Mighty Suryavarman II

[vranasm]

just checking the save

I think we're set up for early OU, or such it seems to me, since it will need to be whipped we need to grow cities a bit more and not whip much infra.

Soo I think I would probably max whip barays, but not CH's (maybe with the east city exception) and wait for Education.

I saw we're set up for 3rd GS. Not bad of course, but I think we could probably switch to merchants to gamble for Great Merchant better? For upgrades or some serious teching after TM.

I agree with farming everything except capital.

edit:
At the end of GA I would switch into Burea+Slavery+OR (not surprising)

 

[nocho]

I like the gamble for GM. We can hire an extra spec actually, to get great person in 3 turns. That's with 1 turn left to go on GA, so ideal moment for the bur/slav/OR switch. So GM will do mission, not sure about GS. What will it bulb at that point (after paper/edu I mean)? Afraid stuff like compass is in the way. Maybe settle in our new cap (OU city)? Paper will finish in 4 turns, after that will immediately double bulb edu with the 2 current GSs. What do we tech after edu? Immediately lib, or maybe first nationalism to lib MT, supposing lib is rather save for the time being.

The Barays in queue are good. We're quite compact and only 7 cities, so no dire need for CHs yet imo. All cities except the northern icey one will build universities, though ofc the cap should first try and spit out Angkor.

Agree with farming, not much else to do for workers anyway.

I think we can get some gpt for our spare sheep. Deals with Arabs look improveable (gpt). Hope stupid MoM gets built so we can trade for calendar. Grab HBR, stables will be good for cuirs.

If I play my SGOTM set tomorrow, won't get to this until Wednesday evening soonest. If discussion rages on with SGOTM, might get to it tomorrow though.

 

[nocho]

As a Great Man said, not so long ago: Silence is Golden! Took that to heart and went ahead. Stopped when a for the variant rather important building got completed:

For the rest a pretty straightforward set with a lot of trading and a civic change, just after we popped yet another GS despite the merchants hired.

We self researched paper, then double bulbed edu and went ahead with liberalism. As I hand over the set we have 1 turn left on lib, be it with non-sustainable expenses. We also have that GS sitting around still, it would bulb compass. I was thinking that maybe it's best used for a part bulb of PP or chemistry later.

I'll spare you all the screenshots, but here's the trades that we did that I recorded:
Mansa: OB
Sal: HBR+5g for CoL
Biz: WM+50g for Lit
Just: 130g for HBR
Sal: Gems+4gpt for copper (renegotiated)
Wang: 5gpt for sheep
Wang: Calendar+180g+WM for Music
Mansa: MC+WM for Music
Wang: Feud+WM for CS+Drama
Just: 4gpt for Silk

That makes us stand here:

We have a very firm grip on lib (philo+paper monopolies), so we can easily tech something else (nat to lib MT for instance). 2 universities are finished, 2 are about to, number 5 won't take long with a whip and number 6 just started, as it is the one in Angkor Wat itself, which was busy the whole time with itself, haha (Angkor Wat wonder). It can be built naturally in 5 turns though. We should get some forges out soon. I built a hindu missionary by the way for our capital to get the OR bonus. That really helped with Angkor (and presumably with Uni + OU ).

Curiously we just became WE of Sal. We were WE of Just for a while while he was with hands full. Just and Mansa hate each other so let's hope the red fist is for Mansa. Anyway, the various WE statuses made me trade for feudalism, though with CS fairly well known at the time a logical deal imo. Pacal refuses to talk to us. Can't remember if that happened due to some cancel deal demand in a previous set, it got me scratching my head for a moment as I wanted to sell off literature. Tech pace seems slow for a game with Mansa, Pacal and Wang.

 

[vranasm]

Thanks nocho for playing the TS.

It looks very good.

This is an got it and PPP post with some of my thoughts about situation and where I would like to head with the save.

To me it's clear what we have to do.

1) tech nationalism, but i will first bank some gold, after nat we should start TM imo.

2) finish OU in capital. I would whip the 6th uni (not the capital one but the deer+marble spot) once it's available, slow finish Uni in capital and whip OU in capital asap

3) instead of building wealth I would whip barays and forges everywhere, then build wealth.

4) not sure with diplo, the "sal situation" I consider dangerous, we need the religion though for OR bonus.

At first I was actually thinking about building some longbows.
What about 2 pop whips into barays, forges? to get some defense on sal's border.
I think if i invest only few hammers into LB they are still 2-pop whip? (they are 50 hammers build, so my understanding is at 19/50 it's still 2-pop whip?)

__________
not sure if I should fulfill point 1 before OU. I would actually bank all the gold until OU is whipped, then we switch into 100% research.

The target is to play around 10 turns as always by me ;-).

 

[nocho]

You can keep science at 0% at least until all universities are done. Oxford without stone is a bit painful (like Angkor was), I guess when you start it you should estimate if it's worth to wait moving up the slider until it's done. Your call.

Agree with infra (barays/forges). Not sure about where/if we have any barracks, but I guess it wouldn't hurt to assign at least Angkor Tom to military, maybe the western city as well. I guess the overflow idea with LBs might work, though I wouldn't go all too whip-crazy. We're not that food rich generally and likely we want to do some heavy cuir whipping later, so we need to grow a bit more in anticipation (though there's quite some time still ofc).

 

[vranasm]

I understand your concern, but we need the barayr's, forges and military almost at once.

As I understand it OF from LB's should be multiplied by 25% OR, so it will be somewhat okish i hope.

but let's see what other team members say... I just had a feeling we need at least those forges up, barays are questionable (even if they bring food ;-))

 

[Rusten]

Edit: Nevermind, I think I mis-read your post.

 

[lymond]

Yep, I canceled contact with Pacal per Wang's request. We could not afford to have Wang jump us at that point.

After the Uni in Ankor Wat, I would 2 pop the Forge into Ox. We really need the forge there.

Cities like Ankor Thom and the copper city can focus on units solely after getting in Unis and forges. Thom can use a baray too, but we can simply whip units into it.

We could just Lib Nationalism now and start on GP and MT and the Taj. It might end up being faster than waiting to Lib MT. The GA will likely help with gold generation, research and hopefully GM production. We can build horse archer and maybe Balistas (if we can trade for ivory) in the interim and upgrade them once MT is in.

 

[vranasm]

interesting idea with popping nat right away... only small problem with the fact we don't have the infra up yet...

what about finishing OU first, banking gold and putting 0% slider into gunpowder and then we decide if we pop Nat or MT from lib?

I take it as everyone is for getting forges out asap together with some longbows.

Would like to hear what i had wrong Rusten...

 

[lymond]

Infra for what? Either way we will run the slider at 0% on something. Libbing Nat allows as to get started on the Taj - probably in Ankor Thom and the GA should be timely sooner than later.

Forges definitely. A couple of LBs, but I think we should build mounted units mainly for upgrade later.

 

[vranasm]

infra means forges and barays, we just don't have them and they will be probably whipped.
we don't have finished OU.

that's something like at least 10 turns away to get the pop back together with all those buildings.
So libbing Nat isn't that strong if I plan to do whips into infra.
Capital has no hammers to spare for TM right now.

All I am saying we can wait and not commit into libbing right now.

 

[lymond]

My point is that I don't see the connection on the decision to Lib>Nat now (build Taj) and getting forges and barays up. In fact, I think it works quite well with what we have and the fact that we may do some moderate whipping. We are going to run binary for a while regardless of what decision we make and what tech we use as a placeholder.

First of all, I would not build Taj in Ankor Wat (cap). Ankor Thom is the perfect place to build it. Thom already has a Baray and partially built Forge that can be whipped into Taj next turn, after Thom completes its Uni this turn (another plus). (Thom also has Parth so it marries G.Artists points)

This allows us to start running binary next turn on MT as we finish out the Unis and Ox and whip some stuff. This should time well with the Golden Age from Taj which should come in (or we can control its finish) once all the beaker modifiers are in place and are cities grow back, meaning we raise the slider during a Golden Age. OR we end up finishing MT and GP by the time Taj finishes and use gold from the GA to upgrade all the mounted units we build between now and then.

 

[vranasm]

checked ingame the beakers cost...it's around 300 beakers, after OU it's probably 1-2T on 100% slider for us, so it doesn't look like big difference gained.

What the rest of team thinks about libbing Nat now and banking gold for MT+GP?

btw it looks like even if we sit so close to lib, we can't pop it in 1T now, since we don't have enough gold, so more like 2 turns for lib->nat.

 

[vranasm]

Not much comments, so I went and played. I decided that actually libbing Nat isn't that bad.

T133 we win the lib race

Spoiler :

and take Nationalism

Spoiler :

I started to bank gold on MT.

Renegotiated Saladdin deal

Spoiler :

The same with Bismarck

Spoiler :

And WK too

Spoiler :

wasn't sure why we didn't took sugar/dyes from WK...
Saladdin dropped out of WE status, which was very good.

Mansa wanted Philo, but i declined, don't like to give away gold

Spoiler :

AP was built in budh

Spoiler :

was tough to judge who to vote for... I went with Justinian since Bismarck is already pleased, but Justy is WE

We got good OF into Taj Mahal

Spoiler :

And Justinian indeed won

Spoiler :

He went for a turn into cautios and then back into annoyed...he is in red fist

Another day, another offer for Philo, this time from WK

Spoiler :

We finally start with OU in new capital with some OF from forge

Spoiler :

And we end the TS with yet another GS popped

Spoiler :

There is couple of things to decide

1) what to do with those scientists?
2) What about some tech trades?
3) Take back horses from MM?
4) Switch to 100% science and finish MT before OU?
Taj Mahal is in 7T, OU in 10T (without whip)

we have couple of LB's in border cities.

 

[nocho]

Sounds good vra, who is up? Sorry to say I haven't had time yet to look at it, busy weekend and other SGs in the way.

 

[vranasm]

I think it should be lymond or whoever wants...

 

[lymond]

Am I up? If so, I'll take a look at stuff today

 

[lymond]

Ok..looks fairly straightforward...here are my thoughts:

1) 1 pop whip Bud monas in Thom and Wat...OF in Taj and Ox, plus AP hammers. Rush some workers to forest south of Wat to chop forest into Ox
2) Get some workers over to Nagara to build workshops or farms
3) Get farms down in Copper city
4) Put a turn or 2 into Machinery and trade it for something like Philo
5) We have a fairly nice tech lead at the moment. I say we continue accumulating some gold before Ox and Taj finish. (If possible, hold off completion of Taj until Ox is finished to maximize beakers)
6) Meanwhile, finish stables in other cities and build as many Knights as possible for upgrades later - pretty cheap upgrade to Curs and we should have plenty of gold. Insta cur army
7) Spread some Bud as well for AP hammers

My thinking is that we go for Sal first. We jump on the hill between Mecca and Baghdad and then hit one of those cities first, but ultimately take Mecca for the ivory. We will need to hit more cities due to the culture though. Take him out or vassal him. Pillage iron or horse and build our Ballistas.

Just situation is interesting. If he wants to attack us, he does not have an easy route. Closed borders with Mali and it is hard to tell if he has a way through to Sal's land which is the only route he can take. He may be going for Mansa.

Once we get the major build in we should switch to Free Religion during the Golden Age. Will help diplo immensely. Although we might want to run Theo or something. Possibly switch to Bud.

 

[vranasm]

plan looks reasonable.

Didn't check the build times but is there a reason for 1-pop whip of monasteries instead of 2-pop?
Not sure with the free religion. OR, Theo even Pac are pretty strong civics especially if we have spread religion everywhere.
If we run Theo then it's questionable if we need to build stables ;-). The same effect, but Theo comes cheaper.

Another thought is if we build stables and run Theo+Vass we would pump out 9xp cuirs... so only 1 fight from C3...

switching to Bud would indeed make us stronger in AP. Sal is juda, WK is hindu and both we probably capture.

How we will approach the "WE" situation? Will we do the cheap road with using GG for 20 exp WE? It's surely safer and doesn't delay the mounted warfare.
I have to admit that wasn't the intent of "map maker", but the rules allow it.

 

[Rusten]

Sorry for lack of posts, had a very busy week and will have another. Don't expect much activity from me until Wednesday. Will need a skip.