Monarch SG, looking for trainers and trainees

[doc mabuse]

Ok, seem to have lost my logbook.
Can someone tell me how to save the notes on notebook and post them here b4 it happens again?
But it was pretty much the same

 

[doc mabuse]

Preturn notes: i think Rome should build another Curragh and warrior, then worker
The worker should build road to Veii and start roading/mining the cow

IBT inca scout S

2510 Rome builds warrior, i'm doubting: it takes 8 turns to build curragh, so decide for another warrior
instead (5 turns)
Fortify warrior in Rome, the other warrior N, still no sign of other civ, i'm beginning to doubt if
there actually is another civ on this isle, it might be another
2470 my doubt has been lightened: our worker finished the mine and we now have an extra shield, which
makes the curragh in 4 turns
worker S
2430 Veii builds warrior. what shall i do with him and more important, what to build next? I decided on
another warrior, so that Rome can start on worker and then maybe settler. Is this just a feeling or
r things really going slow?
Im going SW with the warrior since it is uncharted territory
worker starts roading tile N of Veii
I knew it!! our curragh found the beginnings of another isle
2390 Curragh starts exploring new isle
warrior 1 finds plains with wheat not so far from Veii
2350 warrior 1 finds plains with sugar also, could be good spot for city
curragh spots incense and whale
2310 Rome builds curragh. i've been thinking: it's another 10 to get to size 3 so in that light i
decide for barracks which is 5 turns
worker builds road and moves to cow
warrior 1 spots game and gems, this is rich soil, but also another inca city
2270 Veii builds warrior and i go for settler in 10 turns, we have to get more cities!!!
worker starts road and will then irrigate instead of mining, sorry
newly build warrior fortifies in Veii
Warrior 1 sees Tiwanaku and yet another inca town!
im gonna see what the score is: they still offer only BW and 2 gold for Alpha? How come they still
don't have any cash?
Im getting a nasty feeling from the curragh: it sees land heading back towards our isle.I thought
i put archipelago on and not continents or panganea...
2230 nothing special
2190 nothing special, except i see the growth in Veii takes 10, the settler 9
2150 worker starts to irrigate, he'll be ready in 4 turns
our second curragh spots another land tile!

That's it. I tried the inca again, they still won't budge. Writing is still 12 up and Rome builds

barracks next turn. i'll try and make a dot pic

the roster
Jurimax's up
Formula51 on deck
Soul Warrior
Zakharov
Doc Mabuse

 

[Formula51]

Screenie?

Good turns , I can't look at the save now, so I can't comment in depth.

Anyway, even if a curragh takes 8 turns to build, contacts are way important for getting tech parity, unless we have very few warriors exploring. If we can irrigate those cows at Veii, then we could get a 6 turn settler factory going.

 

[soul_warrior]

@ doc mabuse.
good turns allround. building those barracks now will probably cost us a bit, but we will need it very soon i think. i dont like the way those incas keep popping up.
about tech path - i think we should go REP > MM > IRON.

@ everybody - if we have any serious threats soon, we can always use an archer stack. but generally, my opinion is for delaying war, focousing on expansion now, with minimal army. building warriors now for future upgrade makes sense to me.
if we are alone on this island? then we can pointy stick our research from the incas.

about tech trades - maybe we should wait a little bit longer? check each turn and we might lose some cash but not the whole deal.

about building priorities - im for a warrior > settler\worker in rome. veii should start pre-build on granary, as we will get POT soon (we can trade for it, remeber?), after granary is finished make it a 6 turn pump (for those warriors)

i will check that last save later when i get home for further indepth checks.

regarding city density - i agree with zakharov. since we plan on a war heavy game we should be able to: A) build lots of legions fast, B) allow for lots of unit support. since legions are not that expensive, we should build as many cities as possible. maybe go for something like a CxxxC placement principle? it would be tough with all these mountains, but as a guideline.

@ doc m - about that log mishap you had? i can only recomemd my method. go lo-tech and use a pen\paper combo that way help me a lot. i get a break in between turns, which i use for pondering my next moves. and i have a hard copy i can type from.

 

[Zakharov]

Is this just a feeling or r things really going slow?

This tends to happen in SGs as you are writing everything down, so 10 SG turns take longer than 10 solo turns. Also we are playing Monarch, so the AI is developing much quicker than you will be used to at chieftain level. This gives the illusion that we are going much slower.

How come they still don't have any cash?

The AI tends not to stockpile gold, so they will run the research rate to give them a net 0gpt. However, you will notice them gaining 25g at a time when they start dispersing barb camps.

...we have to get more cities

A very good philosophy to have at any difficulty level.

Im getting a nasty feeling from the curragh: it sees land heading back towards our isle.I thought i put archipelago on and not continents or panganea

Looks to me like a separate island, although very close to ours.

Other comments on your turns:

Veii should have built a military unit before a settler. You should always keep in mind that a city must be size 3 before it can produce a settler, else it has to sit at 30 shields waiting for the city to grow. In this case it only has 9 shields, so I would recommend it is changed to a worker which only requires 1 pop.

You were correct to irrigate the cattle tile. Mining it has no effect at the moment due to the despotism penalty. Also, Veii currently needs food more than it needs shields. Growth is the key to the early game.

The second BG near Rome should be mined/roaded asap.

The barracks is a good choice when you consider we have raging barbs and very aggressive AI. It does cost 1gpt though, so make sure it gets used. Pump out some veteran units.

@ everybody - if we have any serious threats soon, we can always use an archer stack. but generally, my opinion is for delaying war, focousing on expansion now, with minimal army. building warriors now for future upgrade makes sense to me.

It does seem that we are alone with the Incans, so I agree that we should concentrate on expansion for now.

EDIT: Here are two suggestions for our next city. Of the two I prefer number 2. Opinions please.

 

[Jurimax]

Got it, will play tonight (after reading thru the last posts)

Greetz Jurimax

 

[soul_warrior]

@ zakharov - i agree with you in prefering city location 2. it is near water, has both cow and game and has gems. it also has some elbow room for later growth.

maybe another city should go 1 NE of that warrior? it will be close to those inca, but if we use it as a jump point for our war? but ofcourse this is just a thought since it will probably (inca city) going to expand there
another location could be 1 E of that game, below lake?

 

[Zakharov]

it is near water, has both cow and game and has gems. it also has some elbow room for later growth.

When you say cow do you mean sugar? The main reason for that spot is to secure the gems before the Incans get there.

 

[doc mabuse]

Location 2 is definitely the best choice.
If we get some more cities close to the inca the danger of culture flipping gets bigger, so I would choose to fall back one tile or two.
Don't forget we are on archipelago, so we should get some coastal cities ASAP

 

[Zakharov]

Culture flipping only becomes a risk if an Incan border encroaches into the 21 tile radius of one of our cities, OR if there are foreign citizens in one of our towns.

Position 2 is not in danger of a culture flip.

 

[soul_warrior]

@ zakharov - yes, i meant sugar, but seeing double after a long workday

 

[doc mabuse]

I'm gonna go for another pseudo turn
I'll try to keep the logbook save this time and post after jurimax posted his

 

[Jurimax]

Okay some preturn remarks:

- we have 2 cities and yet we are building barracks?
--> my suggestions:
build city near gems to block Inca access to lower part of our lands
build more settlers asap to fill in our lands
- Rome is working unimproved tile (BG) because we're short on workers
--> my suggestions:
change Rome to Settler
change Veii to Worker
- the price the Inca give us for Alphabet is very low, what does this mean?
--> They're researching it themselves:
trade for something while we can
Also, if we give them 176g we can get either Pot or CerBur

Just my thoughts

Greetz Jurimax

 

[Zakharov]

- the price the Inca give us for Alphabet is very low, what does this mean?
--> They're researching it themselves:

I don't think they are. The trade I proposed 20 turns ago is the same trade they will make now. This means that Alphabet is equally valuable over those 20 turns, so they are not researching it. It is my understanding that researching a tech causes its trade value to decrease.

For example, I have on may occasions bought a tech for just a few gold a couple of turns before finishing research on it, but it would have cost me a lot more when I began research. Also, I have tried to sell techs to the AI but they only offer say 2g in return. If I refuse then they always have the tech a few turns later. This suggests that partial knowledge of a tech affects its trade value, but I'm not 100% certain. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I think the reason the Inca give us a low price for Alphabet is because this is Monarch level, so the AI trade rate is 140%. Therefore Alphabet is worth 71% (1/1.4) of what it would would be if another AI civ sold it to the Incans.

EDIT: Another thought, it is unwise to change Rome to a settler now. It would complete in 4 turns but Rome doesn't grow to size 3 for 6 turns yet. If you insist we should change from barracks, then build an archer first and a settler after that.

 

[doc mabuse]

I was going to keep the settler as well because the cow tile will be irrigated in 4 turns and thus make Veiii size 3

 

[Jurimax]

@Zakharov:
I didn't know how much they offered x turns ago, but anyway it's still too little they're willing to offer, UNLESS they know someone else who also knows Alph and indeed a tech will loose its value once the other party starts research on it.
I agree that changing Rome now will loose some shields, but that's when MM comes into play, we can make Rome grow and produce the Settler at the same time and make some extra commerce

@doc m:
Sorry but I didn't look at when the irrigation will be finished, there you're absolutely right

Greetz Jurimax

 

[Formula51]

I play after Jurimax, right?

 

[Jurimax]

Yes you do, but I'm still awaiting some more input here, after all this is a training game, so I'd like to hear everybody's remarks.

Greetz Jurimax

 

[Zakharov]

I agree that changing Rome now will loose some shields, but that's when MM comes into play, we can make Rome grow and produce the Settler at the same time and make some extra commerce

Rome will grow in 6 turns minimum. If you move the BG tile to a roaded grassland tile it would indeed give extra commerce, but the settler would still finish in 5 - one turn early. If the BG is mined and roaded then there would be no need for MMing as the best tiles would be used.

I still like the barracks, as it can be used to produce vet defenders to accompany the settlers. This will also allow Rome more time to grow, as it is not a good idea to reduce a city to size 1 when building a settler. It is more efficient in the long term to allow it to grow to size 4 before producing a settler as the city will still be useful at size 2. For this reason I still think the settler in Veii should be switched to a worker.

 

[soul_warrior]

like zakharov said
I still like the barracks, as it can be used to produce vet defenders to accompany the settlers. This will also allow Rome more time to grow, as it is not a good idea to reduce a city to size 1 when building a settler. It is more efficient in the long term to allow it to grow to size 4 before producing a settler as the city will still be useful at size 2. For this reason I still think the settler in Veii should be switched to a worker.[/QUOTE]
i totally agree with him. we want bigger, more productive cities. the only way to get there is - wait... i think we should accept that 1 turn loss, and then go settler > vet archers? vet warriors? still having problems deciding which way i like best
and about trading ALPHA. if the price is really what it was 20 turns ago, then i agree, the inca are NOT researching it and we still dont want them to get it.
if they start shipping around meeting others, that would reflect badly upon us.
what i am inclined to do is buy POT asap. those grannaries will be handy.

productionwise - i think rome should keep barracks, put out a vet unit, settler and then granary. VEII should go worker, granary, settler pump.

and on a final note - block those incas from gems and our flank. that city should build warrior/barrcks (depending on sheild output), worker, and then unit pump. maybe use sugar as 6 turn settler pump? (can we, anyway?)

on the strategic level - i think we should start mobilizing a bit. get us atleast one vet unit pump, and start massing those units out of inca sight (that will be our little surprise).
we want to decide which will our be goals in the first imminent inca wars. do we want to take them out? that will mean a later, heavier unit number war, or just weaken them (taking 2-3 cities, all their techs, etc). anyhow, i think we should wait until we are certain we are alone with them on this island (which shouldnt be too long now)

how about some more curraghs? i can never have enough of those. and we can always upgrade those later into galleys.

cities should go in a more southernly direction, with an eastward push. we want to deny access to the inca to as much land as possible.