[BTS] Monarch Shadow Game

[lymond]

Considering I recently "lost" a really good HoF .

Not sure how that happened or exactly what you meant, but BULL should not conflict with BUFFY/HOF anyway. Only issue would be if opening other HOF or GOTM/SGOTM games since assets have to match due to LMA. Or maybe it is a Linux thing.

But I would not discourage BUG/BULL in custom assets and the dll, as it is very easy to deal with.

edit: Yep..I just tested running BUFFY with both my bug CA active and the DLL, and started a valid HOF game. BUFFY should ignore both. LMA does not ignore that though as it validates all assets when opening other saves (by other meaning created by other players - unless they too have bull active) and will simply crash on load.

 

[SaintSaens_Op61]

Turn 110/125 BC.

I'm one turn away from Currency. What should I research next? The two routes I see right now are Mathematics>Construction (for catapults), and CoL>Liberalism.

I moved the Q east to the coast.

 

[Pangaea]

Not sure how that happened or exactly what you meant, but BULL should not conflict with BUFFY/HOF anyway.

I think this is what happened.

Spoiler :

What must have happened is that I played the Buffy version of the game, but had forgotten to replace the DLLs after loading one of the forum games. Which I suppose means that I was pretty much just playing the BUG version (in that particular session). With the proper DLL, Buffy refuses to load the save, and the game crashes to desktop. There is a message on screen, but I can't read it because of the CTD.

In other words, even if you run the Buffy version of the game, the danger is that if you happen to forget to replace the DLLs, a valid HoF game can get ruined. There is no warning when opening the game and everything looks precisely like when I was using the Buffy mod properly. So I had no idea anything was wrong. But later, when I tried to load the save with a correct DLL, it refused to load the save and it crashed to desktop. I don't think it has anything to do with Linux. Very expensive lesson for me

 

[SaintSaens_Op61]

Not sure how that happened or exactly what you meant, but BULL should not conflict with BUFFY/HOF anyway.

What is BUFFY? Do HoF games have a special mod?

 

[Pangaea]

What is BUFFY? Do HoF games have a special mod?

Yes. It is ultimately very similar to BUG+BULL (for the regular user at least), but there is some stuff in there that helps the staff to detect if people are replaying turns and stuff like that (probably all secret). You need the Buffy mod to play games for the Hall of Fame or Bts of the Month. Here is a link to it.

 

[SaintSaens_Op61]

Yes. It is ultimately very similar to BUG+BULL (for the regular user at least), but there is some stuff in there that helps the staff to detect if people are replaying turns and stuff like that (probably all secret). You need the Buffy mod to play games for the Hall of Fame or Bts of the Month. Here is a link to it.

That makes sense, thanks!

 

[lymond]

I think this is what happened.

Spoiler :

What must have happened is that I played the Buffy version of the game, but had forgotten to replace the DLLs after loading one of the forum games. Which I suppose means that I was pretty much just playing the BUG version (in that particular session). With the proper DLL, Buffy refuses to load the save, and the game crashes to desktop. There is a message on screen, but I can't read it because of the CTD.

In other words, even if you run the Buffy version of the game, the danger is that if you happen to forget to replace the DLLs, a valid HoF game can get ruined. There is no warning when opening the game and everything looks precisely like when I was using the Buffy mod properly. So I had no idea anything was wrong. But later, when I tried to load the save with a correct DLL, it refused to load the save and it crashed to desktop. I don't think it has anything to do with Linux. Very expensive lesson for me

All you have to do is get your assets as they were when you created the HOF game. In this case, that appears to be switching back to the BULL DLL. You can then load the game again. (Rarely, but occasionally, I've had to do this when loading folks' HOF saves for vetting, as sometimes they had their BULL active at the time..and I simply figured out that that was the problem)

(edit: I'm sorry I did not see the original post over in HOF. If you still have that game it should be fine...and certainly valid)

Again, BUFFY ignores that stuff, but LMA does not. LMA simply refuses to load a save that does not match the assets when generated.

@SaintSaens_Op61 see my sig

also, you may find it interesting to lurk in the current SGOTM (succession game of the month). Some serious brain power going on there.

 

[Pangaea]

(edit: I'm sorry I did not see the original post over in HOF. If you still have that game it should be fine...and certainly valid)

I don't think so unfortunately I have the game, but when I try to load the save, the game crashes. Probably because I played that session with the wrong DLL (BULL instead of Buffy/original). Presumably it's the Lock Modified Assets that is causing havoc in one way or another. I contacted Noble Zarkon about it, and it crashes on his setup too

 

[SaintSaens_Op61]

@SaintSaens_Op61 see my sig

also, you may find it interesting to lurk in the current SGOTM (succession game of the month). Some serious brain power going on there.

I may just have to try one of those!

 

[Pangaea]

Turn 110/125 BC.

I'm one turn away from Currency. What should I research next? The two routes I see right now are Mathematics>Construction (for catapults), and CoL>Liberalism.

I moved the Q east to the coast.

Looking at the save, the Q doesn't fogbust anything, as both cities cover the tiles. You may however use him or the boat to fogbust the (so far) uncovered coast tile, so that barb galleys can't spawn there. Right now the boat covers that tile, but I assume you meant to explore with it.

Did Alex really only get two cities? Or maybe you choked him for a couple thousand years? I'd probably just put him out of his misery at this point. Would also reiterate that the barb city to your west looks pretty nice. You have the units to grab it, though they're kinda spread out by now, and a fair few in Alex' lands.

A little surprised you haven't advanced more in tech given the awesome land and plethora of golds, but maybe there were very few trading opportunities? Anyway, if you want to crack skulls, going for Math->Construction makes sense. Kinda early to think about Lib given where you are in the tech tree. You can also go for CS ofc, and then think about Lib after that. Or CS and then Music (for the free Great Artist). Once you get Currency, you'll be able to trade for Math (and maybe Sailing too?) with either Cyrus or Justinian. AIs are pretty backwards here, although it's of course possible that Cyrus or Justinian is working on Feudalism for longbows. However, you have the population and land to pretty quickly whip out catas. Sitting Bull is terribly backwards, so protection won't save him. You can smash him with axes and catas. Ragnar makes more sense really, as he isn't stuck in the jungle, and has loads of forests left from what I can tell. So maybe go and kill him, after Alex is gone?

As mentioned at some point earlier, I'm not too keen on green hill cottages. I see you are building several here, which is fine I guess. Just different preferences. I prefer to have cottages on green riverside (even non-riverside in a pinch), then mines on the green hills so I have that option, and if I want even more cottages, I put them on riverside plains. Same yield as green hills, but means I have the option of working hammers if I want.

I'd like you to consider worker management, though. Look at this picture:

Spoiler :

You have four workers there, all working on different improvements, the city is building a library, and is working several unimproved tiles.

The library could have been whipped.
Workers can team up so that the improvement is built faster.
You are building improvements over jungles and forests, instead of first chopping it down. Okay, you don't have math yet, but chops are still good, and you get it faster.
You are farming a plains tile instead of the green riverside. Better to prioritise a cottage or farm there, since it's a superior tile.
For some reason you are working unimproved tiles, but not the riverside mine. Whip the library instead, and work scientists if you grow onto unimproved tiles.

Also, try to think ahead with regards to the dry wheat. There are several possible tiles of course, but you want to farm one of the tiles next to the wheat, so that when you get CS, the wheat is automatically irrigated for +1 . If you want another farm there anyway, you could have farmed the forested green tile that one of the workers is currently building a cottage on. Or the plains tile 1N of him.

Food for thought, maybe.

 

[Pangaea]

Oh dear. I looked at more cities. Please, pretty please, try to ensure you don't work so many unimproved tiles. It makes my heart bleed. Use the mercilessly in cases like this. Have those golds been unworked for ages as well? Kind of a waste. Yes, I see you are growing cottages, which is fine, but those golds are awesome tiles, so I hope you have worked them pretty much non-stop, at least one of them.

Are you aware of espionage points and how to spend them? Currently there is no priority, which means you get +1 EP for 4 AIs, and nothing on the rest. Which means you can see the power ratio on some of them, which is kinda worthless, and there is no tech view. Among this crowd, Justinian is probably the best techer, so I'd try to get tech view on him. Maybe a bit late now, but go into the espionage screen and hit the little "+" next to his name. Then all points will be diverted to him. You can adapt this as you want, but early on when you only have 4 EPs per turn, it's better to put them on the presumably best techer/trader in the game. If Mansa is in the game, that's him. Here, it's probably Justinian.

I also hit next turn, and you can indeed get Math+Sailing from Justinian, plus Mysticism too (and 5 gold). May as well do that, as you won't get much trades out of this lot anyway, once you get your cities in order. Turn after that, maybe you can get something useful out of Cyrus, though I guess he'll hold onto Construction. Monarchy should be fine though, once you have the pre-reqs for it (don't recall what you missed now, and closed down the game). Monarchy is always available because it doesn't unlock any (military) units or wonders. Same with Alpha.

 

[SaintSaens_Op61]

Turn 117/50 AD

A few more questions:

• I just got a GS this turn, what should I do with him? I normally build Academies; +50% of the 51.25 in Tiwanaku would be nice. I could also bulb Philosophy or start a golden age.
• When should I build Monasteries and Temples?
• How many axes/chariots do you need to conquer a city with three archers? How about 3 units per archer?
• When should you not whip (assuming that you already have invested)? Is it too much to 4-pop whip a market?
• Is it good to trade techs to the AIs for just gold, and no techs?

Sitting Bull is terribly backwards, so protection won't save him. You can smash him with axes and catas. Ragnar makes more sense really, as he isn't stuck in the jungle, and has loads of forests left from what I can tell.

How would the logistics work if I attacked Ragnar? Wouldn't it be better to conquer SB before DoWing Ragnar? While Cyrus makes the most sense logistically, but the least sense diplomatically, as everyone is pleased with him. Ragnar makes the most sense diplomatically since he is the only leader that will DoW at pleased, but he is the most difficult in terms of logistics.

 

[SaintSaens_Op61]

Oh dear. I looked at more cities. Please, pretty please, try to ensure you don't work so many unimproved tiles. It makes my heart bleed. Use the mercilessly in cases like this. Have those golds been unworked for ages as well? Kind of a waste. Yes, I see you are growing cottages, which is fine, but those golds are awesome tiles, so I hope you have worked them pretty much non-stop, at least one of them.

I probably am better at planning improvements than I am at building them quickly. Now that you mention it, it makes sense to prioritize improvements based on each cities' population.

Are you aware of espionage points and how to spend them?

Yes, but I usually don't pay attention to the weightings until I am at war. That's a good idea to focus EPs on the leading techer.

 

[sampsa]

I normally build Academies; +50% of the 51.25 in Tiwanaku would be nice.

Where does the 51,25 come from? Base is 27 now if working best tiles (=growing, you are below -cap). With bureau it will be +40, so the academy is worth some 20 per turn at 100% slider. I know I am very anti-academy, but I would bulb philo and go caste+paci as I think it beats an academy by quite a lot.

Oh and didn't you get the memo on markets? It's a very bad building.

 

[lymond]

My one comment in follow-up to sampsa on academies, is that while very powerful, the Philo bulb to caste/paci route is really only as good as one makes it. It is more advanced, so until one has a better grasp on those concepts, an academy in your cap is recommended for now.

Edit: If this is your second GS then Philo bulb is good. You really don’t build more than one academy outside your cap. Bulbing is powerful

 

[lymond]

Yes, but I usually don't pay attention to the weightings until I am at war. That's a good idea to focus EPs on the leading techer.

This was a point I was attempting to convey earlier when mentioning some of the worker actions I deemed out of place at the time. Find a balance between improvements, population, specialists and chopping.

 

[Pangaea]

Just some comments.

• You can sell Priesthood to two AIs for 70g combined. This is one of the strengths with Currency. You can sell outdated/small techs for gold, and you can sell resources for gold per turn. Great way to boost your economy.
• Some of your cities are not connected, despite having Sailing. This means they have worse happiness and health issues than otherwise would have been the case. A single road can fix these problems.
• Markets are generally a huge waste of time and hammers. It can be worth it in the capital, and maybe other strong commerce cities (admittedly like Tiwanaku), but don't get into the bad habit of building too many buildings. Usually you are better off pumping out units or building Wealth/Research. Often buildings take a long time to pay back, and in that time you could have used the cities for more immediate needs.
• You still have a lot of forests in and around your cities. They could have been chopped down earlier, at least more of them, into units, workers, settlers and the odd building.

 

[SaintSaens_Op61]

Oh and didn't you get the memo on markets? It's a very bad building.

Apparently I didn't. I thought that the main benefit of Currency was markets. Are they really bad, or just inefficient at times?

 

[coanda]

Markets cost 150 hammers to give +25% gold and potentially some happiness boosts. If the happiness isn't particularly crucial (and there are generally cheaper, easier ways to get that happiness), it's not a very good building. In a city with, say, 20 commerce (which describes only a couple of your best cities at the moment), when you're running the slider on gold maybe 2/3 of the time, that's 3-4 more gold per turn. Which means it takes 40-50 turns for a market to break even with the gold you'd have just by building wealth. But your economy should have scaled so much bigger by the time 40-50 turns pass, 1 gold 50 turns in the future is vastly less useful than 1 gold right now.

The primary benefits of Currency are +1 trade routes per city (1-2 free commerce per city, without needing to spend anything on it), and more crucially the ability to build wealth directly if needed. Before Currency, an economic crunch means your research grinds to a halt and an economic collapse means units disband. After Currency, both of those just mean that you divert some city production to wealth instead of units while you get some cottages built up.

 

[Pangaea]

This is the exhaustive list of buildings that all cities need:

• Granary

Nice to have, but not strictly required

• Lighthouse (coastal cities with food)
• Forge
• Courthouse (if maintenance costs are very high, you are Organised (cheap courthouses), or you are in the late game and use corporations

That's basically it. And I'm hesitant to include courthouses there, for fear of people building them willy-nilly. The point I'm trying to make is that the only building you truly need (and there are even exceptions) is a granary. Everything else is situational, and should be considered before being built. If you aren't sure what to build, Wealth is usually a safe bet.

Once you get more familiar with this line of thinking and see the benefits of it, you understand more intuitively what buildings may be worth it and in what (types of) cities.

Incidentally, one of the nice things about space games is that it's actually okay to build more buildings. Woot!