[BTS] Monarch Shadow Game

[soundjata]

Nowadays a lot of active players seem to be advocating the use of cottages in most openings.

Sure in isolation the cottage approach is kinda obvious (few happies => limited growth potential ; no trade route => no free commerce in cities)

However, in a Pangea kind of game I sometimes follow master Duckweed advice and go with farms, including in the capitol.
- (minus) uses more worker turn.
- (minus) loses commerce at an exponential rate (1 initially after the 1st cottage is done ; and maybe 50 in your bureaucracy capitol around 1AD...)
+ (plus) grow faster, work more tiles, reach happy cap, generate more .

Duckweed once illustrated this (but I can't find the post) by comparing the state of his farmed capitol (always at happycap) to the cottaged version of Gkey's (or Dirk's ? ). The latter version is always a few pop below happy cap.
This was during a crazy deity warfest game ; a pangea map filled with your usual Shaka / Ragnar / Genghis... Not the typical cuirstomp I reckon.
Sure commerce is useful and can be nicely converted into science (yay academy )
However when going through the late renaissance era and on the verge of industrialization how are you gonna produce ?

Spoiler A few references :

Yes, cottages >>> specialists in deity isolated map.

If you adopt representation, all of your cities are capped at low size. However, your major task is to setup a strong foundation of your empire, therefore, focus on decision that win in the long term.

If you have read some of my games, you can easily find that I am among the few players who always lay down more farms than cottages, even in capital. But Pacal II is financial and I can not totally ignore this, so I make a balance and keep the rule of thumb -- fast city growth should always be considered 1st. Cottage is overrated!

Spoiler :

I always get impatient for the game in the later stage. Although I mostly go for domination route, I already made up my mind in turn 100 save.

See, another example that production is never enough, and commerce is more than enough without cottage spam in capital.

BTW, I actually have 3 spies ready to switch WK to CS. But I knew I had enough votes already.

PS: Your game speed is amazing slow. I am shamed of my playing speed, but getting proud after looking at your save.

 

[lymond]

Honestly, I don't think those types of post help in these types of threads, soundjata. It's certainly worth a separate discussion...one that not really been had much in quite some time. However, only serves to confuse and bewilder a less experienced players trying to learn basic concepts, when you bring up advanced concepts and hypothetical situations that the OP is far from considering at this stage. Duck was a fantastic player - one of the best - and had some unique and advanced strategies based on years of playing. I think one of his central strategies was built around Hereditary Rule and growing large and productive cities - he was quite successful with it.

edit ..appears you just started a thread on the topic ..ha

 

[SaintSaens_Op61]

Ok, I restarted and tried to pay more attention to worker turns, whipping/population management, and spawnbusting.

 

[sampsa]

I don't want to confuse the thread even more, but even if I think Duckweed was a brilliant player, it's exactly that kind of statements that held back my progress. I think it's very important to learn how to use cottages effectively. Maybe after that you can start learning how you don't even need them if you are good enough.

 

[coanda]

The scouting is certainly better on the second run. You've got much better information about the region right around your capital where you might want to settle new cities. Deer, pigs, and corn in the northern area gives a lot more potential for settling up there.

Your spawnbusting positioning could be adjusted to get a bit better coverage. Remember, barbarians won't spawn anywhere that is in vision and also not anywhere within a 5x5 box centered around other units.

Think about your city's happiness limits. Your gold is connected; there are no other easily accessible happiness resources. The next point of happiness is likely to come from either religious spread into your borders (chancy, could take a while), hooking up that fur to the northeast (distant, will probably take a while), or discovering Monarchy or Calendar (distant, will probably take a while). There's no particular reason to think that, at any point in the next 20-30 turns, your happiness cap is certain or even extremely likely to increase.

Your capital can work 5 tiles, and your other cities can work 4. And with hopefully 2-pop whips, you won't even be able to work all of those tiles all the time. Cuzco's got 4 excellent tiles, Tiwanaku has 3. Stop making those cottages and put the workers on forest-chopping duty. You need settlers! It would probably be a good exercise to play the next few turns multiple times in a row, see how quickly you can get to 6 cities from the current position without whipping cities into the ground.

 

[SaintSaens_Op61]

Remember, barbarians won't spawn anywhere that is in vision and also not anywhere within a 5x5 box centered around other units.

I have been wondering about this for a while. Barbarians will not spawn anywhere in the 5x5 tiles around a unit, even if not all of those tiles are visible?

Spoiler City Placement :

I think that I'll build my fourth city next to this corn. The two options that look the best to me are the plains either 1NE or the 1SE of the corn. If I settle on one of these tiles, then the corn will immediately be in the city's radius and I won't be settling on grassland. I'm leaning towards the plains 1SE, because all of the tiles would be workable. There would be one desert in the city's radius if I settled 1NE. Does this thought process make sense, or is there somewhere else that I should settle to get the corn?

Also, how good are oasis tiles? They look good at first, but I don't know of any improvement that can be built on them.

Spoiler Open Borders :

I now have met five other civilizations. I have writing, so I can trade open borders with anyone. So far, Sitting Bull has been the first AI to ask for open borders (maybe he's the first AI to research writing?). What are the advantages/disadvantages of open borders right now?

 

[coanda]

Barbarian spawns pick a location that is not visible, not within 2 steps of any other unit, and borders a land tile (so they won't spawn deep at sea). Which mean each spawnbusting unit blocks out a 5x5 box in which no barbs can be generated.

When you're settling an early city, it's pretty much meaningless how good it will be as a size-20 city. That's so far off in the future that even a tiny advantage in the short-term outweighs any late-game difference. You're mostly concerned with how good it will be at size 1-5, with a bit of thought for it at size 6-8 or so. 1NE of the corn is much better than 1 SE of the corn. Having 19 theoretically workable tiles, rather than 20, doesn't matter. That city isn't going to be size 19 or size 20 for hundreds of turns. But at, say, size 4, 1NE can work a couple floodplains that 1SE can't.

I'm not sure I'd target that corn at all as city #4, personally, for the same reason. There are other potential city sites that will be stronger at size 4 or 5 than anywhere around that corn, even if they don't have quite the same super-long-term potential.

Oasis tiles can't be improved. They're not amazing tiles, but they're decent; 3F 3C. One of the nice benefits of them is that they require no worker turns to get to that state, so you can spend that worker time somewhere else (like chopping down a forest) instead.

There's almost no reason not to do open borders trades with AIs. It means if you are connected to the same trade network (e.g., if you share a coastline and you have Sailing) your cities can get foreign trade routes to theirs, which are more valuable. They help build good relations with the AI, making them less likely to attack you and more likely to agree to some types of trade in the future. It also allows them to scout your lands and you to scout their lands, which is a net benefit to the human player who can use the information better. And it allows settlers to pass through territory on the way to founding cities, but the AI are explicitly programmed not to take advantage of that - so it's something you might occasionally do as a human. It also increases the chances of you getting religious spread to or from them. The only potential problem with open borders is that occasionally it leads to demands that you "stop trading with our worst enemy" from other AIs, which can be a positive or a negative depending on the overall game situation. But 95% of the time that's not something to even think about; just sign open borders.

 

[lymond]

Yep, you will general open borders with most, if not all AIs, immediately upon teching Writing. (or in the case if an AI hits Writing first..keep an eye on that) There's so much land here - with this large map - that it may take a bit of time to connect trade routes, but at least you start the diplo boost which hits +2 for OB eventually. But foreign trade routes are something you want access to as soon as possible for an important boost to commerce.

One thing with OB to be aware of is Worst Enemy status among the AIs. Based on Peace Weights and likely Religion, some AIs may really dislike others. At this level I'd not be too worried about that, but diplo gets really important as you move up levels. The point here is that you may choose not to OB with a particular leader if they are quite hated - and that does happen. But again, you will generally OB with anyone you can asap. Note: WE status can change as well, so keep an eye that every few turns.

 

[SaintSaens_Op61]

I was exploring near Cyrus, and I found a settler and an archer. Should I attack them, or would two wars be too much right now?

Spoiler :

 

[Zavior]

I was exploring near Cyrus, and I found a settler and an archer. Should I attack them, or would two wars be too much right now?

What would you have to gain?
What would be the repercussions?

 

[SaintSaens_Op61]

What would you have to gain?

I would prevent Cyrus from building a city, and I would prevent him from acquiring the copper resource.

What would be the repercussions?

I don't know how many cities Cyrus has, and I don't know if he has horses, copper, or iron somewhere that I can't see. So there potentially could be no repercussions, but potentially Cyrus could build axemen or chariots.

 

[lymond]

Well, he already has the copper in his borders. The main purpose would be to grab a new worker if one were to attack.

Note that the AI will tell you what their best unit is in one of their quotes on the dialogue screen. It's a random quote so you may have to click on the leader a few times. I use the escape button to quickly exit and click on leader again until I get the right message.

I would not be surprised if he had something hooked up at this point.

 

[scheines]

Unless they step to the boundaries of their border, the settler can outmaneuver your Quecha. I'd pass here. Also, you're currently in war with Alexander; making 2 enemies early might not be wise.

I don't know how many cities Cyrus has.

BUG lets you see this on the scoreboard, among other enhancements. I recommend you try it out. It makes available many mechanics that are otherwise hidden to the player. Being able to see when an AI is plotting makes a huge difference in gameplay.

 

[Lennier]

And without BUG, you can open up the trade screen and scroll down to the list of cities (probably all non-demandable), count them up, and add one (for the capitol which won’t be listed.)

 

[SaintSaens_Op61]

I played to turn 62. I have one settler this turn, and I'll have another one next turn. Which food sources (corn to the SW, pigs to the SE, pigs to the NE) should I settle first?

Spoiler Scouting around the pigs to the SE :

Where would you settle here? One option that I see is the jungle 2S1W of the pigs. Is it worth settling on the hills 1NW of the fish? There are lots of plains and mountains there.

Spoiler Pigs to the NE :

Settling in the blue circle would put the pigs immediately in the city radius, but what about 2E of the pigs?

 

[coanda]

Your general evaluation is good, although I'm going to re-emphasize thinking short-term/fast; handful of good tiles and something to do without a border pop. Don't spend a second worrying about what the city will be like at size-20 with every possible tile worked; that's so far in the future to not be worth even considering.

The plainshill + fish + horse city site is good vision from you. Not the most urgent priority for your very next settler, but definitely a spot you'll want at some point. You could potentially do something like fish + horse + 2 scientist specialists there and it would more than pay for itself.

1S1W of south pigs is better than 2S1W because it doesn't need the border pop for pigs.

1E of the north pigs is an excellent spot. 2E is slower, not as immediately useful. It'd get you the fur earlier for an extra point of happiness, but you're going to want to be whipping and settling new cities rapidly for a while yet. You've got enough happiness for now.

 

[scheines]

North pigs:
2E of the north pig is a hard pass for me: food should be in the inner ring. If it’s not, you’re either creative, or settling it for a key resource (copper, stone, etc). Neither applies here so food should be inner ring.

I might even consider 1N1E would be better, as you’ll claim the deer in your inner ring. You could also go 1S1E so you could settle another city 1E of deer. I might be partial to the latter.

South pigs:
Same story, food has no reason not to be in the inner ring here. I'd go 1S so you can use all the 2F tiles around it. The plains hill to the east is great too; don't want to ruin that spot.

All in all, I'd settle the north pigs first. The corn is pretty far away and doesn't offer anything extra. This site also claims land from Alex, who you can block off somewhat.

 

[SaintSaens_Op61]

I played to turn 75 (1000 BC).

I now have six seven cities, two north and four south of Cuszco (whoops!). What should I do next? Should I focus on building more cities, capturing Athens, or something else?

 

[coanda]

Now that is a solid foundation for an empire. 7 good strong cities (it is 7, not 6, incidentally).

A few thoughts glancing over the save...

• It'd be good to get a couple scientist specialists running in a city soonish, so you could start working on generating a great scientist or two. It doesn't necessarily have to be an amazing city otherwise; even a size-3 city with just one good food tile and a couple scientists works. Macchu Picchu is a good option for that. Let it finish that library build, grow up to size-5, work a floodplains, wheat, copper, and two scientists.
• You urgently need more workers. It's good that you expanded, but now you've got 7 cities and 4 workers. That's maybe half as many workers as you need. Ideally someone should be farming the corn near Vilcas. One or two workers should be chopping those forests around Cuzco. Someone should be chopping that granary for Ollantaytambo so you can get a border pop to hook up the deer. Someone should be chopping the granary for Corihuayrachina.
• You also could use a couple more chariots (or axes, or Quechua, but I'd go chariots) to bust barb spawns and defend against any who happen to wander by.
• Which, in turn, means that it probably time to take a brief breather from general expansion. Your empire has good land, but not enough military or workers for the land.
• More units, less buildings. I notice that you've got every single city building granary-first. Granaries are extremely powerful buildings, but there are times when you want to make a worker or chariot first. And you didn't need three libraries this early; one library to run a pair of scientist specialists would suffice until you had enough workers.
• Pyramids is still on the table, your empire has stone, and you have a ton of forests around Cuzco. Kind of late in the game for it, but might be worth taking a run at Pyramids. Get Masonry, improve your stone (put a couple workers on it at once to finish faster), chop down forests around Cuzco to speed up production. If you get it, great - swap to Representation, which is an extremely powerful civic early in the game. Your biggest cities get 3 more happiness, and scientist specialists become extremely powerful researchers. Good way to leverage those three libraries you already have finished / in production. If someone else beats you to it, not as great but still good; the stone production boost means you get a big pile of failgold out of it very efficiently.
• There's still a lot of vacant land, and the most important tech for making sure your economy stays on an even keel as you continue growing is Currency. So that's something you'll want in the short-to-medium term.
  
• No real need to capture Athens now. Alexander is way behind in this game, he'll still be there to finish off later. Catapults would almost certainly make short work of him, for example.
• You have a winning position here. A glance at the demographics screen makes it clear that you have dramatically out-expanded any of the AIs, and you're researching well above average. More land and better tech; you're gonna win this one. Just a matter of time.

 

[SaintSaens_Op61]

I just noticed something that I've never seen before, maybe someone can explain what's going on.

Here's what's happening: I load the same turn 75/1000 BC save that I posted recently. The research bar says that I have 3 turns to research Alphabet, which is a minor problem since I'm running -26 gold/turn with only 56 in my treasury. Then, I press enter. It doesn't seem to matter what I do on turn 76, but once I move my last unit, the research bar changes from 2 turns left on Alphabet to 1 turn left. After reloading several times to see what was happening, I saw that the green number next to the research slider changed from +47 to +49. Which is nice, because I don't have to find more gold to finish the tech.

What's happening here? At the end of a turn, do city governors try to make adjustments to finish a tehc in one turn instread of two or three?