[BTS] Monarch Shadow Game

[SaintSaens_Op61]

The custom assets option means you don't load the mod, the stuff is just there. MP requires that all players have the same assets. Not sure how custom assets effects this since I don't play MP. But I do know that if using a "standalone" mod, then all players must be on the same version of the mod. Custom Assets is not "standalone". The "standalone" install option of BUG is for MP. Simple solution is once you create your "BUG" version of Custom Assets, then rename it to "Custom Assets - BUG" > load BTS again and new fresh CA folder will be generated > switch between the to by renaming them.

"Out of Sync" issues are caused by different assets when playing MP.

BUG/BULL greatly enhances the user interface/info in the game, with a few other nice features like auto-cancel worker prechops and the dotmap tool. Most everyone round here uses it.

Ok, I'll look into that in a bit.

I played through turn 8, researched Mining, and met Cyrus. Should I continue like this, or do something different?

 

[lymond]

Well, AH looking more valuable now with two more pigs visible, and that pigs/gold spot looks might juicy. AH should time more than fine with worker at 7t to finish and 5t to farm. Then Mining/BW. Farm the wine. I think some idle worker turns though, so BW first is still more than fine.

 

[SaintSaens_Op61]

I researched AH, farmed the corn, and met Alexander. Fortunately, there are horses 1SW of Cuzco. I plan to move first Quechua south to explore around the pigs/gold and send my next Quechuas north or east.

What should I do next with my worker? Build a pasture on the pigs or horses?

 

[lymond]

Definitely the pigs first. Always improve food specials first. I might farm the wine next since that can be started immediately after pigs, then move to the horse. Grow to size 4 to start settler which can be whipped 4>2. Worker will start chopping after those 4 improvements. My target city right now would be 2XSW of horse (pigs/gold), which is simply a great city.

 

[SaintSaens_Op61]

I built the pastures and the farm. Next turn, I'll switch to slavery and start on the settler. What tech should I research next? I'm thinking maybe The Wheel, Iron Working or Writing.

By the way, can those of you who have BUG/BULL open my saves? Since I already started this game, I don't know if I can convert it to BUG/BULL. Should I just post more screenshots?

 

[lymond]

Sure...with BUG/BULL in Custom Assets anyone can open the save, and it will work with this game. The mod is not loaded...the features are just "there". Saves created with BUG/BULL in custom assets are the same as having no mod.

Settler should have been started immediately at size 4. Make sure you manage your citizens and keep the horse tile worked instead of the plains hill. (same production toward settler but the extra commerce is better)

You do not need a Q in Cuzco right now. He should have been sent SE.

Alex is a bit close and not a stand-up chap. I might use him for worker farming and choking. Beware of any strats and make sure they are not improved.

IW is something the human tends to avoid teching themselves. Easy to trade for later and way to expensive this early to waste time on.

TW>Pot>Writing>Maths>Alpha looks good to me. Although there is stone to the SW so you might go Masonry after Writing for Mids...maybe Great Wall or at least fail gold from that wonder. With the large map size barbs could be an issue later.

Some really nice land, and ofc, a lot of it. I don't play large maps.

oh...4>2 whip into a new worker as soon as you can whip it, while the other worker chops 1N of horse into the that worker. 1 of those workers heads to pigs gold to improve pigs.

(Note: Once you settle your first city, you start deficit research. Instead of running X% always run either 100% or 0%. Bank just enough gold to finish the next tech.)

 

[reflec]

One of the biggest things I learned from my monarch shadow game was that what you do is less important as you committing fully to your decision.

Here, you have some fantastic land around you; multiple good food sources, multiple golds, and a lot of FPs. I would go wheel->pottery and get as many FP cottages up, especially since with FIN, a cottage takes a riverside grassland/FP from 1 to 3. I'd build at minimum 4 more cities before thinking about war

 

[SaintSaens_Op61]

Saves created with BUG/BULL in custom assets are the same as having no mod.

Good to know.

One of the biggest things I learned from my monarch shadow game was that what you do is less important as you committing fully to your decision.

That makes sense. I agree that cottages will be very productive here.

 

[lymond]

I edited my post above, so you may have missed some points. (Oh..and I meant send Q SE not SW)

Cottages will be great, but improving specials and chops take priority at this stage.

Here's a screen of your game after I played just a few turns (a little map knowledge to SE but you should have had that knowledge already as your Q should not have been in Cusco)

Spoiler Die Alex Die! :

Note here that I sent 1 Q SE from Cuzco and then veered toward Alex's southern Borders while the one you had NW of Alex I moved down to his borders. Worked out well as I stole his worker and stepped on his horses the same turn, and then pillaged his horses. If he had a chariot that would be dangerous, but I figured since he still had 1 city he must be building a settler which in fact he was - I scared him back into Athens.

I will now choke Athens for some time and worker farm. Pillage cows and road and then stand on forest PH 2E of Athens ..He will continuously send a worker to those horses cause your Q is not next to them or the city. Step between Athens and the Horse and the worker can't escape back to Athens. Other Q can stay 2 tiles away from Athens on the W side of city. I'd send the next Q up N of Athens.

And, yeah, Q's are insane for this reason. You could take Athens with a stack of them.

Note I marked City 2 on the screen 1SW of Copper for next city. You want a terrace in there asap.

I don't fully agree with reflec's comment as I deem it overly simplistic. One may commit to something but it's meaningless if one is doing a lot of stupid crap cause they don't know better. It pays to learn as this is a complex game. But once you do learn, I agree that you formulate a plan and commit to it.

 

[SaintSaens_Op61]

Ok, I went back and played to turn 42. What's next?

(Note: Once you settle your first city, you start deficit research. Instead of running X% always run either 100% or 0%. Bank just enough gold to finish the next tech.)

I understand what you're saying, but I don't understand how this is better than running, say, 80% or 60%. Is there some bonus somewhere for commerce or research when the slider is at 100%?

 

[lymond]

I understand what you're saying, but I don't understand how this is better than running, say, 80% or 60%. Is there some bonus somewhere for commerce or research when the slider is at 100%?

Good question. A bit complex in full, but the foremost thing to take from this is that there is a rounding issue in the game that is eliminated at 0% and 100%. So basically max gold until you can fund the next tech. But there's further benefits from things like finding more AIs, AIs knowing techs, and simply funding expansion. You will "feel" and recognize this more as you move up difficulty. (One can start to play with the slider later as your economy grows and you have libraries in and scientists running, but for now I would go with the 0%/100% guideline).

Note: Keep close tabs on your bank and run 100% as soon as you can fund the next tech. Just do the math.

If you'd like to simply see what I'm talking about, do this right now. Lower the slider to 0% and note gold v. beakers. Now do so at 10%. 1 Commerce = 1 Gold or 1 Beaker without multipliers.

 

[coanda]

There are three reasons to run deficit research (0% and 100%, nowhere in between).

The first, which is huge in the early game, is that beakers and gold income are rounded down to the nearest full number. 5 commerce per turn at 50% slider? That's 2 beakers and 2 gold per turn; 10 turns later you've generated 20 beakers and 20 gold. 5 commerce per turn alternating 0% and 100%? That's either 5 gold or 5 beakers per turn; 10 turns later you've generated 25 beakers and 25 gold. This rounding becomes a negligible factor later in the game when you've got hundreds of commerce, but it can be a major early-game boost.

The second is that you might get better modifiers if you wait. For example, research goes faster when you know more other civilizations who have the tech. Suppose you're in a 6-player game, spending 10 turns researching a tech. 5 turns in, 3 of your neighbors discover that tech. That means you get a 15% boost to further progress on that tech starting on the 6th turn. If you've been running 50% slider the whole time, you're saving about 7.5% of the tech's cost in beakers. If you've been running 0% slider the first 5 turns, then 100% the next 5, you save 15% of the cost in beakers. Or maybe you're working on building a library, and waiting lets you get that nice library beaker production boost. Stuff like that; in general, research gets more efficient as time passes so it pays to defer research.

The third is that it keeps your options open longer. You learn more as time passes, which helps make more informed tech decisions. Maybe you thought you had a good chance at founding Confucianism for a holy city only to discover halfway through the research that someone else founded it. Maybe you were aiming for a Liberalism beeline to bulb a critical tech, and someone else is simply going to beat you to it. Maybe you thought you were in full isolation with no neighbors, then suddenly discover that your island can see the cultural borders of another city on a neighboring island. Maybe you just got backstabbed by a neighbor's declaration of war. Any of these could cause you to want to reshuffle your priorities... which you can do at no cost if all you've done so far is bank up gold preparing to research. But once you start putting beakers into the tech, switching priorities becomes more painful.

 

[SaintSaens_Op61]

Good question. A bit complex in full, but the foremost thing to take from this is that there is a rounding issue in the game that is eliminated at 0% and 100%. So basically max gold until you can fund the next tech. But there's further benefits from things like finding more AIs, AIs knowing techs, and simply funding expansion. You will "feel" and recognize this more as you move up difficulty. (One can start to play with the slider later as your economy grows and you have libraries in and scientists running, but for now I would go with the 0%/100% guideline).

Note: Keep close tabs on your bank and run 100% as soon as you can fund the next tech. Just do the math.

If you'd like to simply see what I'm talking about, do this right now. Lower the slider to 0% and note gold v. beakers. Now do so at 10%. 1 Commerce = 1 Gold or 1 Beaker without multipliers.

There are three reasons to run deficit research (0% and 100%, nowhere in between).

The first, which is huge in the early game, is that beakers and gold income are rounded down to the nearest full number. 5 commerce per turn at 50% slider? That's 2 beakers and 2 gold per turn; 10 turns later you've generated 20 beakers and 20 gold. 5 commerce per turn alternating 0% and 100%? That's either 5 gold or 5 beakers per turn; 10 turns later you've generated 25 beakers and 25 gold. This rounding becomes a negligible factor later in the game when you've got hundreds of commerce, but it can be a major early-game boost.

The second is that you might get better modifiers if you wait. For example, research goes faster when you know more other civilizations who have the tech. Suppose you're in a 6-player game, spending 10 turns researching a tech. 5 turns in, 3 of your neighbors discover that tech. That means you get a 15% boost to further progress on that tech starting on the 6th turn. If you've been running 50% slider the whole time, you're saving about 7.5% of the tech's cost in beakers. If you've been running 0% slider the first 5 turns, then 100% the next 5, you save 15% of the cost in beakers. Or maybe you're working on building a library, and waiting lets you get that nice library beaker production boost. Stuff like that; in general, research gets more efficient as time passes so it pays to defer research.

The third is that it keeps your options open longer. You learn more as time passes, which helps make more informed tech decisions. Maybe you thought you had a good chance at founding Confucianism for a holy city only to discover halfway through the research that someone else founded it. Maybe you were aiming for a Liberalism beeline to bulb a critical tech, and someone else is simply going to beat you to it. Maybe you thought you were in full isolation with no neighbors, then suddenly discover that your island can see the cultural borders of another city on a neighboring island. Maybe you just got backstabbed by a neighbor's declaration of war. Any of these could cause you to want to reshuffle your priorities... which you can do at no cost if all you've done so far is bank up gold preparing to research. But once you start putting beakers into the tech, switching priorities becomes more painful.

Thanks for the explanations, that makes sense now. It seems to be a good idea to have more gold than you think that you might need, in case your expenses increase.

I built the third city and stole a few workers from Alexander. I have been building Quechuas whenever Cuzco was growing to size 4, so I have 9 right now. How many more would I need to capture Athens, or should I just focus on building new cities?

 

[SaintSaens_Op61]

Where should I build my next cities? I took a screenshot of a few places that I thought might be good for a fourth city.

When is it good to overlap city radii? Normally I try to avoid any overlap at all. I know that early in the game, overlap can help cottages to grow faster. Is this just beneficial in the early game?

Spoiler Possible City Locations :

Also the grasslands 4E, 3N of Cuzco.

Spoiler BAT mod error messages :

I figured out how to install the BAT mod. When I started a new game, these error messages came up. Everything seems to be working fine, though. Is there something I can do to fix this?

 

[lymond]

Address BAT mod first - I use this mod most for my casual games, but if sharing games on the forum I'd stick with the BUG/BULL deal you have for the current game. Anyway, not totally sure on the issue. Could be a bad install, so you could try reinstalling. BAT is basically BUG/BULL + graphics and is standalone, but having the BULL DLL active should not conflict with BAT since it ignores it and runs it anyway. However, you might try switching back to the vanilla DLL when running BAT. Also, when installing anything always use "run as administrator".

Oh..and where did you get your version for Civ IV? (appears that it is not the Steam version from the error message I see, but just making sure)

edit: One thought just came to mind. For some strange reason, BAT install executable prompts for install into "User" folders, and I think it defaults to that option as well. That should be avoided. You want BAT installed in the main directory - the one seen in the error message, not in "My Documents". I've no clue why the developers ever setup the install to do it that way, but it is wrong. (and make sure you delete that one)

====
Ok..now some pointers on your current game:

1) First, I encourage to get in the habit of thinking about your worker actions and what a city needs. You have 3 workers, but no worker at Machu. Cuzco only needs a few improvements right now and the specials are all improve, so focus should be a chopping, and 1 of those workers should have moved to Machu with the settler.

---so balance improvements, chops and the fact that you are going to be whipping some versus simply improving every tile you can like cottaging that grass tile which is simply unnecessary at this stage.

--it's vital that new cities have a worker on it asap improving and chopping.

2) The road on the corn was wasted worker turns.

3) Try to avoid unhappiness. Tiwanaku could have 2 popped whipped that granary at a point before the gran hit 30H of production. Or just queue a settler before it hits unhappiness until you can do something about it.

4) No reason for that farm on the FP below Tiwanaku. All those FPs will be cottaged at some point. (lots of wasted turns on that farm - takes 8 turns on a desert). After improving pigs and gold (maybe roading gold first when on the hill since gold is not on a river), I might start chopping those forest for a faster terrace. The start some cottages.

5) Queue up a Q in Cuzco right now. 3 turns to build as city grows, then finish gran. Ideally don't finish gran after food bar exceeds the half way point of food storage (complex concept but allows for better granary optimization) But to be clear, but to finish gran at next pop point. Have 1 worker prepare a chop for it now.

6) Looks like you just stole a worker. Good idea to have moved Q onto cow and pillage that road. Reason is that every new worker can move and put in a turn on those horses before you scare it off. 4X of that and horse are improve and Alex can whip a Chariot which is game over. Also, archers can't move out easily on that road. Oh and probably should at least delete the road on the FP there too as worker can still move to horse and put turn into improvement since the horse has a road too.

...also, make sure you don't keep any units adjacent to Athens constantly...just encourages Alex to build more units due to feeling threatened.

(note: I assume you are aware that you can harass Alex like this cause of the Q's unique ability)

Ok..other things. Overlapping cities is actually a great thing. Allows tile sharing between cities and for the cap it allows cottage growth by sharing cottages until Bureaucracy. Proximity to cap reduces distance costs too. Tiw does not overlap much but eventually 2 grass tiles can be cottaged and worked for Cuzco. (your improving one of those tiles now but should stop)

Try to settle with food in the first ring when settling new cities. (Creative trait provides some flexibility there but try to get in that habit). Marked spots are ok with the exception of what I just mentioned, but would not be my priority.

1SE of pigs NW of Cuzco would be my next target and has some overlap with Cuzco.

Some immediate scouting would be good soon in the Northern areas. I know I had you distracted from that with harassing Alex..ha. Barbs will be a problem here with all this land so some spawnbusters would be good too.

Guy in Machu can scout a little bit south ..no need for him in city right now. Pigs spot S of there looks good.

edit: Looks like not quite enough gold to finish Writing this turn so you will need to bank for 1 turn at 0%. (Could not find a sweet spot at X% to get around the rounding issue, but eventually that will be the case)

edit: No no...I just realized you have a coupla Q's waayyy far away scouting. Unnecessary. That can come later. Need to protect the homeland and you have still scouted in proximity to Cuzco. Those Qs should be spawnbusting.

 

[coanda]

Unless you're really desperate to fit a city into an area, you almost always want every early city to have access to a food special so it can grow quickly at size 1 and 2. You also don't want to wait long - or at all, preferably - to start working that tile. Which means delays for border pops are problematic. A Creative leader gets a border pop in 5 turns; he can be a little flexible. If you happened to conquer Stonehenge with a very early rush, that's a border pop in 10 turns; you can put up with that if you really need to. As Inca, chopping out a Terrace takes about 5 turns, then another 5 turns for a border pop; again, you can put up with that if you really need to. But even for all of these, it's strongly preferable to not need that border pop.

So I just glance at your current map, and I see three plausible regions for a cities in the near future. Near the pigs to the north, near the pigs to the southeast, and near the corn to the southwest.

Be aware of this as you are scouting. This is the primary duty of your early scouts: to identify key city locations near your capital for your early settling. Find the nearby good food specials, find out how good their surrounding territory is so you know how urgently you want to settle the region, find out where exactly in relation to those resources you're going to want to found the city. It's unfortunate, for example, that you didn't scout a couple tiles further north of the north pigs, or south of the southeast pigs.

Pigs to the north, you have limited picture of what's further up. You're seeing some tundra northwest of your capital, and if you squint really carefully at the border of the fog 2N of the pigs you can see that tile is also tundra, so it's probably not great terrain. 1SE of northern pigs looks best right now. There might be resources or other unexpected stuff in the fog that would change that thinking.

Pigs to the southeast, same deal. Limited scouting; you have no idea what there is further south of them. Judging by the area scouted by your Quechua to the south of your capital, that's probably getting down around the jungle band of the map - again, not great territory on average but there might be something good in the immediate vicinity. 1E of the southeastern pigs looks best right now; again, might be resources or other unexpected stuff in the fog to change that.

Corn to the southwest, at least you have a full picture of the region. 1NE of the corn gets corn, oasis, and a couple floodplains, plus a handful of forests to chop. That's the best spot in that vicinity. It's distant enough from your capital, relatively low-production and not a truly amazing city site, so I would not make it an immediate priority.

General note: less cottaging and farming, more chopping. Expand fast when you can! This is the time to seize as much land and as many good city sites as possible, as quickly as possible. Your economy is really strong at the moment, you don't need to worry about crashing it. If someone dropped 6 settlers into your lap next turn, you'd use them all immediately.

 

[SaintSaens_Op61]

Since the purpose of this game is to learn, I'll probably restart much more often than I usually would.

Oh..and where did you get your version for Civ IV? (appears that it is not the Steam version from the error message I see, but just making sure)

I have a CD, but I downloaded the 3.19 patch from this site.

No reason for that farm on the FP below Tiwanaku. All those FPs will be cottaged at some point. (lots of wasted turns on that farm - takes 8 turns on a desert). After improving pigs and gold (maybe roading gold first when on the hill since gold is not on a river), I might start chopping those forest for a faster terrace. The start some cottages.

Interesting, I always built cottages on floodplain until I read on another thread that floodplains should be farmed. What are your reasons for cottaging floodplains?

 

[sampsa]

In general, floodplains should be cottaged. However, if the fp-city lacks a -resource, I'd farm at least (the first) one.

 

[lymond]

Interesting, I always built cottages on floodplain until I read on another thread that floodplains should be farmed. What are your reasons for cottaging floodplains?

Interested in where you read that, but floodplains are classic cottage tiles - lovely in Bureau caps. As Sampsa said though, you might farm an fp or two in cities that lack food specials. In your case, Tiwa is an awesome cottage spot and commerce center with a nice pigs to feed everything.

 

[Fippy]

It seems to be a good idea to have more gold than you think that you might need, in case your expenses increase.

Actually nope, having the slider at 0% for too long can delay important techs.
Forgetting to turn on research again can easily destroy your gains from often using 0% and 100%.
Usually you should start 100% again after 1t of 0%, with just 2-3 cities on lower difficulties.
Also helps with developing a desire for fast progress.
There are no magic gold losses in IV, unless you play with events

Floodplains are classic cottage tiles cos they are already food positive, and usually come in bunches.
For example 4 worked FP cottages create a +6 food surplus, which will usually do.
The other reason are worker turns. You need 7t for a floodplains farm which increases food by just +1.
Worker turns are very much connected to how fast your empire can be developed in early stages, and FP farms compete with stuff like chopping forests.
(+1 food compared to 20h available fast)