Jurimax
Duke of Flanders
doc mabuse said:
Writing min, CoL max and Phil max
doc mabuse said:
Use the lux slider (except some isolated cases)
Monarch SG, looking for trainers and trainees
- Thread starter doc mabuse
- Start date
Writing min, CoL max and Phil max
Use the lux slider (except some isolated cases)
doc mabuse
Warlord
spotting settler factories
just found an interesting article on settler factories.
I believe we had some flood plain within reach, wich,according to the article would be the best settler factory in despotism
EDIT: should we move our first settler into desert territory and profit from cattle and flood plain?
just found an interesting article on settler factories.
I believe we had some flood plain within reach, wich,according to the article would be the best settler factory in despotism
EDIT: should we move our first settler into desert territory and profit from cattle and flood plain?
doc mabuse
Warlord
Zakharov's up
Then me
Then Jurimax
Is it each 20 turns or just the first?
Then me
Then Jurimax
Is it each 20 turns or just the first?
Jurimax
Duke of Flanders
Just the first, then 10 each
Greetz Jurimax
(BTW if anyone's interested I could post a save where I just finished a 1CC on Monarch and I won a 20K culture victory in 1836AD, that really takes trading to another dimension)
Greetz Jurimax
(BTW if anyone's interested I could post a save where I just finished a 1CC on Monarch and I won a 20K culture victory in 1836AD, that really takes trading to another dimension)
Formula51
Go Leafs Go!
Mind if I join?
soul_warrior
Termite!
@ jurimax - 1836 culture win in 1cc?
got a log? didnt think its possible.
usually i either give up or take over the world earlier.
but im working on my first culture win now - ETA 1900 or so, i hope.
and mind you - i am holding back from knocking the babs brains in by sheer willpower.
pls send me that save.
cheers,
got a log? didnt think its possible.
usually i either give up or take over the world earlier.
but im working on my first culture win now - ETA 1900 or so, i hope.
and mind you - i am holding back from knocking the babs brains in by sheer willpower.
pls send me that save.
cheers,
soul_warrior
Termite!
@ doc mabose
i stiill think that using that 2 cow city would be best in the long run - as we wont be too long in despotism.
@zakharov - what are your prefered moves? is my suggestion acceptable to you? any changes?
@ everybody. doc's point is valid. should we abandon the philo slingshot and go for monarchy? stick with it for our gains and then head towards monarchy?
i htink we should change into monarchy asap, unless all we have are incas on our isle(?) in which case - legions will do just fine, thank you very much.
IMO our next city should go south for those cows. and start pumping out settlers-workers. other cities will be barrack towns.
ok - too drunk to think anymore. goodnight guys.
i stiill think that using that 2 cow city would be best in the long run - as we wont be too long in despotism.
@zakharov - what are your prefered moves? is my suggestion acceptable to you? any changes?
@ everybody. doc's point is valid. should we abandon the philo slingshot and go for monarchy? stick with it for our gains and then head towards monarchy?
i htink we should change into monarchy asap, unless all we have are incas on our isle(?) in which case - legions will do just fine, thank you very much.
IMO our next city should go south for those cows. and start pumping out settlers-workers. other cities will be barrack towns.
ok - too drunk to think anymore. goodnight guys.
@soul_warrior, It's not a bad thing that you played your turns without discussion first. You would probably have just followed whatever you were told. This way you have the chance to learn from mistakes. After all, this is a training game and not a HoF attempt so learning from mistakes - not perfect playing - is what this game is about.
Analysing the first 20:
Firstly, as SJ Frank has stated, you should always move the worker first to see more of your surroundings. The only exception is if the starting square is the best one, in which case you will start working it immediately then move the settler.
The two options for the settler were SW or W from the start in order to get the coast (and river). Like you did I would probably have gone W because that removes the volcano from the 21 tile city radius. Volcanoes cannot be improved, so you should always avoid having them in a city radius.
SJ Frank has provided the most important lesson you can learn from the early game. Efficient use of workers is the greatest advantage a human player has over the AI. It is important to always keep the despotism penalty in mind when deciding how to improve tiles. The 'mine green, irrigate brown' rule is very useful in making the best use of tiles. Also, BG tiles should always be worked before normal grassland as they provide a free shield.
For build order, it is important to consider the map type. I believe we are playing archipelago here, so naval scouting will be needed. You were right to build the curragh as the AI will be overseas and we want to meet them asap. Personally I would have built two curraghs before a warrior, but that is my preference rather than a definite strategy.
For research, the map type is again important. With an archipelago we need to get to MM (Map Making) earlier than for example a pangaea game. This will allow us to settle other islands as the galley is the first unit with transport capability. Curraghs are useful only for exploration. This means we should go down the writing path (which soul_warrior has done
). However, the biggest priority in any game is to get out of despotism as soon as possible, so if we can use the Republic slingshot then we should, and afterwards research/trade for MM.
I'm trying to give out a lot of tips as briefly as possible here. Please feel free to ask questions if you want me to go into detail on a certain point.
Analysing the first 20:
Firstly, as SJ Frank has stated, you should always move the worker first to see more of your surroundings. The only exception is if the starting square is the best one, in which case you will start working it immediately then move the settler.
The two options for the settler were SW or W from the start in order to get the coast (and river). Like you did I would probably have gone W because that removes the volcano from the 21 tile city radius. Volcanoes cannot be improved, so you should always avoid having them in a city radius.
SJ Frank has provided the most important lesson you can learn from the early game. Efficient use of workers is the greatest advantage a human player has over the AI. It is important to always keep the despotism penalty in mind when deciding how to improve tiles. The 'mine green, irrigate brown' rule is very useful in making the best use of tiles. Also, BG tiles should always be worked before normal grassland as they provide a free shield.
For build order, it is important to consider the map type. I believe we are playing archipelago here, so naval scouting will be needed. You were right to build the curragh as the AI will be overseas and we want to meet them asap. Personally I would have built two curraghs before a warrior, but that is my preference rather than a definite strategy.
For research, the map type is again important. With an archipelago we need to get to MM (Map Making) earlier than for example a pangaea game. This will allow us to settle other islands as the galley is the first unit with transport capability. Curraghs are useful only for exploration. This means we should go down the writing path (which soul_warrior has done
). However, the biggest priority in any game is to get out of despotism as soon as possible, so if we can use the Republic slingshot then we should, and afterwards research/trade for MM.It is possible to wage wars in Republic with no problems. With careful happiness management and a solid infrastructure it is possible to play the entire game in Republic (once discovered).doc mabuse said:
I'm trying to give out a lot of tips as briefly as possible here. Please feel free to ask questions if you want me to go into detail on a certain point.
@Formula51, It's doc's game so it's his decision. What level do you usually play at?
Got it.
Looking at the save I plan to get the BG tiles mined/roaded. I think it would then be best to build a second warrior for defence, as the barb level is raging. A second curragh is also needed to explore the coatline to the S.
I have added an image with blue dots showing where I would place 3 future cities. Please comment.
I will wait until tomorrow to play to allow further discussion on how to continue. I don't want to just play my turns blindly without discussion as this game is not being played for my benefit.
ps. Regarding the possibility of the settler factory: notice that the 2 cattle are on plains. There is more than one type of factory so which will be possible in this situation?
Got it.
Looking at the save I plan to get the BG tiles mined/roaded. I think it would then be best to build a second warrior for defence, as the barb level is raging. A second curragh is also needed to explore the coatline to the S.
I have added an image with blue dots showing where I would place 3 future cities. Please comment.
I will wait until tomorrow to play to allow further discussion on how to continue. I don't want to just play my turns blindly without discussion as this game is not being played for my benefit.
ps. Regarding the possibility of the settler factory: notice that the 2 cattle are on plains. There is more than one type of factory so which will be possible in this situation?
Formula51
Go Leafs Go!
I usually play Monarch-Emperor.
Jurimax
Duke of Flanders
Pottery: needed for a Settler pump (here most likely Warrior-Settler)
Ceremonial Burial: might be useful if we don't find any lux
As to the dotmap:
near cow, OK
near flood plains, OK
on hill, why there?
And here is the save (as per request) of my 1CC 20k Culture victory (Monarch)
Ceremonial Burial: might be useful if we don't find any lux
As to the dotmap:
near cow, OK
near flood plains, OK
on hill, why there?
And here is the save (as per request) of my 1CC 20k Culture victory (Monarch)
Formula51
Go Leafs Go!
I would think that it would be a fishing village, plus grabbing any resources on hills/mountains.Jurimax said:
PS: cattle irrigated are 3f 2s, so one more surplus food + 2 more shields = 6 turn settler?
Jurimax
Duke of Flanders
Now I see that it is coastal (hadn't noticed it), but still, a fishing village? I think it will be able to use the second cow after the other city is built (note to self, look close at maps before making silly remarks)
Greetz Jurimax
Greetz Jurimax
SJ Frank
Spamalot Co-court
@Zakharov:
I like the original red dot better, because it also gets those floodplains, for potentially +5 food per turn (+1 for each irrigated cow, and +1 for working 1 flood plain). Because of corruption, that city may need to go to size 5-to-7 in order to make a 4-turn settler factory. The best thing that can happen to it is if chopping down the forrest N of the cow revels a BG. Try to time the chop to help the granary.
On a separate note, the southern most blue dot in your dot map is in a bad spot. Why? Take a look at the surroundings. Does it have more food or more shield? It's likely this a city in this area is going to need all the food it can get.
On a still completely seperate note, on the tech trading front. How do you think the Incans got all of those techs 10 turns into the game. From 3 lucky huts? Not likely. They probably know someone already, and traded with them. If you trade with them right now, you are buying a monopoly price, which is double the normal price. If you wait until you have contacted the other civ yourself, you can sell alphabet to both of those civs and get proabaly all 5 techs.
Another question is, when do you need a particular tech. Do you need to build a temple right now? Or a granary right now? Well, a granary is more urgent, but even that's still more than 10 turns into the future. One of the great advice that I picked up from great players here is "what can wait, should wait". Let's hold on to that alphabet monopoly for as long as possible. You can always check the AI's once in a while to see if they are searching it.
@Jurimax:
Happiness is bad reason for building the temple. For the Romans, a temple costs 60 shields, while a warrior costs 10 shields to do the same job, and fights barbarians as well.
I like the original red dot better, because it also gets those floodplains, for potentially +5 food per turn (+1 for each irrigated cow, and +1 for working 1 flood plain). Because of corruption, that city may need to go to size 5-to-7 in order to make a 4-turn settler factory. The best thing that can happen to it is if chopping down the forrest N of the cow revels a BG. Try to time the chop to help the granary.
On a separate note, the southern most blue dot in your dot map is in a bad spot. Why? Take a look at the surroundings. Does it have more food or more shield? It's likely this a city in this area is going to need all the food it can get.
On a still completely seperate note, on the tech trading front. How do you think the Incans got all of those techs 10 turns into the game. From 3 lucky huts? Not likely. They probably know someone already, and traded with them. If you trade with them right now, you are buying a monopoly price, which is double the normal price. If you wait until you have contacted the other civ yourself, you can sell alphabet to both of those civs and get proabaly all 5 techs.
Another question is, when do you need a particular tech. Do you need to build a temple right now? Or a granary right now? Well, a granary is more urgent, but even that's still more than 10 turns into the future. One of the great advice that I picked up from great players here is "what can wait, should wait". Let's hold on to that alphabet monopoly for as long as possible. You can always check the AI's once in a while to see if they are searching it.
@Jurimax:
Happiness is bad reason for building the temple. For the Romans, a temple costs 60 shields, while a warrior costs 10 shields to do the same job, and fights barbarians as well.
If you want a settler factory at the red dot, you need a border expansion to catch the floodplain. How do you manage to do that without a temple? Anyway, by the time we have that city up to size 5-7 for a settler factory with the floodplain, we will be in a republic. In that case one irrigated cow and the other mined will provide +5 food without the need for the floodplain, as the despotism penalty will be lifted.SJ Frank said:
My NE blue dot allows the second city to get extra commerce from the river tiles, though I'm not trying to convince the team this is the best site, just offering alternatives.
I disagree. This city isn't meant to grow to size 20. It has 3 floodplains around it, so can easily sustain a size 10 city. doc mabuse has stated that he wants to play a game with lots of warring. With that in mind I have drawn a dot map with close city spacing with the intention of having a lot of medium sized cities as opposed to a few large ones, but if the team decide to go a different direction then that's fine.SJ Frank said:
Or if you wait until you find the other civ they have time to research alphabet themselves/trade for it with a 3rd civ, which could leave you stuck with nothing to trade. It's a gamble. We could find the other civ next turn, it may take 20. Personally I prefer to get the techs while they are on offer but again, if the team want to wait then I will go along with it.SJ Frank said:
Fully agreed here, and also the luxury slider should be used before building a temple for happiness. However, temples are useful as the only source of culture before libraries become available.SJ Frank said:
Finally, the western blue dot is indeed meant to be a fishing village, though it does have a few useful tiles around it.
doc mabuse
Warlord
I'm inclined to go with Zakharov, concerning first blue spot. It's still next to river, it's one turn earlier and could turn out to be a settler fact. Should we chop the forrest (maybe its a BG)?
Maybe we should acquire some more warriors to scout the area. But the question is what first?
When do we start building workers?
My God, i never even remotely thought this game was so in depth, no wonder i couldn't handle warlord, i play like a gambling madman. It's exciting though!
Here's one i'm going to do, i'm downloading the save and playing it but not as my turn, just to see what i'm doing wrong.
I'm also inclined to wait a bit for trading alphabet, cause this map is standard archipelago, 70% water, so I think it is not going to be that big...
But in that case, shouldn't we focus on dominating the island? I guess we're already taking steps in that direction.
Concerning tech research our aim should be republic, iron working, map making?
@formula51 you can join, welcome
the roster
Soul Warrior posted save
Zakharov's up
Doc mabuse on deck
Jurimax
Formula51
Maybe we should acquire some more warriors to scout the area. But the question is what first?
When do we start building workers?
My God, i never even remotely thought this game was so in depth, no wonder i couldn't handle warlord, i play like a gambling madman. It's exciting though!
Here's one i'm going to do, i'm downloading the save and playing it but not as my turn, just to see what i'm doing wrong.
I'm also inclined to wait a bit for trading alphabet, cause this map is standard archipelago, 70% water, so I think it is not going to be that big...
But in that case, shouldn't we focus on dominating the island? I guess we're already taking steps in that direction.
Concerning tech research our aim should be republic, iron working, map making?
@formula51 you can join, welcome
the roster
Soul Warrior posted save
Zakharov's up
Doc mabuse on deck
Jurimax
Formula51
doc mabuse
Warlord
Played it but will wait to post log untill Zakharov posted his
This is definitely a good idea for you to do. Sometimes when I read turnlogs I don't fully take in what has happened, but by playing along and comparing you will find it much easier to spot how you can improve.doc mabuse said:
I will play now.
3000(0)- Now that Rome is size 2, the science rate can be dropped to 10% for minimum research. In this case it makes no difference to our income, we are still getting +5gpt.
I will wait on the trade.
2950(1)- Curragh and warrior continue to explore.
2900(2)- Worker moves to BG.
2850(3)- Worker begins to road BG.
2800(4)- zzz
2750(5)- Only 1 shield required for settler, so I switch from unimproved BG to a roaded grassland for extra commerce.
IBT- Rome builds Settler > Warrior in 5 turns (intended for defence from barbs).
2710(6)- Worker completes BG road and begins mining it. Rome is using this tile (2f/1s/2c).
2670(7)- zzz
2630(8)- Veii is founded and uses the cattle tile (2f/2s). Building a warrior in 5 turns.
Our curragh spots the Incan borders (purple).
2590(9)- zzz
2550(10)- Our warrior comes to the end of a peninsula. I followed it hoping it was a land bridge. He will have to turn back N.
Notes:
The Incan city our curragh found is the capital, as the borders are expanded.
We have 135g in the treasury, gaining +6gpt. Writing will be discovered in 22 turns at 10% science rate.
Rome and Veii will build warriors in 1 and 3 turns respectively. What should be next?
Where should the worker go when it has finished mining the BG?
On the tech front nothing has changed. We are yet to meet a third civ and we can still make the same trade as I suggested 10 turns earlier.
(This tells us the Incans are not researching Alphabet).
Roster:
Doc mabuse - up next
Jurimax - on deck
Formula51
Soul Warrior
Zakharov - just played
Here is the save and an image of our two cities:
I will wait on the trade.
2950(1)- Curragh and warrior continue to explore.
2900(2)- Worker moves to BG.
2850(3)- Worker begins to road BG.
2800(4)- zzz
2750(5)- Only 1 shield required for settler, so I switch from unimproved BG to a roaded grassland for extra commerce.
IBT- Rome builds Settler > Warrior in 5 turns (intended for defence from barbs).
2710(6)- Worker completes BG road and begins mining it. Rome is using this tile (2f/1s/2c).
2670(7)- zzz
2630(8)- Veii is founded and uses the cattle tile (2f/2s). Building a warrior in 5 turns.
Our curragh spots the Incan borders (purple).
2590(9)- zzz
2550(10)- Our warrior comes to the end of a peninsula. I followed it hoping it was a land bridge. He will have to turn back N.
Notes:
The Incan city our curragh found is the capital, as the borders are expanded.
We have 135g in the treasury, gaining +6gpt. Writing will be discovered in 22 turns at 10% science rate.
Rome and Veii will build warriors in 1 and 3 turns respectively. What should be next?
Where should the worker go when it has finished mining the BG?
On the tech front nothing has changed. We are yet to meet a third civ and we can still make the same trade as I suggested 10 turns earlier.
(This tells us the Incans are not researching Alphabet).
Roster:
Doc mabuse - up next
Jurimax - on deck
Formula51
Soul Warrior
Zakharov - just played
Here is the save and an image of our two cities:
