Modding the aspects of "Game Speed"
- Thread starter King Jason
- Start date
4000 BC
<iYearIncrement>20</iYearIncrement>
<iTurnsPerIncrement>150</iTurnsPerIncrement>
<iYearIncrement>12</iYearIncrement>
<iTurnsPerIncrement>120</iTurnsPerIncrement>
<iYearIncrement>10</iYearIncrement
<iTurnsPerIncrement>50</iTurnsPerIncrement>
<iYearIncrement>5</iYearIncrement>
<iTurnsPerIncrement>100</iTurnsPerIncrement>
<iYearIncrement>2</iYearIncrement>
<iTurnsPerIncrement>140</iTurnsPerIncrement>
<iYearIncrement>1</iYearIncrement>
<iTurnsPerIncrement>300</iTurnsPerIncrement>
4000 BC
20*150=3000y 1000 BC
12*120=1440y 440 AD
10*50=500y 940 AD
5*100=500Y 1440 AD
2*140=280y 1720 AD
1*300=300y 2020 AD
This would give 860 turns - twice as much than a normal game I believe
<iYearIncrement>20</iYearIncrement>
<iTurnsPerIncrement>150</iTurnsPerIncrement>
<iYearIncrement>12</iYearIncrement>
<iTurnsPerIncrement>120</iTurnsPerIncrement>
<iYearIncrement>10</iYearIncrement
<iTurnsPerIncrement>50</iTurnsPerIncrement>
<iYearIncrement>5</iYearIncrement>
<iTurnsPerIncrement>100</iTurnsPerIncrement>
<iYearIncrement>2</iYearIncrement>
<iTurnsPerIncrement>140</iTurnsPerIncrement>
<iYearIncrement>1</iYearIncrement>
<iTurnsPerIncrement>300</iTurnsPerIncrement>
4000 BC
20*150=3000y 1000 BC
12*120=1440y 440 AD
10*50=500y 940 AD
5*100=500Y 1440 AD
2*140=280y 1720 AD
1*300=300y 2020 AD
This would give 860 turns - twice as much than a normal game I believe
For anyone who wants to make a new game speed setting, but doesn't want to try editing too much, here's my own files. (Note, the settings aren't "fixed" yet, copy/paste other peoples specific settings for a better speed.)
As for where to put the files, C:\Documents and Settings\LOCAL USER\My Documents\My Games\Civilization 4\CustomAssets\xml\gameinfo
Yet again, this is more a "quick mod", to let people get a new setting without having to make major changes. I'm sure someone else can edit the files to make a much better mod.
As for where to put the files, C:\Documents and Settings\LOCAL USER\My Documents\My Games\Civilization 4\CustomAssets\xml\gameinfo
Yet again, this is more a "quick mod", to let people get a new setting without having to make major changes. I'm sure someone else can edit the files to make a much better mod.
Maybe we should just double everything on the normal difficulty and then lower the cost of all military units by 50% in medival and 25% in modern. I am going to try that out.
Also dont allow tech trading that really brings the whole system down. You still will get benefits on the cost of the techs if other have discovered it. If anybody can find the modifier on how much it goes down if somebody else have it please let me know. I wish to increase the bonus and keep tech trading off. Would be more realistic anyway.
Another system that would be good is that you only get a bonus to discover a tech if you trade it from somebody, like a blueprint you still have to discover it yourself.
Also dont allow tech trading that really brings the whole system down. You still will get benefits on the cost of the techs if other have discovered it. If anybody can find the modifier on how much it goes down if somebody else have it please let me know. I wish to increase the bonus and keep tech trading off. Would be more realistic anyway.
Another system that would be good is that you only get a bonus to discover a tech if you trade it from somebody, like a blueprint you still have to discover it yourself.
JumpinDuck
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2005
- Messages
- 5
Behaviour of AIs in research is also strange. I have Russians who have grenadiers and riflemen now for example, while no others have such units. I guess they just went on discovering the most advanced tech available, while neglecting the others. I'm not sure but I really don't see how can they have so advanced units, all by them selves. I mean, you can go into the next "age" just by discovering a single tech, while some basic techs from your previous age can remain unresearched. Is it by any chance possible to prevent research of technologies that advance you into next age until say 70% or 80% of the techs from the current age are done?
southafrica
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2005
- Messages
- 233
King Jason,
Thanks for creating this thread! I mean last night I think I had my first real CIV 4 Civilization Experience... A major case of One more turn, (went to sleep at 12:30, and have to wake up at 5:30) With normal settings on the epic scale with slowed research it finally feels like an epic game instead of a technological spamfest.
Thanks!
Thanks for creating this thread! I mean last night I think I had my first real CIV 4 Civilization Experience... A major case of One more turn, (went to sleep at 12:30, and have to wake up at 5:30) With normal settings on the epic scale with slowed research it finally feels like an epic game instead of a technological spamfest.
Thanks!
a lot of problems announced in this thread could be simply solved:
just edit in the epic speed the time to build units. if you lower this to say 100,
all the rest stays the same, but you build units faster, so you have more to battle with
i'm not sure if this is what you people search for, maybe it's me not getting the point
just edit in the epic speed the time to build units. if you lower this to say 100,
all the rest stays the same, but you build units faster, so you have more to battle with
i'm not sure if this is what you people search for, maybe it's me not getting the point
That alone does not work, because the game turns would still pass by too quickly for extended fighting where you would wage an actual WAR with mainly pre-medieval units.Bevertje said:
There's a balance to be found between the research costs and the game turns. And then one needs to consider the effect of having more turns to build city buildings/get great people with...gets complicated and takes a few days of gaming to home in on a more desired advancement speed.
Adam7Eight
Emperor
Bevertje said:
I've already tried and covered that. The problem with lowering unit-building that much, is then you'll be producing warriors in 1 turn and even worse, settlers in 5-10 turns. Maybe that's what some people want, but I don't. These adjustments made into the speed file are going to have to be at the minimum so you're not getting exaggerated results in one direction or the other. Units and buildings are going to have to be edited to make it work.
In regards to infrastructure, if you raise everything the same amount, then you're still going to have the same problem we already have with the default settings, only it's going to take longer. Nothing is being accomplished by keeping everything at the same percentage.
I still think the original idea of raising research to 200-250% and leaving everything else at default, except training, which should be lowered just a tad, is the best way to go to without all the extra work of adjusting specific unit and building costs.
If someone doesn't mind doing a little bit of work, then raising individual tech costs as mentioned earlier is probably the best option, IMO. The question is, how much should each tech be increased? 10? 15? 20? 25? Should the increase be releative to the era the techs are in?
I know we have differing opinions on this, but if you want to do this right then you're going to have to edit more than just the speed percentages. I don't see anyway around it.
Agreed, 100% units costs is too little. It ends with you pushing out even heavier units in a turn or two. I've noticed this in my tentative 300% research cost, 100% unit cost, double the game turns Epic game.
And with double the turns that early, Medieval era came at 0 BC already, with Gunpowder not far away. Which further proves the already stated fact that research costs and turns cannot be increased at the same exact rate to accomplish the desired effects. Even if I did get a chariot+swordsmen+axemen big war going on over an extended period of time.
I'm also leaning towards adjusting the techs of each period individually. There aren't THAT many to go through, especially if you adjust the research speed modifier so that it covers the biggest portion of those you want to slow down, and then adjust downward the techs before that part.
And with double the turns that early, Medieval era came at 0 BC already, with Gunpowder not far away. Which further proves the already stated fact that research costs and turns cannot be increased at the same exact rate to accomplish the desired effects. Even if I did get a chariot+swordsmen+axemen big war going on over an extended period of time.
I'm also leaning towards adjusting the techs of each period individually. There aren't THAT many to go through, especially if you adjust the research speed modifier so that it covers the biggest portion of those you want to slow down, and then adjust downward the techs before that part.
King Jason
Fleece-bearer
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2005
- Messages
- 2,089
I've come up with with a research timeframe that I've played 3 games of so far. Each game I've play I've had the classical age come at around 2000 BC, the Medievil age hit at around 1000 AD, the renaissance at about 1400-1600, with musketeers coming around 1600+, and the game slows down to a 1 year per turn at 1800 AD with me just entering the industrial age at that same time (around 1800).
Now... that seems pretty darn accurate. My current problem is that for some reason it's back to seeming too fast again. So over the next few days I'm going to work on adjusting the research/ timeprogressed per turn some more. If I can keep the same general timeframe, but get back to the slow pace of things. I really don't know why it the pace picked up though, so far I've done all my maps with 200 research rate.
Oh and by the way, one thing that may be responsible for other civs outresearching you by a siginificant amount is infrastructure. I test all my maps out on the earth map so each time it's in the same setting (start area, resources, etc. random maps produce random results). In each game I've had the germans develop a terrific empire and towards the high end of the tech lvls they begin to outresearch me by quite alot of techs.
The last game I played had them in the modern era while I was still midway through the industrial era.
Now... that seems pretty darn accurate. My current problem is that for some reason it's back to seeming too fast again. So over the next few days I'm going to work on adjusting the research/ timeprogressed per turn some more. If I can keep the same general timeframe, but get back to the slow pace of things. I really don't know why it the pace picked up though, so far I've done all my maps with 200 research rate.
Oh and by the way, one thing that may be responsible for other civs outresearching you by a siginificant amount is infrastructure. I test all my maps out on the earth map so each time it's in the same setting (start area, resources, etc. random maps produce random results). In each game I've had the germans develop a terrific empire and towards the high end of the tech lvls they begin to outresearch me by quite alot of techs.
The last game I played had them in the modern era while I was still midway through the industrial era.
Juriel said:
I've come across the same problem. That could be because you are able to build more buildings (some of which then produce more science), more great people, etc., which then offsets the balance of time/science.
Has anyone tried just taking the 'normal' game speed, and making all the 100's into 200's (in addition to doubling the number of turns)? That could lead to a lot of 'enters' to finish turns.
Hey what's up gang. I went ahead and doubled everything in proportion to my research, the logic being that these are all percents of a value that the developers think is balanced for a given research rate. In other words, if all the values for a 100% reserach rate are 100% (at normal speed), and likewise all values are 150% for the 150% research speed (on epic speed), then just double the epic speed values. Put research at 300%, and everything else, too.
If Fraxis thinks 150% building/construction/improvement/wonder rate when given a 150% research rate will yeild a paticular tech at a given time (what we are looking to do), then they are proportinate and should be kept so. What else can possibly affect this? Well, city growth since it will yield proportionately more hammers than default. keep city growth proportinate.
However, keep two values at 150%= the train percent, so that we can bang out warriors at a good pace and wadge wars. Next, keep barbaians at 150%, because you can make units at 150, so they must appear at that rate, too. The wokers we create will build improvements at 300% (twice as long as 150% default on epic), so that infrastructure issue is minimized. Likewise, buildings and wonders take twice as long to make. Cities take twice as long to grow, as do cultural borders. Everything is doubled, along with research.
What about inflation? I don't know. Bad at econ. Mine's at epic default.
Of course, just half the yearincrement and double turnsperincrement to effectively double the time it takes to do anything.
However, as the previous poster said, even doubling research is not enough. I still cannot wadge a nice long war with one unit type for a few hours. It moves too quickly. I think I'll try 450% (tripple rates) and see how that works.
If Fraxis thinks 150% building/construction/improvement/wonder rate when given a 150% research rate will yeild a paticular tech at a given time (what we are looking to do), then they are proportinate and should be kept so. What else can possibly affect this? Well, city growth since it will yield proportionately more hammers than default. keep city growth proportinate.
However, keep two values at 150%= the train percent, so that we can bang out warriors at a good pace and wadge wars. Next, keep barbaians at 150%, because you can make units at 150, so they must appear at that rate, too. The wokers we create will build improvements at 300% (twice as long as 150% default on epic), so that infrastructure issue is minimized. Likewise, buildings and wonders take twice as long to make. Cities take twice as long to grow, as do cultural borders. Everything is doubled, along with research.
What about inflation? I don't know. Bad at econ. Mine's at epic default.
Of course, just half the yearincrement and double turnsperincrement to effectively double the time it takes to do anything.
However, as the previous poster said, even doubling research is not enough. I still cannot wadge a nice long war with one unit type for a few hours. It moves too quickly. I think I'll try 450% (tripple rates) and see how that works.
jpinard
Martian
I'm curious how many of you are still trying to make the game "complete" within the 2050 A.D. timeframe and if this has made the task at hand more difficult?
I'm playing with that option off to not feel that time contraint. If you always play with that option off, then maybe we can make fewer edits to the tech tree (if we go that route) to slow end-game technology speed-ups (for instance if Jason and duck are still seeing this). Personally if I develop the space race stuff at 2150 A.D instead of 2050 A.D. - that doesn't bother me in the least.
I'm playing with that option off to not feel that time contraint. If you always play with that option off, then maybe we can make fewer edits to the tech tree (if we go that route) to slow end-game technology speed-ups (for instance if Jason and duck are still seeing this). Personally if I develop the space race stuff at 2150 A.D instead of 2050 A.D. - that doesn't bother me in the least.
jpinard
Martian
byrdie said:
Sounds like a good theory, but think Settler and Worker rates would need to be altered a little to offset that faster unit production rate relative to time. Let us know how your tripling option works. I think I'll try that as well.
byrdie said:
One of the appealing aspects of the game, for me anyways, has always been the decision to either go a) all out culture, gold, etc., b) go all out military, or c) have a nice balance of the two, with neither really being world dominant.
It would seem to me that keeping the train percent at half of everything else would allow you to have cake, and eat it too...it would really throw the balance of the game off. But that's just me; your mileage may vary.
jpinard
Martian
kevchod said:
Depends on if you want to focus on a military game or not. Sounds like most of these guys want a lot more units. Kind of like having Strategic Command meets Civ. Personally I think agree with you, because with too many units on the field in a large map you end up with a difficult micromanagement task.
Anyone check out dearmad's mod? http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=4093957&t=4900#post4093957 He's not modifying epic, and I like some of the changes he's implemented... but it's still too fast for my taste.
There is a file for culture levels as related to speed, that is separate from the speed file. You need to create a new catagory in that file for the new speed otherwise all levels are gained at 1 culture (or 0, not sure, 1 turn gain at any rate). I would also suggest making a new mod folder in the mods directory, just make one with a name, make an assets folder in it, copy the files you are modifying and keep all paths the same relatively and it should work.
EDIT: Wow, where did those other 4 pages come from...if this got answered sometime, forgive me.
The settler and worker rates aren't that big a problem, since cities don't grow as fast, and since workers take longer. One could probably increase improvements by simply making more workers to work on each, but I try to use as many workers as I would on default settings.
Also, improvements themselves are limited since techs unlock them. Often I find my workers have nothing to do, so I really don't worry about making a lot anyway. If you could adust only the workers and settlers, as the previous poster suggested, that would be great. It's somewhat problematic, sure, but not too bad.
Concerning the balance between culture and war, I choose war and thus keep unit rates the same, for more units and action. I just like slow city growth and cultural influence spread. Cultrual spread could be quickened with minimal impact on research, but obviously not city growth.
But to keep every tactic equally viable and competitive, then yes you should keep everything in proportion to your research increase. So increase train to 300% using my formula above. This would give you a longer game with everything in correct proportion.
But keep in mind it only means the war path is quickened; it just means I could win a domiation victory quicker than I could a cultural or space race one. Other civs can create units just as fast to defend themselves. In all aspects we are equal.
I think my personal objective in making a longer game is not just to make it longer in itself, but to have fun with the unlocked techs/units for a longer time before they become outdated. Helping to achieve this goal is to get units quicker, and I'm satisfied since the enemy can do the same.
Also, improvements themselves are limited since techs unlock them. Often I find my workers have nothing to do, so I really don't worry about making a lot anyway. If you could adust only the workers and settlers, as the previous poster suggested, that would be great. It's somewhat problematic, sure, but not too bad.
Concerning the balance between culture and war, I choose war and thus keep unit rates the same, for more units and action. I just like slow city growth and cultural influence spread. Cultrual spread could be quickened with minimal impact on research, but obviously not city growth.
But to keep every tactic equally viable and competitive, then yes you should keep everything in proportion to your research increase. So increase train to 300% using my formula above. This would give you a longer game with everything in correct proportion.
But keep in mind it only means the war path is quickened; it just means I could win a domiation victory quicker than I could a cultural or space race one. Other civs can create units just as fast to defend themselves. In all aspects we are equal.
I think my personal objective in making a longer game is not just to make it longer in itself, but to have fun with the unlocked techs/units for a longer time before they become outdated. Helping to achieve this goal is to get units quicker, and I'm satisfied since the enemy can do the same.
I think that Xeos is right, this concept should be a full-on mod, not just a way to edit one file. Dearmad had the right idea when he started from the concept of a tweak mod, and although the fact that he happened to edit the gamespeed file is what brought it to the attention of the people here, it is really just a small part of his project.
I think the best way to go about this is to design a mod which improves the game, with the focus being on more appropriate gamespeed levels. That will allow the final product a lot more breathing space, and (I think) will allow steady progress to be made consistently rather than getting mired on one or two seemingly-unsolvable points when limited to editing the one file.
I say: increase nearly everything, as has been mentioned repeatedly. Leave the iTrainPercent lower, as well as iBarbPercent. Then edit the Settler, Worker, and Fast Worker files so that their production is slowed to be on par with research and birthrate. Sure, you can limit yourself to a few workers, and sure the Settlers still depend on birthrate so they're already somewhat limited, but they're both units that have more to do with city and civilization growth than with military strength, and the whole focus of the project is to decrease the speed of the former relative to the latter. This way, once you've got a finished product, you can use it in multiplayer and maintain the overall effect (without having to limit your number of workers, and trusting that your opponents are doing the same). Likewise, compensate for the accelerated research due to more widespread improvements by editing the technologies themselves. Perhaps consider setting the iResearchPercent as high as 600, then lowering the cost of the ancient-era technologies by half (exactly the same result as if you'd set iResearch to 300), lower the cost of medievel technologies by 1/4 (so in that era it's as though you've set iResearch to 400), leave them alone in industrial, and INCREASE them by 1/3 in modern. Net effect - you have a dynamically updating iResearch value, which emulates 300%, 400%, 600%, and 800% throughout the ages. This should compensate for the widespread or even universal use of libraries etc, and keep the game's pace down even through the endgame.
Once you've done ALL of that, then you can decide how to space your year-increments. I'd suggest building the mod with a year increment of 1 and the number of turns to 10,000. Then as you're testing, you can simply make note of the year for any significant events, and subtract 4000: this gives you the turn on which that event happened. You can collect data in this way, come up with a rough number of turns to each age, and then when all else is ready for release, you can design your increments to keep pace with history.
I realize I'm new here and that I'm interrupting a lively conversation with a somewhat radically different idea. It's just that I think this could be done so much better if you allow yourself the option of making ALL the changes that need to be made. However, I can be, and often am, wrong.
I think the best way to go about this is to design a mod which improves the game, with the focus being on more appropriate gamespeed levels. That will allow the final product a lot more breathing space, and (I think) will allow steady progress to be made consistently rather than getting mired on one or two seemingly-unsolvable points when limited to editing the one file.
I say: increase nearly everything, as has been mentioned repeatedly. Leave the iTrainPercent lower, as well as iBarbPercent. Then edit the Settler, Worker, and Fast Worker files so that their production is slowed to be on par with research and birthrate. Sure, you can limit yourself to a few workers, and sure the Settlers still depend on birthrate so they're already somewhat limited, but they're both units that have more to do with city and civilization growth than with military strength, and the whole focus of the project is to decrease the speed of the former relative to the latter. This way, once you've got a finished product, you can use it in multiplayer and maintain the overall effect (without having to limit your number of workers, and trusting that your opponents are doing the same). Likewise, compensate for the accelerated research due to more widespread improvements by editing the technologies themselves. Perhaps consider setting the iResearchPercent as high as 600, then lowering the cost of the ancient-era technologies by half (exactly the same result as if you'd set iResearch to 300), lower the cost of medievel technologies by 1/4 (so in that era it's as though you've set iResearch to 400), leave them alone in industrial, and INCREASE them by 1/3 in modern. Net effect - you have a dynamically updating iResearch value, which emulates 300%, 400%, 600%, and 800% throughout the ages. This should compensate for the widespread or even universal use of libraries etc, and keep the game's pace down even through the endgame.
Once you've done ALL of that, then you can decide how to space your year-increments. I'd suggest building the mod with a year increment of 1 and the number of turns to 10,000. Then as you're testing, you can simply make note of the year for any significant events, and subtract 4000: this gives you the turn on which that event happened. You can collect data in this way, come up with a rough number of turns to each age, and then when all else is ready for release, you can design your increments to keep pace with history.
I realize I'm new here and that I'm interrupting a lively conversation with a somewhat radically different idea. It's just that I think this could be done so much better if you allow yourself the option of making ALL the changes that need to be made. However, I can be, and often am, wrong.
