[Modmodmod] RFC:Europe Extra Civs

[Morholt]

They are actually retextured rams.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Sure, go ahead. Currently I've got this:

Lombardy
UHV:
-Recreate the Lombard Kingdom at its greatest extent.
-Lombard League based, kill some number of the Emperor's troops?
-Duchy of Milan based, commerce related?

UP: Trade routes also provide some food.
UU: Undecided. Would have been condottieri but I think those are part of the new mercenary system. Carroccio is a possibility (siege weapon with Medic?) but there are no great graphics.
UB: Undecided. Someone suggested Commune as a Castle replacement but I think there are too many Castle UB's already.

You can easily go with Condottieri as Lombardy's UU
From the next version, many unique units also appear as unique merceneraries in their "native" provinces
Ie: Landshknechts in german provinces for anyone who controls them, Hungarian Huszars for civs controlling some of the main hungarian provinces, etc.
Condottieri would fit perfectly to this concept IMO

Btw, even some barbs are unique mercenaries too. Especially minor civs' special units.
We don't have Scotland as Tunisia as playable civ, but Highlanders and Corsairs appeared as special barbs. Now you can also hire them if you control those provinces.
Same for Welsh Longbowman or Beduin, etc.

 

[The Turk]

Condietteri are better for mercenaries IMO (for Northern and Central Italy), as they were not as much controlled by a state as much as they were adventure seekers for gold.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Condietteri are better for mercenaries IMO (for Northern and Central Italy), as they were not as much controlled by a state as much as they were adventure seekers for gold.

You are probably right on this
If there is a better candidate for UU, Morholt should use that of course
I'm just saying that it's not an issue either if he chooses to go with Condottieri.
As I said, many UUs will be used as UMs (unique mercenaries) too

 

[AbsintheRed]

Here's my "effortpost". There were some other ideas thrown around in the same thread, but I think these are the most relevant pre-Stockholm cities. I think it was The Turk that suggested moving Uppsala 1e from where it is in this map and making it into a village when Sweden spawns. This is more or less how I have it in RFCE++ now and it seems to work out fine.

I'm thinking about adding this as a general rule
Whenever there is a city in any civs starting position's fat cross, that city is reduced to a town. Without expections, so it wouldn't matter if it's an Indy city or the player's city
Note that respawns doesn't count, they are tied to existing cities. Only all civs initial spawns need space for them to settle.
This would solve a couple issues on spawn. No more squatting or any similar cheats.
Also this is a much better solution then what the latest RFC uses, AFAIK they just simply pre-raze every city in a 3*3 radius.

My only concerns is what happens when the to-be-reduced city is a very important one in the game, maybe even with wonders in it?
For the AI it's not an issue at all, as they follow their settler and war maps in most cases.
On the other hand, this can be a serious punishment for the human player in a few games, and means we are reducing from the freedom to achieve alternative history
I really want to hear some opinions on this, what should we follow?
Should we strictly keep all civs start clear?

EDIT: sry Morholt, wanted to quote your post to another thread...
If you would rather have this conversation elsewhere, and not to sidetrack the conversation from RFCE++, I will move it of course

 

[Morholt]

..And Alpha 5 just got released. Details in first post.

There are a few things missing such as updated UHV's for Germany and Austria, and so on but I thought it better to release now so there is some time for testing before Beta 13 hits.

 

[rrosen]

Initial impression and some possible bug reports after playing Lombardy until 1100:

It looks good! It feels nice to have a dynamic Italian peninsula early on. Neapel could be captured fairly easily with the starting units, but Ravenna (held by Byzantines in this version, which in my opinion quite accurately reflects the Byzantine involvement in the Italian peninsula) proved a tougher nut to crack. I beelined for catapults and managed to build a few. The plague hit me hard and delayed the attack. Then I got lucky and Ravenna delcared independence and then revolted, allowing an easy capture.

When Venice spawns Ravenna is reduced to a town. Quite sad, but necessary.

In order to get the first UHV, a city must be founded in Verona. However, due to the placement of Ravenna, I felt that the best spot was not Venice but Aquilea, which then became the capital of Venice instead of Venice itself.

Perhaps the dawn of man text can include some hint on how and when the Holy Roman Empire forms? In the time between the first UHV and when you can start working on the second, I felt somewhat lost on what to aim for.

When the HRE was formed and Barbarossa (Germany) got elected, I immediately declared war. As a consequence, Burgundy also declared war on me (a built in alliance), but also Germany declared war on Burgundy? That's not intended, is it?

The tracker for units destroyed never changed from zero, even though I killed humongous amounts.

A proposal came to "raise I.I.". That was hard to interpret what it meant.

So far, everyone in the HRE has voted yes for every proposal.

A vote got through setting open borders between everyone. As such, the angry Byzantine empire demanded that I canceled my deals with their enemy the Germans - which I was at war with. That felt strange.

In elections for a new HRE, I couldn't vote for myself, but others did. However, due to my votes, another candidate won.

In order to get the third UHV, it was tempting to capture cities and donate them to the other Italian states. I gave too many, and thus Venice collapsed in 1100, so I essentially lost that game.

All in all, great work!

 

[Morholt]

In order to get the first UHV, a city must be founded in Verona. However, due to the placement of Ravenna, I felt that the best spot was not Venice but Aquilea, which then became the capital of Venice instead of Venice itself.

I founded Aquilea 1n2e of Venice on my test run, which lets Venice keep its capital spot. Remember that it's in your interest to help Venice out due to UHV3.

Perhaps the dawn of man text can include some hint on how and when the Holy Roman Empire forms? In the time between the first UHV and when you can start working on the second, I felt somewhat lost on what to aim for.

The Dawn of Man texts are not in Beta 12, or do you mean the hints that show on the loading screen? Adding a few HRE hints to those seems reasonable.

When the HRE was formed and Barbarossa (Germany) got elected, I immediately declared war. As a consequence, Burgundy also declared war on me (a built in alliance), but also Germany declared war on Burgundy? That's not intended, is it?

The tracker for units destroyed never changed from zero, even though I killed humongous amounts.

These are bugs. Fixed them, thanks for the report. No hotfixes for this version as the next version is due soon anyways.

A proposal came to "raise I.I.". That was hard to interpret what it meant.

You are right that the HRE system is very poorly documented (there is an outdated .txt file in the Python folder, and that's it). I'll add a civilopedia entry + some loading screen hints for the Beta. Basically I.I., or Imperial Integrity is a multiplier that is applied to most HRE decisions. So a I.I. of 100 means maximum efficiency whereas I.I. 0 means most decisions have no effects. It's supposed to represent the gradual decline of the HRE.

So far, everyone in the HRE has voted yes for every proposal.

Another undocumented feature: in the beginning you can only agree to (Vote "Yes") or refuse ("Never!") motions. Refusing puts you at war with the Emperor, kicks you out of the Empire, and is a quite drastic move. When the Golden Bull is built, the HRE becomes a proper democracy. Pretty much the only times the AI will "Never!" a motion is when:
-It would directly harm them like forcing them to switch religion.
-They really dislike the Emperor.
-They are Lombardy.

A vote got through setting open borders between everyone. As such, the angry Byzantine empire demanded that I canceled my deals with their enemy the Germans - which I was at war with. That felt strange.

This might be a bug - being at war with the Emperor is supposed to exclude you from the Empire, and you wouldn't be affected by the open borders decision. Had another Emperor been elected? Did you have a little lightning icon next to your name?

In elections for a new HRE, I couldn't vote for myself, but others did. However, due to my votes, another candidate won.

You're not supposed to be able to vote for yourself. Do you mean others voted for themselves, or others voted for you? The AI primarily looks at relations when deciding who to vote for, if there are two candidates with equal relations, it goes by score.

In order to get the third UHV, it was tempting to capture cities and donate them to the other Italian states. I gave too many, and thus Venice collapsed in 1100, so I essentially lost that game.

Hmm, this is a bit silly. There should be a provision for if one of them collapses. Perhaps the UHV should simply be "the Italians combined should be stronger than the Habsburgs combined"?

 

[Sian]

add Holstein to Denmarks 3'd UHV, given that the duchy of Holstein was ruled by the same family which was royals in Denmark

 

[rrosen]

I didn't keep a savegame, and went on to try Bohemia. However, I don't think I was kicked out of the empire, as even though I was warring against the emperor I got to vote, and it was my votes that decided that the HRE switched from Germany to Burgundy. I was at war with both of them. It was during that vote thar Venice voted for me.

I quite like the fact that it wasn't an optimal strategy to expand like crazy and dump cities on your allies, which instead force you to think about their stability and gather other allies. I think you can influence their chance not to collapse, similar to how keeping France alive is necessary for Scottish UHV.

 

[Sian]

smack down Austria and lend aid to Codoba (or whoever is willing) to steamroll Spain ... done

 

[hoplitejoe]

The plague is really harsh at the start for Lombardy

Also this

 

[Tigranes]

Anybody seen AI using Religious Prosecutor in any meaningful way? The exciled Genova is building one without any need, it seems...

 

[Sian]

with Lombard in, i'd tweak French 1'st UHV, which is tough enough as it is without having to fight you way through a whole organized (as much as the AI can organize) country eating it whole

 

[pogo935]

Are there any tips for making the game load faster between turns?

 

[Tigranes]

How come Brandenburg is HRE: No? Their prince was one of the 7 to elect the Emperor! Also can we make it so that Ctrl+Shift Mouse over shows the boundaries of HRE without need to read is it HRE Yes or No?

 

[CrossRFC]

Is adding new civs definitely out? Now that the HRE system is in place, it becomes possible for several small nations to replace the Kingdom of Germany (which never really existed as a centralized entity) and still stand a chance against their neighbours. A whole bunch of ideas: Bavaria; Brandenburg; Hesse or Brunswick or Würzburg for that area; Saxony or Thuringia; Brabant; The Palatinate or Baden-Württemberg (which were two seperate political entities, but are too small to represent individually); finally, Switzerland. Other options: Frankfurt, Köln, Hamburg/Hansa.

EDIT: Nevermind, it clearly says no others civs will be added.

However, I do have ideas/comments that don't relate to other civs:

1. Why not add some kind of "european trade route" +5 commerce ressources, simply to add values to important straights such as the Strait of Gibraltar, the Bosphorus, Dardanelles, etc ?

2. Transylvania takes only one "s".

3. Why not have the possibility for the player to enact a union between his/her civ and a vassal state that meets the following requirements:
-has been vassal for 50 years or 25 turns, whichever is less complicated
-has the same religion
-has the same civics as the master (forces the player to either bribe the vassal to change civics, or change their own civics to match their vassals)

 

[Morholt]

Are there any tips for making the game load faster between turns?

I'll do some code cleanup during the Beta that will make it a little bit faster. Most of the slowdown comes from having all those civs, however, and there's really no helping that.

How come Brandenburg is HRE: No? Their prince was one of the 7 to elect the Emperor! Also can we make it so that Ctrl+Shift Mouse over shows the boundaries of HRE without need to read is it HRE Yes or No?

Brandenburg is HRE, in your game it might have gotten removed. When a province is held by a non-member, the Emperor might choose to remove it. Ctrl+Shift mouseover sounds like a good idea, I'll also make a HRE screen at some point.

EDIT: Also before 962, every province is HRE:No.

 

[Tigranes]

I just did not like it that HRE: No appears all over the Map, even in Thrace. If only the potential HRE provinces appear HRE No it would kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

Also would not you agree that Lombardy could have some Renaissance centered 3rd UHV, for a change? Last UHV is good for a gameplay -- to assure human player would not wipe up Venice and Genoa, but historically those Italian city were rivals, only uniting to fight the Emperor. After Emperor's death the League was dissolved. Build all the renaissance wonders would prolong the game and underscore the importance of Italy in the matters of culture, not just politics.

 

[hoplitejoe]

I don't know why I bother to post in this thread...