's cap and call it a day (until later measures ofc, but then with our UU available 
). Anyway, as said, if you all think that being peaceful is better, I won't complain.
). Anyway, as said, if you all think that being peaceful is better, I won't complain.
Gold won't make such a big difference. By the time we have Sal's capital it has less effect on an economy and we already have gold for the +1 happy (would get ivory +1 though).
There isn't that big of a difference between when we would have Mecca up and running and when we will have the GL, and having GL gives more per turn than a gold mine. And we will capture Mecca if not in the BCs then very early ADs even if we postpone until after the GL.
I won't deny that I am a coward warmonger though. I never attack unless I feel completely confident that nothing will go wrong.
And how many axes are required effects how soon one gets philo. They cost maintenance and it would mean working hammers over commerce.
RE: 1st GS. Academy in current capital for me. With the GL we will get GS #2 in time for philo bulb. It won't be a super-city later, but it will have the GL scientists, tile scientists, some natural commerce and a palace in the early to midgame -- it will bring in good science.
There isn't that big of a difference between when we would have Mecca up and running and when we will have the GL, and having GL gives more per turn than a gold mine. And we will capture Mecca if not in the BCs then very early ADs even if we postpone until after the GL.
I won't deny that I am a coward warmonger though. I never attack unless I feel completely confident that nothing will go wrong.
And how many axes are required effects how soon one gets philo. They cost maintenance and it would mean working hammers over commerce.
RE: 1st GS. Academy in current capital for me. With the GL we will get GS #2 in time for philo bulb. It won't be a super-city later, but it will have the GL scientists, tile scientists, some natural commerce and a palace in the early to midgame -- it will bring in good science.
vranasm
Deity
my view is split.
I won't deny that having Mecca and call it a day hears very good here. I think the maintenance hit isn't serious and we will have very nice city with very nice resources and will just promote our way this game.
I am affraid we won't produce enough axes to get the capital easily, since Sal is pro, my experience fighting pro archers is very bad (like 4-5 axes per archer defending!), axes can't attack T1 of war so there can be some reinforcements, so even if he has 3 archers standing, he whips fully and reinforce and voila... 4 defending archers - where we would get 16 axes?
We would have to build at least 1 rax too! because unpromoted axes would be even worse bloodbath.
Dunno... I am 50:50 on it, we should probably decide before Rusten plays the TS.
edit:
there is one nice article in strategy articles from VoU about how many archers you need against a city with some calculations.
Mecca is holy city I think, so there will be high culture defense value at the time we get there too.
I won't deny that having Mecca and call it a day hears very good here. I think the maintenance hit isn't serious and we will have very nice city with very nice resources and will just promote our way this game.
I am affraid we won't produce enough axes to get the capital easily, since Sal is pro, my experience fighting pro archers is very bad (like 4-5 axes per archer defending!), axes can't attack T1 of war so there can be some reinforcements, so even if he has 3 archers standing, he whips fully and reinforce and voila... 4 defending archers - where we would get 16 axes?
We would have to build at least 1 rax too! because unpromoted axes would be even worse bloodbath.
Dunno... I am 50:50 on it, we should probably decide before Rusten plays the TS.
edit:
there is one nice article in strategy articles from VoU about how many archers you need against a city with some calculations.
Mecca is holy city I think, so there will be high culture defense value at the time we get there too.
vranasm
Deity
maybe we should keep the ball rolling?
Don't want to let this game die out...
Don't want to let this game die out...
Had a lot of lucky MM this turnet. Everything fit like a glove -- it was as if I had carefully calculated everything days in advance. Only luck of course. 
Move copper warrior towards barb archer (across river+forest).
IBT: Success -- warrior beats archer. Gold warrior also beats barb warrior the turn after. No pillaging.
T58: Decide to put warrior hammers into spear rather than finishing warrior before hooking up copper. Spears are good enough against barbs and it saves some turns to protect that southern city. Finish road and warrior turns into spear IBT.
Sent a 2nd worker towards AW and chop a forest into granary and the chop hammers are exactly enough to finish it.
The two workers then proceed to finish the 1st cottage as the city grows to size 2.
Found Germany (hard to see borders, but to the west of the scout) and some more ivory. I prefer the one within Sal's borders.
T63: Another barb archer towards copper city.
Messes up my MM a bit. I was going to grow to size 4 and 2-pop whip, but I was forced to 1-pop whip the axe in case archer went to pillage copper. Turns out it was the right call -- archer went for copper before city.
T67: 1 turn left for writing leaving us with 0 gold in treasury and no overflow beakers. I guess it's just that kind of day.
T68: Present.
Road towards Korea will finish next turn with help from the other worker. Open borders have been signed and we will get trade routes.
3 workers near AW. I suggest 2 of them go south with the settler. Improve cow and then make road towards our trade network.
Settler finished (unmoved in capital). Let's go settle the cow+dye. Where the scout is sitting looks good (1se of cow).
We need to run scientist at all times in 2 cities rather than 1 here (academy and philo bulb). Capital+copper city looks good. In a way it's already been decided as there are no workers nearby despite no hammers invested to library.
Move copper warrior towards barb archer (across river+forest).
IBT: Success -- warrior beats archer. Gold warrior also beats barb warrior the turn after. No pillaging.
T58: Decide to put warrior hammers into spear rather than finishing warrior before hooking up copper. Spears are good enough against barbs and it saves some turns to protect that southern city. Finish road and warrior turns into spear IBT.
Spoiler :
Sent a 2nd worker towards AW and chop a forest into granary and the chop hammers are exactly enough to finish it.
The two workers then proceed to finish the 1st cottage as the city grows to size 2.
Found Germany (hard to see borders, but to the west of the scout) and some more ivory. I prefer the one within Sal's borders.
Spoiler :
T63: Another barb archer towards copper city.
Spoiler :
Messes up my MM a bit. I was going to grow to size 4 and 2-pop whip, but I was forced to 1-pop whip the axe in case archer went to pillage copper. Turns out it was the right call -- archer went for copper before city.
T67: 1 turn left for writing leaving us with 0 gold in treasury and no overflow beakers. I guess it's just that kind of day.
T68: Present.
Spoiler :
Road towards Korea will finish next turn with help from the other worker. Open borders have been signed and we will get trade routes.
3 workers near AW. I suggest 2 of them go south with the settler. Improve cow and then make road towards our trade network.
Settler finished (unmoved in capital). Let's go settle the cow+dye. Where the scout is sitting looks good (1se of cow).
We need to run scientist at all times in 2 cities rather than 1 here (academy and philo bulb). Capital+copper city looks good. In a way it's already been decided as there are no workers nearby despite no hammers invested to library.
vranasm
Deity
Great TS Rusten, thank you. To me it seems like you did right call on every decision you took.
Maybe except the settler a little bit because I thought we will go with 4 city breakout to get lesser maintenance for cats warfare (i will have to check ingame the spot you're talking about).
Sal imo makes more and more moves to motivate us to kill him soon ;-). That city by oasis is pure insult! He has to die (he has the ivory anyway
).
I think it is right call to work 2 cities for scientists, should bring us some needed beakers. We should maybe rethink the aesth a bit though.
It's not on path towards construction.
I think we have to decide now if we go war route or not.
We could of course wait up to cannons and made cannons+muskets+WE's warfare....
I am not sure what would be best. I see it as we need to use 1-move warfare instead of my beloved 2-moves warfare (we should aim for siege+something since WE's are 1-move), that would surely promote constr "soon".
Otoh there is the strict limit with Tao and AW wonder which could be endangered if we go war.
It is claimed on S&T that 6 cities should suffice for ren. breakout. I maybe saw Obs doing with less number of cities.
So I think before nocho plays we should voice our opinions on the matter.
I too have to think it through, because this are all only initial feelings after seeing the screenshots ;-).
Maybe except the settler a little bit because I thought we will go with 4 city breakout to get lesser maintenance for cats warfare (i will have to check ingame the spot you're talking about).
Sal imo makes more and more moves to motivate us to kill him soon ;-). That city by oasis is pure insult! He has to die (he has the ivory anyway
).I think it is right call to work 2 cities for scientists, should bring us some needed beakers. We should maybe rethink the aesth a bit though.
It's not on path towards construction.
I think we have to decide now if we go war route or not.
We could of course wait up to cannons and made cannons+muskets+WE's warfare....
I am not sure what would be best. I see it as we need to use 1-move warfare instead of my beloved 2-moves warfare (we should aim for siege+something since WE's are 1-move), that would surely promote constr "soon".
Otoh there is the strict limit with Tao and AW wonder which could be endangered if we go war.
It is claimed on S&T that 6 cities should suffice for ren. breakout. I maybe saw Obs doing with less number of cities.
So I think before nocho plays we should voice our opinions on the matter.
I too have to think it through, because this are all only initial feelings after seeing the screenshots ;-).
You can see the city in screenshot #2.
It has 5(!) dye and cow+grass hills.
Everything goes towards construction path with MM in the game. I brushed on this earlier. We are more or less guaranteed to be able to trade for maths early with him in the game, which is why going lit for GL+drama->philosophy works with an early war.
I want to attack with axes+catapults after having built GL and bulbed philosophy. This is doable around 1 AD.
Pangea in general is very rewarding with tech trades. We can afford this detour. MM's presence minimizes risks as he'll trade anything.
It has 5(!) dye and cow+grass hills.
Everything goes towards construction path with MM in the game. I brushed on this earlier. We are more or less guaranteed to be able to trade for maths early with him in the game, which is why going lit for GL+drama->philosophy works with an early war.
I want to attack with axes+catapults after having built GL and bulbed philosophy. This is doable around 1 AD.
Pangea in general is very rewarding with tech trades. We can afford this detour. MM's presence minimizes risks as he'll trade anything.
vranasm
Deity
ah I see... good potential after IW and calendar, will be drag for awhile.
I am not sure with the distance though, it seems a bit way off.
Hmm I supposed that good attack date is around 400 BC. I am holding to this mantra a bit ;-).
Will have to check the entry date of marble into our borders to get better picture, but I suppose you already checked and everything will be "on time".
Drama should provide good trading chip (together with Aesth ofc). Not used to tech both (Lit and Drama) though.
When we will move capital to flood plains? We should probably start after granary+library. Would be best to move capital before amassing army.
Where we put GL? in former capital?
We're cre/exp. Even in the initial stages it won't be that much of a drag. It can get granary+library up quickly and then run scientists. We'll have 2 grass hills before IW so the jungle is NP.
Once we have alphabet and the city is size 5 it can run 2 scientists while producing research working cow+mine+mine -- that's some excellent research right there.
We'll get calendar early here too (pangea), so the tile yields are good.
We also have lots of AIs to trade dye to for either gold or resources in return.
For me settling this city is a no-brainer.
GL goes in current capital for me.
Once we have alphabet and the city is size 5 it can run 2 scientists while producing research working cow+mine+mine -- that's some excellent research right there.
We'll get calendar early here too (pangea), so the tile yields are good.
We also have lots of AIs to trade dye to for either gold or resources in return.
For me settling this city is a no-brainer.
GL goes in current capital for me.
vranasm
Deity
oh I didn't want to say it's useless city... don't take it personal
. I think it is good catch on good spot (which will be after iw and plantation stellar).I would prefer to have it 4 tiles closer and with at least 1 more food source, that's all.
I generally don't like not compact empires and this city is kind of "beachhead" which will be tough to connect back with other cities, since there doesn't seem to be any other good city spot with food bonuses.
But this I judge only by pictures and my imagination ;-). Will have to check the game again better.
I didn't take it personal, I simply disagree.
Compact empires are only a necessity in MP. For SP it's all about the cost and this city brings in profit so soon that settling it is by far worth the initial cost.
And yes, it's not that far away. Once it has its BFC there are only 2 tiles separating it from the pig city BFC.
Compact empires are only a necessity in MP. For SP it's all about the cost and this city brings in profit so soon that settling it is by far worth the initial cost.
And yes, it's not that far away. Once it has its BFC there are only 2 tiles separating it from the pig city BFC.
And I just noticed this. Worth a post of its own.
We've settled on top of marble already.
Spoiler :
vranasm
Deity
oh... well surely worth the laugh!
I just was still looking at the marble in the northern tundra and was thinking about making city settled on it with sheep as food resource...
tells you something ;-)
I just was still looking at the marble in the northern tundra and was thinking about making city settled on it with sheep as food resource...
tells you something ;-)
Looks good! Not that I doubted that it would. I'll look at the save this evening and post something of a plan, though it seems most important things have been discussed already. I do like the aesthetics line. The proposed city spot looks good too from the screenshot, should check how far it really is with the save. Agree though that it will contribute soon enough. Can't see very well from the ss how many turns it takes for the libraries to finish (5&6?), but presumably it won't be necessary to whip those, so that we can immediately hire 2 scientists without the need for regrowth first. I guess we best keep research at 0% until at least both these libraries finish. The pig spot obviously can use one quickly too. Heck, gold city too.
edit: umm, you guys post too fast! 4 posts since I started typing... 
I'll look at the save this evening and post something of a plan, though it seems most important things have been discussed already. I do like the aesthetics line. The proposed city spot looks good too from the screenshot, should check how far it really is with the save. Agree though that it will contribute soon enough. Can't see very well from the ss how many turns it takes for the libraries to finish (5&6?), but presumably it won't be necessary to whip those, so that we can immediately hire 2 scientists without the need for regrowth first. I guess we best keep research at 0% until at least both these libraries finish. The pig spot obviously can use one quickly too. Heck, gold city too.edit: umm, you guys post too fast!
4 posts since I started typing... vranasm
Deity
finally checked the save...
I think the cow spot is gone. there is WK settler party 1E from warrior.
if I am right we could use very unorthodox city spot 2S from the horses far east which gets those pigs and flood plains from gold city and horses in top.
Didn't found any other city spot available which would make much sense.
I think the cow spot is gone. there is WK settler party 1E from warrior.
if I am right we could use very unorthodox city spot 2S from the horses far east which gets those pigs and flood plains from gold city and horses in top.
Didn't found any other city spot available which would make much sense.
Similar threads
