[MOD] Fall from Heaven

[Ploeperpengel]

The new Buttons are up. Have a look at post 3.
Edit Included a few dwarven buildings for you but just 2D I'm afraid.

Thx for the advice. Just saw that I forgot to add the golden Dragon and the Unicorn to the screenie. Have a look at the last one it's written Einhorn. Maybe you can convince some of the 3D-Modders to make one. Would love to see that!
Edit maybe as a Babarian Worldunit in the Beginning of the game and of course fitting for elves.

 

[Pratputajao]

Well I must say you guys have done some really good work so far; but i am wondering- Does the latest version Include Fantasy Civilizations? The last version I used didnt have them and it felt.... odd to play the Persians in a fantasy setting I know there is a Civ over at the New Civs section that you can download for use with this... But I have been lazy. I know the answer is already here somewhere but Wow a lot of posts!!! So I thought I would just ask rather then try and look it up.

Thanks for the great work guys!

 

[Kael]

Well I must say you guys have done some really good work so far; but i am wondering- Does the latest version Include Fantasy Civilizations? The last version I used didnt have them and it felt.... odd to play the Persians in a fantasy setting I know there is a Civ over at the New Civs section that you can download for use with this... But I have been lazy. I know the answer is already here somewhere but Wow a lot of posts!!! So I thought I would just ask rather then try and look it up.

Thanks for the great work guys!

Yes. Haarbal's fantasy civs have been incorporated into this version of FfH. enjoy!

 

[felwar]

I was playing a highlands/raging barbarians map over the weekend, and I had 1 suggestion, and a couple observations:

Suggestion: Is it possible to change the watch towers from a terrain feature to an improvement? This would be a mixed bag in that you could only build them within your cultural borders, but it would go a long way in keeping barbarian activity down. As it stands, there are often large stretches of ice that I need to park a bunch of extra sentry units across. Not sure if it's possible due to game mechanics for visibility enhancing terrain though.

Observations: This is probably a normal civ mechanic that I'm just noticing, but I managed to completely stop barbarian attacks against my civ by blocking mountain passes with troops. This didnt just protect me because the troops killed attacking barbarians, the barbarians completely stopped even trying to attack me and just avoided my civilization entirely. If I left one pass open, they would come through that and I would never see them from any other direction. Meanwhile they wiped out 8 other civs. Seems somewhat easy to exploit.

Also, around turn 300 I think, all barbarian activity simply stopped. I thought it was odd that the few remaining civilizations were suddenly doing much better, so I entered the world builder. There were some barbarian cities, included several they had conquered, but no regular troops left at all. Is this normal?

 

[cordas]

Also, around turn 300 I think, all barbarian activity simply stopped. I thought it was odd that the few remaining civilizations were suddenly doing much better, so I entered the world builder. There were some barbarian cities, included several they had conquered, but no regular troops left at all. Is this normal?

I have noticed similar problems with barbarians, and with them building new cities that are left undefended the largest undefended city I have seen is size 6.

I tend to play on terra worlds where there is an unihabited continent which is usualy settled by barbars if that makes any difference. I thought it might be due to a number cap on barbar units.

 

[wainwrig]

Kael,

First - Fantastic Mod! I've played over a dozen games since getting it (started with .95) and haven't been able to bring myself to mix in a vanilla civ game yet. However, I do have some balance observations that I hope will help with 1.0+.

In general I've been playing on Monarch, large, continents, with a couple of extra civs. Over 2/3rds of the games I've played I've quit because by late-early game, say turn 200 (or 300 on epic), I'm on my way to a dominating (aka too easy) victory. There are a few simple changes that I'd recommend that would help fix this problem.

The biggest problem is that the AI civs are using Warriors as city defense WAY too late in the game. It is very common for me to have taken out >6 cities with a couple of non-rushed Axemen because the AI has nothing but Warriors defending. The fix I propose is to make Archer's much easier to get. I would replace Militia with Archery. Once the AI gets Archers they become far harder to take. They can also defend themselves much better against Barbs. As it is, I almost never have Archers until I have Axemen and a religion special, and that doesn't make a lot of sense. I'd take the old Archery tech slot and add in Blacksmithing. A dead end that allows construction of Barracks (now called Blacksmiths) and its units. That way you can get Bronze Working to find copper and cut down forests, but not also give the military advantage without having gotten Warfare. And if you don't have Copper you don't have to get the tech.

Second, copper is too important in the early game. With copper you can get Form of the Titan and Axemen really early. Without it the best early unit you can get is the Drown (see below). To simplify, I've never had anything but a trivial win if I have copper start near me, and my only real loss came when I didn't have it. The fix above would help, but I'd also change Form of the Titan to require Marble/Stone regardless.

Third, the Drown are too good and too quick. The cost increase will help, but I think you also need to make OO require a different tech. It takes 3 techs to get OO, and 6 (with 1 potentially free from Philosophy) for the other two. I think you've talked about adding Philosophy as a requirement, and that would be fine, or something else like Cartography and Optics. With that and the Drown cost increase I think it is balanced.

Fourth, in the mid-game Conjurers are way too effective, much more so than mages. Even the already announced balance changes won't be enough I feel. As long as they are stacked with a couple decent defending units they aren't going to be attacked directly, the elementals are still just attackers that never have to heal. Until the Phase 2 changes I'd recommend dropping both the elemental strength and conjurer strength by an additional 1 beyond the proposed change. Or, another option would be to add a couple extra techs pre-conjurer. Sorcery would be obvious, but again, I'd just skip mages until Conjurers. Something like Unquestioning Obedience instead of Polytheism would make it a tougher choice.

Obviously, these are just based on my experiences, but with them I think the AI would have a much better chance of standing up to the human player.

Again, let me say that I am frankly in awe of this mod. I can't belive the magnitude of the changes you have made and how effectively you've changed the feel of the game without wrecking the balance. There is no question that if I could only play vanilla civ4 or FFH for the rest of my life, I'd keep .95. I can't wait for 1.0 and beyond.

 

[Kael]

I was playing a highlands/raging barbarians map over the weekend, and I had 1 suggestion, and a couple observations:

Suggestion: Is it possible to change the watch towers from a terrain feature to an improvement? This would be a mixed bag in that you could only build them within your cultural borders, but it would go a long way in keeping barbarian activity down. As it stands, there are often large stretches of ice that I need to park a bunch of extra sentry units across. Not sure if it's possible due to game mechanics for visibility enhancing terrain though.

That was the origional intent of the sentry towers but it was failed because the AI didn't understand how to use them effectivly. Because their tactical use was significant they were converted to terrain features to keep it from being unbalancing. We will consider making them buildable in the furture if we can get the AI to make good use of them.

Observations: This is probably a normal civ mechanic that I'm just noticing, but I managed to completely stop barbarian attacks against my civ by blocking mountain passes with troops. This didnt just protect me because the troops killed attacking barbarians, the barbarians completely stopped even trying to attack me and just avoided my civilization entirely. If I left one pass open, they would come through that and I would never see them from any other direction. Meanwhile they wiped out 8 other civs. Seems somewhat easy to exploit.

Thats a very valid strategy for the highlands map. The barbarians will avoid well defended stacks and you should be able to protect your empire if you make good use of your units and the surrounding terrain.

Also, around turn 300 I think, all barbarian activity simply stopped. I thought it was odd that the few remaining civilizations were suddenly doing much better, so I entered the world builder. There were some barbarian cities, included several they had conquered, but no regular troops left at all. Is this normal?

Yeah, the alorithym that places units is based on the amount of the world that is undiscovered. As the fog of war goes away less and less barbarians will appear. Animals actually stop being created and are all destroyed when there are over a certain amount of cities in the world (the actual amount is based on the world size). This last function (destroying all the animals at a certain point) has been removed in 1.0.

 

[Lightzy]

Sorry about this but, er, any kind of approximate ETA for 1.0?

 

[felwar]

That was the origional intent of the sentry towers but it was failed because the AI didn't understand how to use them effectivly. Because their tactical use was significant they were converted to terrain features to keep it from being unbalancing. We will consider making them buildable in the furture if we can get the AI to make good use of them.

Thanks for the reply Kael. On this answer though, I would immediately point at forts. Yes they're a carry over, but the AI doesn't use them either, or understand how they work. And for a player, you're better off building an elf and just planting forests.

Anyway, just saying that for an improvement of that type, the precedent is there.

 

[ditb]

Hi Kael!

First of all, I wanted to echo all of the statements that say this mod rocks! I am currently bumbling and stumbling through FFH for the first time, and I am amazed at the level of customization you and your team have achieved.

On that note, for those of us that are still new to the units/buildings/religions, is there any sort of reference guide or spreadsheet that shows unit capabilities, building characteristics, etc.? The civlopedia is great for that task, but I can’t exactly stare at that all day at work. I have saved out all of the pics of the various unit upgrades, and I am sure that will help somewhat.

Is there any sort of reference guide out there? If not, I’ll keep plodding through and may try to come up with one on my own, if I could figure out a good way to do so.

Thanks for an amazing mod.

Dave

 

[Kael]

Kael,

First - Fantastic Mod! I've played over a dozen games since getting it (started with .95) and haven't been able to bring myself to mix in a vanilla civ game yet. However, I do have some balance observations that I hope will help with 1.0+.

In general I've been playing on Monarch, large, continents, with a couple of extra civs. Over 2/3rds of the games I've played I've quit because by late-early game, say turn 200 (or 300 on epic), I'm on my way to a dominating (aka too easy) victory. There are a few simple changes that I'd recommend that would help fix this problem.

Welcome to civfanatics, I always love to see first posters here.

The biggest problem is that the AI civs are using Warriors as city defense WAY too late in the game. It is very common for me to have taken out >6 cities with a couple of non-rushed Axemen because the AI has nothing but Warriors defending. The fix I propose is to make Archer's much easier to get. I would replace Militia with Archery. Once the AI gets Archers they become far harder to take. They can also defend themselves much better against Barbs. As it is, I almost never have Archers until I have Axemen and a religion special, and that doesn't make a lot of sense. I'd take the old Archery tech slot and add in Blacksmithing. A dead end that allows construction of Barracks (now called Blacksmiths) and its units. That way you can get Bronze Working to find copper and cut down forests, but not also give the military advantage without having gotten Warfare. And if you don't have Copper you don't have to get the tech.

I think you are right here. Lunargent is building the tech tree for phase 2 and I know he has had similiar concerns. I'll let him comment to this but I will say this is being redone for phase 2 but won't change in 1.0. Although im willing to do minor tweaks in 1.0 i dont want to make larger changes like this.

I suspect some of your issue comes form the fact that you are overloading the map. This increases the chance for resource constraints and you will see more civs that are unable to upgrade units and a larger distinction between the haves and the have nots.

Second, copper is too important in the early game. With copper you can get Form of the Titan and Axemen really early. Without it the best early unit you can get is the Drown (see below). To simplify, I've never had anything but a trivial win if I have copper start near me, and my only real loss came when I didn't have it. The fix above would help, but I'd also change Form of the Titan to require Marble/Stone regardless.

Lunargent also wants a "copperless" axeman to help with this discrepancy. Basically a spearman that isn't as tough as an axeman but can be built without copper. Im not sold on the idea yet as I consider archers to be copperless axemen but I think some tech tree changes like you mentioned above will help the situation.

Third, the Drown are too good and too quick. The cost increase will help, but I think you also need to make OO require a different tech. It takes 3 techs to get OO, and 6 (with 1 potentially free from Philosophy) for the other two. I think you've talked about adding Philosophy as a requirement, and that would be fine, or something else like Cartography and Optics. With that and the Drown cost increase I think it is balanced.

Philosophy is already a requirement for Message from the Deep.

Fourth, in the mid-game Conjurers are way too effective, much more so than mages. Even the already announced balance changes won't be enough I feel. As long as they are stacked with a couple decent defending units they aren't going to be attacked directly, the elementals are still just attackers that never have to heal. Until the Phase 2 changes I'd recommend dropping both the elemental strength and conjurer strength by an additional 1 beyond the proposed change. Or, another option would be to add a couple extra techs pre-conjurer. Sorcery would be obvious, but again, I'd just skip mages until Conjurers. Something like Unquestioning Obedience instead of Polytheism would make it a tougher choice.

Yeah, Im not sure how this is going to play out. In 1.0 fireballs can travel across land and sea tiles, meaning a mage can sit in a boat and fireball a city or unit on the coast and vise versa.

My real counter for the current mage/conjurer problem is the marksmen ability. Units that attack the weakest unit in the defending stack (if it isnt in a city) instead of the strongest. That was intended to be the foil for spellcasters but i havent been able to implement it. For now I will probably leave it as is, they were reduced in strength in 0.95 already and I dont want to reduce again and risk making them underpowered, but something will need to be done long term.

Obviously, these are just based on my experiences, but with them I think the AI would have a much better chance of standing up to the human player.

Again, let me say that I am frankly in awe of this mod. I can't belive the magnitude of the changes you have made and how effectively you've changed the feel of the game without wrecking the balance. There is no question that if I could only play vanilla civ4 or FFH for the rest of my life, I'd keep .95. I can't wait for 1.0 and beyond.

Cool, and thanks for the awesome feedback. It really does help us out as we work on the design for phase 2 to get feedback like this. To be honest I spend so much time working on the mod I dont have a lot of time to play it. I play through 1 game each weekend just to make sure that it is running well but that is as much play time as I get, so I need feedback like this to see how people that are really playing feel.

 

[Kael]

Hi Kael!

First of all, I wanted to echo all of the statements that say this mod rocks! I am currently bumbling and stumbling through FFH for the first time, and I am amazed at the level of customization you and your team have achieved.

On that note, for those of us that are still new to the units/buildings/religions, is there any sort of reference guide or spreadsheet that shows unit capabilities, building characteristics, etc.? The civlopedia is great for that task, but I can’t exactly stare at that all day at work. I have saved out all of the pics of the various unit upgrades, and I am sure that will help somewhat.

Is there any sort of reference guide out there? If not, I’ll keep plodding through and may try to come up with one on my own, if I could figure out a good way to do so.

Thanks for an amazing mod.

Dave

Not really. But one of the feature list items for phase 2 is a "FfH editor". What this is an excel spreadsheet with all of the xml values in it. I don't typically mess with the xml for the mod, instead I do everything in excel and then write a macro to export the spreadsheet data to the xml form that Civ4 wants. My desire is to put this all in a common xls file that anyone can load and look at data in the mod. Even better they can make a change in spreadsheet and run the macro to change their version of FfH.

Want your favorite leader to be have the Organized trait instead of Creative? Change it in the spreadsheet and run the macro. Want to reduce the strength of Fire Elementals? change it in the spreadsheet and run the macro.

So this is being built into phase 2, but it doesn't exist in phase 1.

 

[Kael]

Kael, I'm not sure if you're aware of this but you can research the religion specific techs without having them as your state religion. You can't select it from the main screen but if you go into the scientific advisor screen you can research them. I usually play Overlords and would always research hidden paths for the +1 hammer from lumbermills, but I've never had FoL as my state religion.


Just a heads up.

Yeah, thats an engine bug. The tech screen doesn't check the "cannotResearch" function when it allows players to pick a tech. When you get 1.0 you will have this fix as well.

 

[Kael]

Sorry about this but, er, any kind of approximate ETA for 1.0?

Soon? I hope. In all honesty I don't know. Could be tomorrow, could be in a month. I REALLY hope its not in a month. It's really completly out of my control.

It creates a version nightmare for me. I am supporting 0.95, 1.0 and 1.1 (phase 2 alpha) right now. If you guys find a bug in 0.95 right now I have 3 seperate versions I have to fix it in. Not to mention Im starting to forget the 0.95 stuff since I haven't touched it except to apply a tweak recommnded here in over a month and 1.0 is even older than 0.95 (I made 0.95 out of 1.0 by removing the features I can't release yet from 1.0).

I will be MUCH happier when I can release 1.0, drop support for 0.95 and go back to my normal "support the old version work on the new version" model.

 

[Zuul]

Maybe add towers in cities (as in Song of the Moon) at least until the AI can handle it outside.

 

[Kael]

Maybe add towers in cities (as in Song of the Moon) at least until the AI can handle it outside.

Yeah, thats going to be a civ specific building in phase 2.

 

[PapaMonkey]

Your spreadsheet macro is an EXCELLENT idea. That will make Modding anything easier. That alone is a boon for anyone (like me), who likes the idea of Modding, but lacks the time to familiarize oneself with the XML. Its not that the language is difficult, it is simply knowing all the inter-relational things that need to be done to effectively impliment the change. With an excel sheet that puts everything in a user friendly form and then generates teh xlm, that is very nice. I've done a similar thing with HTML code in an excel worksheet, but nothing so complex as what you are doing.

Another great idea!

 

[ma.KaBre]

Yeah, thats an engine bug. The tech screen doesn't check the "cannotResearch" function when it allows players to pick a tech. When you get 1.0 you will have this fix as well.

Well, this definately sounds like we are waiting for a civ4-patch

 

[Kerrang]

A question: werewolves on boats. If you have a full boat, and a werewolf attacks a stack from it, what happens to the spawned werewolf? (glug glug glug?) Didn't manage to see a werewolf spawn in this situation, but didn't try that hard.

I had a werewolf stuck in the water once. I don't remember exactly how I got him there, but he was unable to move from the tile until I sent a ship by to pick him up. The unit did not drown or anything, just sat in place until I got a ship to him.

 

[Oran-ge]

Wait, Kael, I'm curious, what is this issue that's completely out of your control that's preventing you from releasing 1.0? (sorry if it's been said before)