[BTS] Monarch Shadow Game

Cyrus demanded writing from me. I gave it to him because he is my biggest potential military threat, and because I can still trade writing with other civs that are farther south. Was this good reasoning, or should I have not given him writing?

Spoiler Tech Trading :

I can trade techs now that I have alphabet. Currently, the only tech I can trade is writing (athough I think I will be able to trade alphabet once the AIs start to have writing). Once I have masonry, I think that I can trade MA+WR for IW. Thoughts?
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Spoiler 8th City :

While I will slow down my expansion to build more military and workers, Cuzco has one more settler in progress. I'm thinking about taking advantage of these two golds. Maybe the hill 1W of the lake? The other options are the PH/fish/horses city to the E of this screen, and more pigs way to the W. If I settled here, then I could use the units that I already have to defend against barbs.
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One more question for now. If I plan on building the Pyramids, then:
  1. What population size should Cusco be? 4 for 4>2 whipping, or 6 because that is the biggest it can be without being unhappy?
  2. I know that I should chop into wonders, but should I whip while builidng wonders?
  3. Should I build mines on some of the hills near Cuzco?
 
When you move your last unassigned unit, all the units with assigned orders make their own moves immediately. The worker SW of Ollantaytambo finishes the cottage he has been told to build; the tile gains 2 commerce per turn. Hence, 2 more beakers.
 
You should usually accept demands until you get more experienced with diplo yup, especially if it's cheap techs like writing.
Think only about your gains, not AIs. Such a small price for diplo boosts, which allows you not building military unless you want to attack somebody.

Always accept demands for resources, there are very little exceptions (basically just if you want to attack that AI and forced peace would annoy you).
Can be cancelled after 10t anyways, no harm done.

If an AI demands gold it's more complicated (valuable unlike those other examples :)).
Evaluate their danger rating (for yourself i.e. can they reach me, ignore what rating advisors give like "danger high" that can be totally wrong).

Also note they beg sometimes (could you spare this) and sometimes they demand (lots of funny lines).
Rejected demands often lead to war plotting, begs never do (just -1 diplo you refused to help us).
If they ask you to stop trading with their worst enemy you can also safely deny (unless you really want diplo points with that AI), those are not war checks.
 
Generally good to give in to AI demands. The exceptions would be if you literally don't care at all about them, the demand is for gold, or you think it's important to keep that specific tech away from them - an example of this would be not giving Monarchy to someone if you're gonna be attacking in a dozen turns, because that might help them get Feudalism for longbows, or not giving Aesthetics to someone while you are building The Parthenon. Cyrus is one of the higher-performing AIs in general, but he's also a pretty friendly neighbor if you manage him well. Get him to "Pleased" status and he's a good trustworthy friend. Nothing wrong with giving him Writing.

Tech trading in general is a good thing. Be aware that every AI has a hidden counter of how many times they've seen you get a tech in trade (from them or anyone else); when you go above a threshold on that counter, they start saying "We fear you are becoming too advanced" and refusing to trade more techs with you unless you are "Friendly" relations to them. So really garbage techs aren't always good things to get if you have no particular use for them; e.g., you'll probably want to simply skip Archery this game.

I strongly dislike the spot 1W of the lake for an 8th city. It has zero forests to chop and zero good tiles to work prior to a border pop. Which means first you'll need to (slowly) build a monument or granary. Then you'll need to (slowly) wait for 10 culture for a border pop, then build the gold mines. And you'll also be relying just on some ordinary riverside grass farm tiles to grow on, so simply getting up to size 4 (which you'd need to work both gold tiles and not starve to death) will take a while. Maybe 30 turns after you settle there you might be working the two gold mines, which is a really long time. You'd basically be sacrificing a 100-hammer settler to free up a 15-hammer Quechua.

1N of the lake is a small improvement. 1 tile closer to the capital, no border pop needed. Still slow to grow up to size-4, but probably a good 10 turns or so faster. That's like 150-200 more commerce.

My personal preference for getting those golds would be the plainshill 1W of the stone near Machu Picchu. It captures one gold right away, and the other is gonna be caught by Tiwanaku in about a dozen turns. Borrow the pigs from Cuzco long enough to grow to size-4. Take one floodplains tile from Machu Picchu, drop a farm on a grass riverside tile, build a pair of mines on the gold. There's a solid size-4 pocket city; floodplains cottage, grass farm, two gold mines. 6 hammers and around 20 commerce per turn pretty quickly.

The plainshill + fish city site is a nice one, and definitely rising near the top of the priority list. Chop a work boat, build a second work boat to go exploring the coastline south (hopefully hook up some other countries to your trading network), pasture the horses, build + whip a library, run horses, fish, 2x scientist maybe. The extra horse would let you trade with Cyrus, start building better diplomatic relations and maybe get something useful in return. Far west pigs are a bit of a stretch right now; I don't think your empire is ready for the logistics of making that city site productive yet. Maybe when you've got a few more military units and another half-dozen workers.

It's generally not good to whip wonders, because you get reduced rate of return. Whips normally give 30 hammers per population sacrificed, but with wonders it's only 20 per pop. However, there is a little micro trick that's good to take advantage of. Overflow hammers from whips can move into wonder production without penalty. For example, you could start an axeman in Cuzco 2 turns before you're ready to start Pyramids. Adjust the tiles Cuzco is working so, on that turn, it produces exactly 4 hammers. That way one turn before you start the wonder, your axeman is at 4/35 progress, with 31 hammers remaining. Because you get 30 hammers per pop, 31 hammers remaining requires a 2-pop whip. 29 of those hammers will be overflow and move onto starting your wonder next turn (plus however many hammers the city itself produces that turn). Pair that with the fact that you're an Industrious leader, have stone, and could chop a couple forests that turn as well, you might easily hit 200+ hammers on the very first turn of your starting Pyramids.

Theoretically, you'd hope to have a couple mines on hills near Cuzco, and there's nothing wrong with it growing up to size 5, 6, or 7 while making the wonder. But you're short on workers and it's not a huge priority; more important is improving the tiles your other cities need to be working, and chopping forests (chops will contribute to the wonder faster than mines will pay off).
 
When you move your last unassigned unit, all the units with assigned orders make their own moves immediately. The worker SW of Ollantaytambo finishes the cottage he has been told to build; the tile gains 2 commerce per turn. Hence, 2 more beakers.
That makes sense, thanks for figuring that out.

Fippy said:
Rejected demands often lead to war plotting, begs never do (just -1 diplo you refused to help us).
I did not know that. Thanks for sharing!

I was able to trade for IW, Meditation, Fishing, and Hunting. Now that I can work water tiles, I went ahead and built the fish/horses city. I have also built more workers and axes/chariots.

I finished the Pyramids in 525 BC, should I switch to Representation immediately?

Also, I have the option to convert to a few religions. I didn't want to go into anarchy while building the Pyramids, so I haven't adopted a state religion yet. Should I adopt one now?
 

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It doesn't matter as much on this level, but be careful about trading for the little dinky techs. AIs have trade caps (or limits if you will), so the more stuff you trade for the sooner you hit those caps. As you move up levels trading for important techs is critical so you don't want to hit those trade caps but trading or techs that at this point you can tech yourself in 1 or 2 turns if needed.

Capital is responsible for getting out at least the first 2 or 3 cities, often by whipping. It may whip a library or even some units if fighting a war early. You will generally get your first Great Scientist in your cap too by running two scientists asap. But soon you want to the cap to grow to happy cap and work cottages. The cap is your main research hub and will really bloom when you adopt Bureacracy.

I might even cottage riverside grass hills. You can mine other hills but mines are not a a priority in most cities over food and cottages.

Adopt a religion is not a necessity, but can be nice certainly with the civics. Make your choice based on the leaders you want to befriend vs. those you don't mind not liking you so much or at all. Religion obviously factors into diplo so make your decisions wisely or don't adopt at all. OR early can be very nice for buildings and especially wonders. Pacifism is huge mid-game for GPP, but you need to spread a religion if the AI is not doing so for you.

Generally a good idea to switch to Rep immediately especially if you are able to run scientists, and happiness is an issue. I usually do.
 
It's generally good to have a religion, but you need to weigh the diplomatic impact of it. Who are you befriending, who do you risk angering. It also helps to know the AI personalities pretty well for that decision. Religions tend to be the deciding feature for conflict between AIs. When AIs have differing religions, you get lots of wars between religious enemies. You might feel the need to stay in no religion in those circumstances if you don't want to risk angering either side, but often you pick the side that is closer / stronger / more reliable friends and join it. When every AI has the same religion, just adopt that religion. Each AI has its own personality which can help when making these decisions; there's a pretty good (albeit lengthy) article in the strategy articles section if you want a reference sheet about AI behaviors. "Know Your Enemy".

But it's not really necessary in this game, because everyone else is Buddhist; you should be too. In fact, simply adopting Buddhism gets Justinian and Cyrus immediately to Pleased status, at which point those AIs will no longer plan wars against you (some AIs will plot at Pleased, some won't; Justinian and Cyrus won't).

Representation immediately, for sure. Still need a bunch more workers, and you're at the point in the game where you really want to be letting cities grow up to happiness cap if you have enough improved tiles for them to work. Try to get some scientist specialists running in Cuzco, Machu Picchu, Tiwanaku since they've already got the libraries. A chariot or two exploring the continent now would be a good thing; you're going to want foreign trade pretty soon. Once you have Currency and enough workers, you can start thinking about more expansion.
 
I switched to Representation and Buddhism. You can adopt two civics while having only one turn of anarchy; is it possible to adopt one civic and a religion and only have one turn of anarchy?

Now that I have axes, would now be a good time to move my Q's into cities for more happiness, and use axes and chariots for spawnbusting?
 

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I played to turn 105/250 BC. I have built a lot more military units and workers, so I think that it would be good to continue expanding soon.

Spoiler Land to the South :

Sitting Bull is rather close to the SE. I don't see many good locations for another city east of the mountains. Maybe one next to the river to the west of the mountains? That city could have Iron, Incense, and Dye.
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Where should I settle in this area? Is it worth it to go around Cyrus and settle on the coast? Should I just claim as much of this area as possible?
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The barb city looks quite nice -- at least when it has expanded borders (pigs).

It's not terribly pretty, but if you want a city in the fairly big foodless area, one option could be on the desert hill NW of iron. It can get two floodplains at least, and maybe borrow the gold if the city working it has low food (or maybe that was your capital?).
 
There's a possible fish + banana jungle city east of the mountains, but given how slow jungle cities usually are to improve I often lean towards just letting the AIs take them, improve them for me, then conquering them away once the land is more usable.

West of the mountains, the iron-dye-incense city serves only two purposes. It fills land, and it gets useful resources for the rest of your empire. As a city itself, it contributes almost nothing (no surplus food, nothing to do without a border pop). The spot NW of Iron that Pangaea spotted is a better way to get the iron in a city that actually contributes a little bit, and you don't really need the incense or dye yet (maybe you could settle a deeper jungle spot for incense + dye + banana in the future). If you're intent on playing peacefully, I would in fact consider leapfrogging past Cyrus to take fish + corn to the far west. Barb city is worth conquering.

I see two clear paths at this point. Either thinking of settling just a few more cities to secure some resources, then rushing along towards Cuirassiers to conquer the continent. Or settling one more city to get Iron, researching Construction after Currency, and conquering Cyrus with catapults + swords.

Whichever you choose, you should definitely be running more scientist specialists. You've got three cities with libraries, and if it won't keep them from growing I'd try to run two scientists in each.
 
You could also settle on that iron...the issue being securing an iron resource if you have not already.

Honestly, settling cities would not be my priority. There may have been some decent cities in the Northern areas as well. But really you can settle at your leisure as I think you know how best to settle cities at this point. Main thing is fine tuning your city and worker management. Additionally, I would put focus on putting Alex out of his misery. Not sure what you meant by "building a lot of military units" but if you are doing that it should have a purpose.

Then focus on research goals and great folks so you can push to a desired victory result.
 
So what victory should I work towards? What criteria should I look for when deciding which victory to go for? Cuirs' speed advantage would seem to be worthwhile for a domination victory, but swords/catapults might be better for taking out one or two civs instead of the whole continent.
 
Still not sure why you don't have BUG/BULL active. I thought that you installed it.

Victory is up to you. You've set up a foundation to anything you want here. IMO, all this is more than about a victory, but rather working on the concepts and mechanics of the game.
 
I agree - sealing the victory is great but the foundation of improving your opening is the real win here. Victory condition is obviously up to you, but from the lens of doing it efficiently or early, you want to think about which condition you're best suited to meet. Or rather, which condition will be hardest for your opponents to beat / prevent. However, even with that in mind, you should go for what is fun to you, because it's a game after all. More often than not, multiple options are on the table, so don't feel compelled to go one way or another. With that in mind, here are my *opinions* on victory conditions:
  • For Pangaea or any map where all civs are on one landmass, most always domination or conquest is easiest, whichever happens first. By the time you have enough cities to outrace the AI to space (this only goes for higher difficulties), you have so much land, and a victory is not much further by military conquest anyways.
  • If an AI is lacking a key defensive military tech (e.g. feudalism, gunpowder, or rifling depending on the stage of the game) and you can be on their doorstep quickly, leveraging your military advantage usually makes sense.
  • If there are a lot of islands or multiple land masses in general, I might opt for space after conquering my continent. Oftentimes this makes sense to me as the AIs are not so great at naval warfare, which allows you more room for error.
  • Oftentimes, I will realize that a diplomatic victory is in reach and opt for that if it is cleaner than warring against a strong opponent. These types of wins usually come for me as I approach conquest / domination, as your vote alone is almost enough to win when you have 50% of the world's population.

You'll also want to consider your opponents' options for winning, and take action to prevent their conditions:
  • Spreading a religion or growing in population if an opponent threatens a diplomatic victory. This can especially be a worry if 2 - 3 civs get friendly with each other and you only have a city or two in the AP religion. Conquering the AP city is also a solution.
  • Similarly, conquering cities is necessary if an AI is threatening a culture victory. PS - I think BUG mod shows the turns to legendary in the victory condition screen (F8).
  • The only other victory AIs tend to gravitate towards is space, which is more of a slow burner and you can really see it coming.
 
Still not sure why you don't have BUG/BULL active. I thought that you installed it.
I know that I could have installed BUG/BULL in Custom Assets, but I installed it as a mod (after I started this game) so that I could play multiplayer without it. I'll use it the next that I play a SG.

Spoiler Victory :

I agree - sealing the victory is great but the foundation of improving your opening is the real win here. Victory condition is obviously up to you, but from the lens of doing it efficiently or early, you want to think about which condition you're best suited to meet. Or rather, which condition will be hardest for your opponents to beat / prevent. However, even with that in mind, you should go for what is fun to you, because it's a game after all. More often than not, multiple options are on the table, so don't feel compelled to go one way or another. With that in mind, here are my *opinions* on victory conditions:
  • For Pangaea or any map where all civs are on one landmass, most always domination or conquest is easiest, whichever happens first. By the time you have enough cities to outrace the AI to space (this only goes for higher difficulties), you have so much land, and a victory is not much further by military conquest anyways.
  • If an AI is lacking a key defensive military tech (e.g. feudalism, gunpowder, or rifling depending on the stage of the game) and you can be on their doorstep quickly, leveraging your military advantage usually makes sense.
  • If there are a lot of islands or multiple land masses in general, I might opt for space after conquering my continent. Oftentimes this makes sense to me as the AIs are not so great at naval warfare, which allows you more room for error.
  • Oftentimes, I will realize that a diplomatic victory is in reach and opt for that if it is cleaner than warring against a strong opponent. These types of wins usually come for me as I approach conquest / domination, as your vote alone is almost enough to win when you have 50% of the world's population.

You'll also want to consider your opponents' options for winning, and take action to prevent their conditions:
  • Spreading a religion or growing in population if an opponent threatens a diplomatic victory. This can especially be a worry if 2 - 3 civs get friendly with each other and you only have a city or two in the AP religion. Conquering the AP city is also a solution.
  • Similarly, conquering cities is necessary if an AI is threatening a culture victory. PS - I think BUG mod shows the turns to legendary in the victory condition screen (F8).
  • The only other victory AIs tend to gravitate towards is space, which is more of a slow burner and you can really see it coming.
I think that I will go for a space victory. From personal experience, with this good of a start, I probably could launch a spaceship in the mid-1900s. How much of the continent should I conquer before focusing only on researching the spaceship techs? Of course, I should conquer Alexander before he gets gunpowder. Would it be effective to just conquer Alexander and Cyrus, or should I go after the entire continent?


Spoiler Done spawnbusting? :

This Quechua was spawnbusting, but now SB has a city nearby. Is there any reason to keep this unit here? Should I put it back in my city for the happiness bonus?
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Spoiler Two cities :

The only two cities that I plan to build in the short term are one south of Tiwanaku for the iron and one south of Cuzco for the gold. How about these locations?
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Ah..yes..I remember you mentioning MP before. Note that you can simply install BUG/BULL in custom assets and then change the folder name by adding "-BUG" to the end. Game generates a new and fresh custom assets folder automatically. For me, I install Blue Marble in both bug and vanilla instances, and save the vanilla CA folder as such when I switch to the BUG version. Just rename the folder back to normal CA name to be active. If you keep a vanilla version like I do with blue marble graphics, first change the name to like "-VAN" or whatever, and then change the bug version to just CA.

With BULL, you can do something similar for the DLL file in the Assets folder. The dll file can be disabled by adding another extension like .original or .bull (I actually use .bat files to automatically switch my DLL from bull to vanilla version). I will attach the .bat files I use. You will just need to edit them in notepad to match the file path to that on your computer.

Yep that area is fine for barbs but you could keep him near the coast to bust for galleys
 

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Considering I recently "lost" a really good HoF game due to forgetting to change back the DLLs, I'd say that it's a good idea to keep BUG/BULL as a mod instead of installing it in customassets. It does make things a little more awkward when playing these forum games, but the downsides can be pretty darn massive as well, at least in my case.

That quechua is no longer needed btw. All the tiles are fogbusted. Either by the cities, or by the Q west of the mountain.

Hmm, looking at the picture again, maybe some tiles east of the cities, by the coast aren't fogbusted? Hard to tell exactly where his borders go when looking at a picture like that.
 
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