Modscenario: Playable Byzantines, 610AD.

[wolfigor]

T
You have to colonize/conquer for at least two of them. That's because once you trade for a resource, other civs don't see any point in giving you more of that resource. (Well, unless there is a corporation involved.) So, you need to trade for one Silk, and then you need to find a city to conquer that has another Silk (probably in Korea). You can also colonize the Philippines.

Yes, that's one of the many options.
If you succeed to bring a galley in the Indian ocean, you can load a cataphract on to it, and sail east.
Once you reach the borders of Khmer there will be a town with golden temples: you can conquer it and you'll be able to switch to free-religion.

On one side this reduce your bonuses in Europe but cut away all negative diplomacy you have with China and Khmer:
it will be easier to commerce with them, and maybe vassallise one of them.
If China agrees to become your vassal (sometime they do, especially if they are at war with Japan) then you can get all 3 silks from them.

 

[TDK]

Yes, that's one of the many options.
If you succeed to bring a galley in the Indian ocean, you can load a cataphract on to it, and sail east.
Once you reach the borders of Khmer there will be a town with golden temples: you can conquer it and you'll be able to switch to free-religion.

On one side this reduce your bonuses in Europe but cut away all negative diplomacy you have with China and Khmer:
it will be easier to commerce with them, and maybe vassallise one of them.
If China agrees to become your vassal (sometime they do, especially if they are at war with Japan) then you can get all 3 silks from them.

Wow, nice strategy.

 

[Mxzs]

I played up until turn 45 and my stability went to only -7 when it was lowest. I didn't whip much and got rid of the 2 african cities.

EDIT: I checked turn 34 and I went from +19 to +5, so a hit of 14. I noticed the Arabs became unstable between turn 33 and 34 and that might account for some of it. Have you guys noticed what is going on when it happens in your games?

Also, I whipped some temples in the 3 turns before 34, and I lost some units and that could have been bundled together, as the check(afaik) is only every 3 turns. I think these 2 things together could account for the stability hit, so I'm not sure something is wrong as such.

I went back a few turns and made notes about what happens.

Turn 30: Athens builds Workboat (no whipping). An Arab CA is wandering around Mesopotatmia. Overall stability: -1.

Turn 31: No builds. The Arab CA continues to tour Mesopotamia. Overall stability: 0 [Ecomony rises 1 to +10.]

Turn 32: The Dutch spawn. Athens builds a workboat (no whipping). A barbarian Camel Archers appears near Cairo, by a tile that holds a Cataphract and two Workers. Overall stability: -2 [Economy falls 2 to +8.] During the turn, I kill the BCA with my Cataphract. I take no damage.]

Turn 33: Cairo's borders exapand. Constantinopolis builds a forge (no whipping). The two Workers in Egypt build a quarry on the Stone. Overall stability: -1 [Expansion rises 1, from -15 to -14.]

Turn 34: Iconium builds a temple (no whipping). Three Arab Camel Archers and one Settler appear in Mesopotamia. Overall stability: -27 [Economy rose 3, and Expansion fell 1; overall stabilty should be +1. Overall hit is -28]

Arab stability never changed that I could see: it was always Stable/Shaky. I was out of contact with all other civs until Turn 34, when a Spanish scout appeared in Hungary. Spain's stability was Very Solid/Solid.

So: I build one temple, one forge, and two workboats, without whipping. (I don't whip in my games.) Some Arab and barbarian units wander nearby. I fight one battle and win it without losing even a fraction of a point. I build a quarry. This is usually the stuff that happens around turn 34 in my games. What did I do that might have caused a 28 point drop in stability, a drop that turns me from technically Stable to technically Unstable? The turns before my hit were a lot less traumatic than what you suffered, and yet my stability hit was twice as big.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Mekkah was captured around 750 or so again. So I see the Christian Cathedral goal is now 1000AD, and I barely whipped it out in time since going from Theocracy to OR has the disadvantage of spreading Judaism around. (There really should be Christianity in Jerusalem to be historically plausible--the Christian shrine doesn't have Christianity?)
I gave away Hesperides to Arabia for peace (and it promptly got captured by barbs and flipped back to me, which I disbanded), and gave Tripoli to Spain (don't care what happens to it). Mekkah I kept because I turned up the culture dial.
I'm actually stable despite Mr. Turn 34 (in vassalage of course) +3 and kept Shiraz too, and just captured Al-Dammam (and will build a city to enclose the copper and stone north of it). My future Turkish cities will be building nothing but units from now on, and Shiraz will build galleys. I have 2 great people for a GA when I need it, and hopefully I generate a great prophet next from Jerusalem.
BTW, I traded for machinery from the Russians and they are voluntary vassals now.

Spoiler :

 

[Mxzs]

So I see the Christian Cathedral goal is now 1000AD,

Wait, what?!

Sigh. I guess you want the player to whip out Temples/Cathedrals, as it is impossible to get Cathedrals by 1000AD without whipping. And I guess it doesn't make any difference to stability, since I proved above that you can be the sweetest basileus in the world and still get socked for nearly 30 stability points on turn 34.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Would have razed the 3 Asia Minor cities by giving them to a different civ, but unfortunately I can't raze them due to culture.
Got Free religion from Pagan but cost me a good bit of stability. Was able to OB with Khmer because Mongols autodeclared on them, and became my vassals. Got Hanseong with a cataphract, and bulbed Astronomy with a great artist (4 moves to go but I didn't have a worker at Hanseong so I can't destroy the plantation there already, and I needed a Silk from Japan (also OB due to Mongols)). Then a fort that was almost done in Philippines got built and I got my 3 Silks.
Gunpowder, MS and Chemistry. Traded for PP from the Russians with an arm and a leg. After MS was done all cities just built wealth.
The trick to containing the Turks is a city somewhere around Babylon (Seleucia in my game), it became the 5th most cultural city in the world even without wonders.
Built all wonders except for Univ of Sankore and Forbidden Palace (not built yet).
The inevitable collapse came, but then I became solid because I captured all my cities back. Portugal and Germany even became vassals.

All in all, a good UHV-oriented game. (Not for the domination-minded person though due to sucky stability).

Spoiler :

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Greek fire is really not very useful or complementary to the UHVs (I almost never find 2 ships in the same tile). Since Justinian is the emperor, I had suggested for RFCE the UP of Reconquest: +x stability points on conquering an independent city, until the end of the Middle Ages. In Europe that usually means Rome and Venice (which kinda represent the Exarchy of Ravenna), but with the stability problems that the Byzantines have now, it would be helpful if a city did declare independence and you're able to conquer it back. X could be anywhere from 5 to 10 points.

 

[FakeShady]

Compare the Byzantine UP with the English UP, i think its obvious something needs to be done lol. They're almost the same, both 2 promotions, but one stops after the middle ages.

I just wiki-ed something interesting:
"Logistics is considered to have originated in the military's need to supply themselves with arms, ammunition and rations as they moved from their base to a forward position. In ancient Greek, Roman and Byzantine empires, there were military officers with the title ‘Logistikas’ who were responsible for financial and supply distribution matters."

So how about power of logistikas: All units heal faster? Just another ******ed suggestion lol. It will help in conquering those silks overseas too haha.

 

[TDK]

Nice game AP. Do you think the stability hit was larger or smaller this time?

Sigh. I guess you want the player to whip out Temples/Cathedrals, as it is impossible to get Cathedrals by 1000AD without whipping. And I guess it doesn't make any difference to stability, since I proved above that you can be the sweetest basileus in the world and still get socked for nearly 30 stability points on turn 34.

The 1000AD was a mistake that I fixed now. The only thing I can think of is that it's probably a good idea to have contact and OB with the Euros which are stable and will give you stability. Other than that I really don't know and I am hoping that some of the more experiences programmers will take a look.

 

[Mxzs]

Nice game AP. Do you think the stability hit was larger or smaller this time?


The 1000AD was a mistake that I fixed now. The only thing I can think of is that it's probably a good idea to have contact and OB with the Euros which are stable and will give you stability. Other than that I really don't know and I am hoping that some of the more experiences programmers will take a look.

Whew! I could have edited the 1100 back in myself (and probably will instead of dling), but it would have felt like cheating to do so without it being in the "real" modmod.

Does constant contact with Euros make a difference to stability? I'm not sure it matters. The problem, alas, is not a lack of stability-enhancers; I always have OBs with Euro civs, for instance, and avoid ever picking up the whip. The problem is that the Turn 34 hit can be so huge (like my recent -28 hit) that even if you are moderately stable you can get socked so hard that you will lapse into Unstable and be unable to recover.

Let's see, just speculatin' here: You used the Greeks as the Byzantines, right? The Greeks spawn in the 3000BC start on turn 51, IIRC. Thirty-four turns later would be turn 85 ... Isn't that when the Romans appear? Might this hit be connected with that?

 

[TDK]

Could be I guess... Can you check it out for me? Just remove iGreece in the "stablility on spawn" from the Rome list in Consts.py

 

[Mxzs]

Oops, my mistake, it's the Persians who spawn 34 turns after the Greeks. Removing iGreece from the Roman check didn't do anything--I got a -26 hit. I'll try removing the Greeks from the Persian stability check and see if that makes a difference.

EDIT: We're talking about "#for stability hit on spawn" in Const.py, right? Chainging "[iEgypt, iGreece, iBabylonia], #Persia" to "[iEgypt, iBabylonia], #Persia"? Well, I made the edit, quit the game, fired it up again, and I still got a -25 point hit on turn 34. Followed the next turn by a 9 point hit to the Economy and a 4 point hit to Expansion. In two turns I went from +7 stability to -28. "It hurts too much to laugh, and I'm too big to cry," as someone said in a similar circumstance.

Is there maybe a key I should be holding down, just to make absolutely sure that caches are cleared and stuff like that?

BTW, AP, a quick question: How did you manage to use a GA to get Astronomy? Wouldn't you have had to have Divine Right? If so, how did you get Divine Right? Research? Espionage? Your own secret, alchemical SMCIV arts?

Also, since the game hates hates HATES to tell you which GPs can research which techs--that info is revealed, apparently, only when the GP is in a position to actually research that tech--is there someplace here at civfanatics or elsewhere with a list of which techs can be researched by which GPs? Until you mentioned it and I WBed in some GPs and techs, I had no idea that a GA could research Astronomy ...

 

[AnotherPacifist]

As soon as Russia vassalized, I switched their research to Divine Right. Even though they won't trade it, I then met Mali and since now 4 civs (Dutch and Arabia included) know it, it made my research cost low enough that Mali is willing to trade for it with code of laws, sailing, machinery and some other tech I don't remember.

Paper was my own research which was important to buff my research at 90-100% at all times. I didn't use any espionage in this game which was a mistake (could have stolen something from the Russians like paper or PP which I directed them to research).
You can easily get a GA from the Leaning Tower and Parthenon in Athens. In general, it's better to save your great people--I tried to use the artist for something else (like protection against the Turks) but I would have lost if I didn't use it for Astronomy.
As before, there is a list of preferences for GP bulbing somewhere already posted...The little education research I did at the end was due to a false prophet spawning (I wanted a great engineer for chemistry, and since I didn't get him, and I traded for PP, because knowing PP will force GEs to bulb RP or constitution first, and if you don't know PP your great artist will bulb PP first)
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/greatpeople_tech.php

Another route is to bulb or research Education with a GS, then after you've researched MS you can liberate Chemistry. In fact, it's more reliable since Alexandria will surely give you 3 GSs (I was unlucky enough to get a great merchant twice).

 

[FakeShady]

Justinian is still teh Roman leader.

 

[TDK]

Oops, my mistake, it's the Persians who spawn 34 turns after the Greeks. Removing iGreece from the Roman check didn't do anything--I got a -26 hit. I'll try removing the Greeks from the Persian stability check and see if that makes a difference.

EDIT: We're talking about "#for stability hit on spawn" in Const.py, right? Chainging "[iEgypt, iGreece, iBabylonia], #Persia" to "[iEgypt, iBabylonia], #Persia"? Well, I made the edit, quit the game, fired it up again, and I still got a -25 point hit on turn 34. Followed the next turn by a 9 point hit to the Economy and a 4 point hit to Expansion. In two turns I went from +7 stability to -28. "It hurts too much to laugh, and I'm too big to cry," as someone said in a similar circumstance.

Is there maybe a key I should be holding down, just to make absolutely sure that caches are cleared and stuff like that?

No, you can even make the changes while in-game, and they will show up in the game within half a second. Sorry, haven't had time last few days.

Justinian is still teh Roman leader.

Can you post the game? Or mail it to me?

 

[Mxzs]

Thanks much for the link, AP. If nothing else, this Byz mod has jammed home for me the lesson that GPs are useful for lots more than special buildings, fast builds, or culture bombs.

(Actually, that's one of the glories of RFC, I've found: different civs force you to explore and master different aspects of CivIV game play. I've learned so much about CivIV itself from playing Rhye's mod.)

As soon as Russia vassalized, I switched their research to Divine Right. Even though they won't trade it, I then met Mali and since now 4 civs (Dutch and Arabia included) know it, it made my research cost low enough that Mali is willing to trade for it with code of laws, sailing, machinery and some other tech I don't remember.

Paper was my own research which was important to buff my research at 90-100% at all times. I didn't use any espionage in this game which was a mistake (could have stolen something from the Russians like paper or PP which I directed them to research).
You can easily get a GA from the Leaning Tower and Parthenon in Athens. In general, it's better to save your great people--I tried to use the artist for something else (like protection against the Turks) but I would have lost if I didn't use it for Astronomy.
As before, there is a list of preferences for GP bulbing somewhere already posted...The little education research I did at the end was due to a false prophet spawning (I wanted a great engineer for chemistry, and since I didn't get him, and I traded for PP, because knowing PP will force GEs to bulb RP or constitution first, and if you don't know PP your great artist will bulb PP first)
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/greatpeople_tech.php

Another route is to bulb or research Education with a GS, then after you've researched MS you can liberate Chemistry. In fact, it's more reliable since Alexandria will surely give you 3 GSs (I was unlucky enough to get a great merchant twice).

 

[BakingTheArt]

So, reading through the thread, why is there a 3 silk requirement? You can only trade for 1, and, although I haven't read up on my history for a while, I'm pretty sure the Byzantines never conquered Korea. I think a recreation of the Justinian conquests by, say, 1000 AD would be a much better condition. 1 city in Spain, 2 in Italy, 2 in Carthage, and 2 in Egypt, and 2 in Turkey/Near East? Is that doable?

 

[Leoreth]

If you are still looking for a more useful and yet historical UP for Byzantium, these are some that come to my mind:

The Power of Themai
One of the main reason's for Justinian's military success during the early Byzantine Empire was its military organization. Emperor Herakleios divided the Empire into districts called "thema". The farmers who were allowed to settle in a thema had the duty to be militarily equipped and always ready for war. This was a lot more effective than the usual feudal drafting contemporary European states were using.
So the power would be: You can draft units in your city until the discovery of Nationalism.

The Power of Hard Currency:
With its Roman heritage, Byzantium had an highly organized minting system and provided the leading currency for the Eastern Mediterranean because of its stable percentage of silver.
We could implement this as: All your cities receive an additional trade route until the discovery of Economics.

The Power of Byzantine Diplomacy:
This is even idiomatic In essence, after the sack of Constantinople in 1204, the Empire's sophisticated diplomacy was everything that saved them from being completely wiped out. To differentiate this from the French UP, one could do:
Other civilisations accept peace or tech trades for a lower price than usual.
This would help Byzantium to avoid multi-side wars and to keep up techwise.

I hope my ideas were helpful

 

[FakeShady]

i like any of those 3 more than the current UP. But the byzantine diplomacy one looks a bit weak... dunno lol. But IMO greek fire is not really a unique power, just some invention/weapon.

 

[FakeShady]

Here's the UP from RFC Europe

"The Power of the Emperor"

While in control of Constantinople, there could be no civil war and the cities in the core (Greece) cannot declare independence.