1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Monarchist Cookbook Game 3, Hammurabi of Babylon!

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Bleys, Jul 4, 2008.

  1. schwartz

    schwartz King

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2008
    Messages:
    823
    Location:
    Detroit, MI, USA
    Writing this from my "report" computer (aka, my MacBook) so no save, atm (EDIT: Added now. Sorry for the lack of screens, for some reason none of them took.)
    Spoiler :
    I focused on getting the GLH and GW finished ASAP and also cranking out a couple of workers. I managed to build both wonders pretty quickly and soon after, popped a merchant in Babylon at very low odds. Well, I saw that he would pop MC, and colossus has a nice synergy with GLH, so.. I went for that, and it's close to completion now.
    I turned Akkad into a commerce city with some cottages along the river and got a couple workers up near Gems city clearing out that jungle. Got a settler out between GLH and Colossus (Forge let the cap grow to size 8) and settled SE on the 2 sheep location (coastal). Teched through currency and going for CoL at this point. We're the tech leader among known AIs.
    EDIT: Finished up, got Colossus, but Tokugawa settled ON the iron, so the position is terrible, that's what I get for wonder-chasing... Here's a 400 AD save anyway, despite that my round will not be chosen :lol:
    If I were to actually play my game out, I'd be using a music gambit and trying to flip the Japanese city on the Iron by settling on the opposite side then either settling or culture bombing.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Winston Hughes

    Winston Hughes Wrathful Warlock Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,735
    Location:
    A state of unquenchable rage
    I finished a turn early, as there are a couple of decisions to make. It'll take me a while to do the report, but here's some screenies and the save:

    Spoiler :














     

    Attached Files:

  3. schwartz

    schwartz King

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2008
    Messages:
    823
    Location:
    Detroit, MI, USA
    @WH:
    Spoiler :
    Wow, looks excellent. Did you get the GLH?
     
  4. Winston Hughes

    Winston Hughes Wrathful Warlock Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,735
    Location:
    A state of unquenchable rage
    @schwartz

    Spoiler :
    Yes, I finished it in 575bc. But I took a big risk in leaving it that late. I had my reasons, though...
     
  5. Bleys

    Bleys Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    2,573
    Location:
    Upstate, NY
    Nice looking round Winston, I think you got me beat by a long shot.
     
  6. ranion

    ranion Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2007
    Messages:
    99
    Location:
    Victoria, BC
    good job Winston, can't wait to see the detailed report.
     
  7. Winston Hughes

    Winston Hughes Wrathful Warlock Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,735
    Location:
    A state of unquenchable rage
    Here it is:

    Spoiler :
    As eagle-eyed readers of the screenshots posted above will have noticed, I took a rather large gamble at the beginning of this turnset.

    I spent about half an hour just staring at the map, checking all the little details, and mulling things over. Then...



    My thinking was that, with Toku having only just settled to the NW, I could get another settler up to claim the gems in time. And, with IW still a fair way off, I could really use a workable third city in the meantime.

    But this was a double gamble: since I had to get a new settler built asap, I could end up missing the GLh as well as the gems city. So this was one of those occasions where I felt the need to slow it right down, and concentrate very carefully on my micro decisions.

    1500bc (turn 100) Switch Akkad build to Worker.

    1450bc (102) Pottery complete. Tech IW.

    1375bc (105) GW complete. Babylon starts Lighthouse. Dur-K settled. Dur-K starts Monument.



    1325bc (107) Whip worker in Akkad.

    1300bc (108) Lighthouse done in Bablyon (next: GLh). Worker done in Akkad (next: Granary).

    1275bc (109) Babylon switches to Settler (chop).

    1250bc (110) Babylon continues GLh (growth).

    1200bc (112) Babylon continues Settler.

    1150bc (114) Monument done in Dur-K (next: Worker).

    1075bc (117) Settler done in Babylon (next: Worker).

    1050bc (118) Whip Worker in Babylon.

    1025bc (119) Worker done in Babylon (continue GLh).

    950bc (122) Nippur settled. Nippur starts Monument. Akkad whips Granary.



    Damn that was close! :woohoo:

    925bc (123) IW complete. Tech Writing. Granary done in Akkad (next: Galley).

    825bc (127) Worker done in Dur-K (next: Granary).

    650bc (134) Writing complete. Tech Mathematics.

    625bc (135) Galley done in Akkad (next: Barracks)

    600bc (136) Whip Monument in Nippur. Whip GLh in Babylon. (Yes, I was that worried about missing it ;) ).

    575bc (137) Monument done in Nippur (next: Library). Great Lighthouse complete. Babylon starts Barracks. :woohoo: :woohoo:

    525bc (139) Barracks done in Babylon (next: Sword).

    455bc (143) Barracks done in Akkad (next: Axe). Granary done in Dur-K (next: Barracks).

    440bc (144) Whip Axe in Akkad.

    425bc (145) Sword done in Babylon (next: Sword). Axe done in Akkad (next: Axe).

    395bc (147) Axe done in Akkad (next: Bowman). Barracks done in Dur-K (next: Bowman).

    I now had enough units on the way to capture the barb city, Burgundian. I used my Galley to ferry them over a bit quicker:



    After delivering the troops, the Galley went off to explore the mysterious east.

    350bc (150) Sword done in Babylon (next: Library).

    335bc (151) Mathematics complete. Tech Construction.

    320bc (152) Bowman done in Dur-K (next: Bowman). Whip Library in Babylon.

    305bc (153) Library done in Babylon (next: Axe). Burgundian captured. Burgundian starts Granary.



    One Axe died (at about 65%). I chose to keep it, since HC would surely steal the spot otherwise, and I didn't want to waste time on a Settler. This is me in full warmonger mode - screw the long-term, I've got a Tokufish to fry... :ninja:

    On that note, the conquest cash helped to speed up Construction, the first of my two tech targets.

    290bc (154) Buddhism spreads to me. I convert straight away, to curry favour with the eastern block.

    260bc (156) Bowman done in Akkad (next: Library).

    245bc (157) Kublai goes recon crazy:



    Three scouts?! And it's not even like he could've popped one from a hut. Idiot.

    230bc (158) Bowman done in Dur-K (next: Axe).

    215bc (159) Great Merchant is born in Babylon.

    At first I was disappointed not to get the GSpy I had been expecting - I'd planned to use him to scope out Japanese territory in advance of my invasion.

    Then I realised that the GM could bulb Currency - a bonus trade route in every city, a step towards CoL and CS, and a chance to beg cash from my Buddhist buddies. :yumyum:

    170bc (162) Axe done in Babylon (next: Settler).

    Two interesting developments here. Firstly, Darius has enough on his hands - could I be his target? Secondly, guess which AI was first to Alphabet...



    :lol: Is there no limit to his foolishness?

    155bc (163) Construction complete. Tech HBR. Axe done in Dur-K (next: Cat).

    110bc (166) Whip Library in Akkad. Whip Granary in Burgundian.

    95bc (167) Settler done in Babylon (next: Cat). Library done in Akkad (next: Cat). Granary done in Burgundian (next: Library).

    65bc (169) Horseback Riding complete. Tech Alphabet. Cat done in Dur-K (next: Cat). Galley destroyed by barb Galley. Borsippa settled. Borsippa starts Granary.



    (I forgot to take a screenie when I settled it).

    50bc (170) Whip Cat in Babylon.

    35bc (171) Cat done in Babylon (next: Stable).

    5bc (173) Library done in Nippur (next: Ele)

    10ad (174) Cat done in Dur-K (next: Ele)

    25ad (175) Alphabet complete. Tech CoL.

    Over the next few turns I traded for Meditation, Polytheism, Priesthood, and Monarchy, whilst maintaining a very healty lead.

    At this time I also came into contact with the fifth AI, and the cause of Darius' WHEOOHRN:



    He's already captured Susa. I briefly gifted Iron to Darius to help fend off the Zulu - we don't want that guy getting too powerful...

    40ad (176) Stable done in Babylon (next: Ele). Switch to Workboat in Burgundian. Whip Granary in Borsippa.

    55ad (177) Granary done in Borsippa (next: Barracks). Whip Workboat in Burgundian.

    70ad (178) Workboat done in Burgundian (continue Library). Shaka and Darius make peace.

    85ad (179) Ele done in Dur-K (next: Ele).

    100ad (180) Kublai proves the world is round. Whip Ele in Nippur. Switch to Axe in Akkad.

    115ad (181) Code of Laws complete. Tech CS. Ele done in Dur-K (next: Cat). Ele done in Nippur (next: Bowman). Whip Axe in Akkad.

    130ad (182) Ele done in Babylon (next: Ele). Axe done in Akkad (continue Cat).

    145ad (183) Cat done in Akkad (next: Lighthouse). Cat done in Dur-K (next: Ele). Library done in Burgundian (next: Temple). Whip Ele in Babylon.

    160ad (184) Ele done in Babylon (next: Granary). Whip Ele in Dur-K.

    175ad (185) Ele done in Dur-K (next: Axe).

    190ad (186) Axe done in Dur-K (next: Cat). DoW against Toku:



    205ad (187) My stack at Tokyo, and reinforcements on the way:



    Tokyo is captured with no casualties:



    Tokyo starts Monument.

    250ad (190) Bowman done in Nippur (next: Bowman).

    Kyoto is captured.



    This time I lost a Cat and a Sword, the latter at about 95%. :mad:

    Kyoto starts Monument.

    265ad (191) Barracks done in Borsippa (next: Bowman).

    280ad (192) Whip Monument in Tokyo.

    295ad (193) Cat done in Dur-K (next: Ele). Monument done in Tokyo (next: Barracks).

    310ad (194) Granary done in Babylon (next: Ele). Lighthouse done in Akkad (next: Cat). Bowman done in Borsippa (next: Cat).

    325ad (185) Civil Service complete. Tech Monotheism. Bowman done in Nippur (next: Granary). Whip Cat in Borsippa.

    Osaka is captured with the loss of one Cat:



    I kept it, and started on a Monument. My first GG was born during the attack, but I've yet to do anything with him.

    After taking the third city, I decided to take peace with Toku:



    It was a tough choice, and would cost us another demerit with the Buddhists if we chose to attack again (which I almost certainly would). But it did give me a chance to heal, and to get some reinforcements (esp. Cats) in position without worrying about counter-attacks. The cash is nice as well.

    340ad (196) Monotheism complete. Cat done in Borsippa. (next: Cat). Whip Cat in Akkad. Adopt HR, Bureaucracy and OR - 3 turns of Anarchy.

    395ad (199) Anarchy ends.

    This is where I decided to stop. There's a GG waiting to be used, and there are several different tech paths we could take. And, with 6 turns left of enforced peace with Toku, there's time to position the troops for another attack (if so desired).
     
  8. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

    Joined:
    May 19, 2006
    Messages:
    13,818
    Location:
    Lisbon, Portugal
    Another one for discussion.....
    Spoiler :
    Ok, bleys had left us with a wall to do, a city to settle and a lot of places to settle/conquer... I would had prefered a big lighthouse, but barbs are a probable nuinsance....

    Anyway, city on the gems
    Spoiler :

    I had luck and Budhism spreaded to this city some turns later. Good to fight the culture war for the gems with Mr jer... Toku:
    Spoiler :

    Converted next turn when it spreaded to Akkad:
    Spoiler :

    After this HC entered in missionary frenzy ;)

    A city to grab phants and wheat. By acident it had iron ;) . If you noticed well, GW is already done
    Spoiler :

    Another wonder bites the dust, this one highly desired:
    Spoiler :

    it took a little longer because i wanted to grab this before HC:
    Spoiler :

    BTW got a GSpy. Settled in capital:
    Spoiler :

    First demand of mr jerk. I think he's starting to deserve some rocks in top of him....
    Spoiler :


    Spoiler :

    Nice timing.... i didn't wanted to found confu anyway. Later darius adopted it , but he wasn't the founder. My bet on izzy behind Darius still holds ;)

    Some more cities:
    Spoiler :





    BTW two things that I'm not sure that are evident in the screenies: Toku got Budhist ( via HC missionary ) and KK circumnavigated. Given my previous knowledge of the map, we're in a long continent in the southern hemisphere with 6 civs. Probably a island with one civ playing LHC somewhere in the north.

    Some intel:
    Spoiler :







    My plan is to tech up and make a war with toku when he starts to fade as he normally does and then turn east to HC..... that I bet that is going AP, given is budhist zeal.
     
  9. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2006
    Messages:
    5,724
    Hey everyone, I will be boxing my computer up in the morning and won't be unpacked until at least Thurs (I am moving Wed), so count me out for this round, but back in for the next one! :)
     
  10. Winston Hughes

    Winston Hughes Wrathful Warlock Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,735
    Location:
    A state of unquenchable rage
    @ranion:

    Bad luck on missing the GLh. I completed it the turn after you missed it, and rolo seems to have built it even later. Still, it's a lesson learned, I think - if it's that important, and if there's any doubt whether you'll get it in time, then break out the whip. :whipped:

    Edit: btw, I can't see a save...

    @PickledDictator

    Don't be embarrassed to have a go at playing and posting a turnset. When I was a struggling on Monarch I joined in on a couple of games that some Immortal and Deity players had started. I totally got my arse handed to me (both by the AI and the other players), but I learnt a hell of a lot from playing along with those guys.
     
  11. PickledDictator

    PickledDictator Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2008
    Messages:
    117
    Thanks to all for the encouragement!!! This has been a joy to read. A couple of questions and statements regarding your choices Winston Hughes.
    Your move up to Tokugawa was a classic, perhaps a smidgen of luck there, I can only think of the cursing that would have been involved had you missed the city site and in turn, missed the GLH because of it :)

    You kept the barb city, which was smart, and they actually built it in a decent location (probably why you kept it, but why did you back fill with Borsipa? Is it only to keep the cities connected by a continuous cultural barrier? After all, there are NO resources there or was there more strategy to it? I suppose anyone can answer these not so simple questions for me. :)

    also, just north of the capital, you have TWO cities which are very close together, Akkad and Dur-K. Why was Dur-K settled when Akkad could handle all the resources in the area already? Seems to me those two cities are awfully tightly packed? Is this to only save on corruption costs?

    Another question, sorry! You state that taking another city would cost us demerits with the Buddhists if we chose to attack again. Could you explain why?

    Thanks to all for the answers and keep it up, loving this game.
     
  12. Winston Hughes

    Winston Hughes Wrathful Warlock Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,735
    Location:
    A state of unquenchable rage
    :lol: A big pile of luck, and an even bigger pile of incredibly careful micromanagement.

    Borsippa has two food resources and a load of hills, making it a decent military production city. It also overlaps with Burgandian, meaning it can help to grow cottages for the latter, which will make a strong science/gold city in the long-term (with heavy use of the whip in the meantime).

    Maintenance wasn't a major consideration, although settling Dur-K down there, instead of up by the gems, probably saved me a bit of gold early on.

    The main reason I chose that particular spot is that it gave me access to hills and irrigable grassland, making it a powerful production city in both the short and long term.

    That it also allowed me to connect the Elephants quicker, and saved me building a Monument in Akkad (thus letting me get another worker out a bit earlier), was a nice bonus.

    I was also able to switch tiles between the two cities as each was whipped, or waited for whip :mad: to fade, saving on worker turns and maximising my use of the food-positive tiles.

    Akkad has been left looking a bit weak for the future, but it'll still have enough food to make a valuable contribution.

    Thanks to their shared religion, HC and Kublai are Pleased with Toku, meaning I got a -1 modifier with each of them when I declared on him the first time.

    Unless their attitudes towards him deteriorate in the meantime, the next DoW against Toku will have the same effect.
     
  13. rddc05

    rddc05 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    292
    Location:
    Florida
    That was extremely well done Winston. I thought I did a fair amount of whipping, but I guess a lot of it was for buildings. A couple of questions regarding the whipping on your turnset:

    1. Did you always/almost always try to two pop whip for the overflow hammers?
    2. Did you usually whip right near the finish of barracks/lighthouses to get the max overflow on double hammers?

    A lot of different ways to potentially go if this is the save for the next set. There are definitely some positives in the other saves, but this has to be the one to beat so far.

    Edit: Just thought of one more question. Can you kind of generally describe the mm you were doing? I see where you talk about sharing tiles between Akkad and Dur-K. Can you give an example of how you did this to such a significant advantage (there or any other city)?

    Thanks!
     
  14. ranion

    ranion Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2007
    Messages:
    99
    Location:
    Victoria, BC

    yeah, i didn't break out the whip mainly because up until the turn i lost it i figured i had it. normally it goes 'pretty late' because it takes a while to build, and i thought i had caught it up a bit with my chops and tile micro but i was obviously out a bit. the fact also that you got it the turn after i would have, and rolo got it even later than that.... well just goes to show that the rng was not with me this round. losing it really threw my plans off, and in checking how much i missed it by i screwed up my tech path a bit. ah well whats done is done, and it wont effect anything in the long run because we'll be running with a different save. the beauty of this game style, right? :lol:

    also: for what its worth i edited my save onto my report post just to mess with your head a bit...
     
  15. Bleys

    Bleys Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    2,573
    Location:
    Upstate, NY
    I will offer my answers to these.
    The value of a 2-pop whip over a 1-pop whip isnt in the overflow hammers, they are basically the same either way (well, in most cases, there are some funky situations). Its primary value is in the unhappiness-to-population ratio. 1-pop whip at the cap, about to go over, and you are right back where you started, about to go over the cap, but with 1 less population because of the unhappiness. 2-pop whipping costs the same as a 1-pop as far as the unhappiness, but you get a sort of "extra" pop you can grow right back from it. Not sure that makes perfect sense, but if you think about it, you should see what I mean. Theres more to it, check out vales article about whipping if you really want some cool insights, but thats the basic difference, the fact that multi-pop whips cost the same amount of unhappiness as a 1-pop whip.

    They fixed this exploit, so now, there is a calculation done to reduce the hammers back to what they normally would be for the next build. For example, you have a LH with 80 hammers in it, and whip for 1, you get 90 hammers for the ORG leader, so 10 of those are used to finish off the LH, but the other 80 are reduced to their "actual" 40 if the next build isnt a double-production building.

    Personally, I like whipping INTO the double production buildings, for example, I build a Granary, and have 3 hammers left to finish it, so I 1-pop whip, and the remaining 42 hammers get doubled if the next building is a doubler. I find it easier to micro-manage the build before a double than the actual doubler building itself.
     
  16. PickledDictator

    PickledDictator Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2008
    Messages:
    117
    Winston interesting choices and info on the multiple cities working each others BFC tiles. While it makes perfect sense now, I just assumed that until you had popped your BFC in both cities, tiles outside of the first ring were off limits. Amazing the things you learn about this game! Avoiding the early monument is a huge time saver, thanks for pointing that out.

    As far as Borispa is concerned, I thought from most of the strategy articles I have perused here that if specials were not in the making that one should skip those sites, especially in the early game (1-5 cities). Evidently I was wrong. Now I have a better idea of how to set up "other potential production cities". Most guides tell you to use the first city with metals/horses as your early production city and I tended to follow that. These city placements indicate a playing the cards you are dealt hand. This may be one of the reasons I struggle on this level because I don't have enough military.

    I misinterpreted the demerit point system. I understood it as taking just one more city and taking the hit. I didn't realize that you meant DOW again at a later time. That part I already knew. Thanks though.

    Bleys, Thanks for explaining the hammer overflow 2pop vs 1pop. I too have read these guides, but didn't fully understand it. Especially the part about double value buildings. Now I do!!!!!

    And finally one question, was the WW that bad? Why even bother to leave the Greeks in the game. I understand healing is required, but isn't it better to push the advantage and wipe him off OUR land??? Ooops, how can it be our land, I am not even playing, but you know what I mean ;)

    If I were to tackle this game just for giggles, since I know a lot of what has happened, I assume to post, I should pick up at this point, or after this round?

    I finally found BUG MOD after a futile attempt.

    Ok, bit of a noob, i have no idea how to quote :( perhaps a link somewhere or quick explanation is in order on that then I can look semi pro.
     
  17. Bleys

    Bleys Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    2,573
    Location:
    Upstate, NY
    Thats a good general guideline, but the key here is the GLH. The city is coastal, so it gets 2 free trade routes, which makes it nearly "break even" on maintenance out of the box, before a single hammer is even spent there. The GLH is one of the best wonders in the game, especially if your looking at a lot of coastal areas to settle, because it funds your expansion for you. Having an ORG leader with the GLH is even bigger, since the cheap courthouses are ideal for making the maintenance drop and with the extra TRs, cities can start turning a profit very quickly. Currency and Compass are also nice techs, for the trade routes and buildings they open up.

    Without the GLH, grabbing less-optimal city sites can be very damaging to your economy, so you need to avoid those under-powered cities until you can afford them. In this case, we can basically look at any coastal city and if it has some food, its worth settling as soon as you can. With FIN civs, its almost hard to crash your economy at Monarch if you can settle enough coastal cities. Cant build settlers fast enough, heh.
     
  18. Mukuu

    Mukuu Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 18, 2008
    Messages:
    81
    This should help a bit. Also, in the bottom right corner of everybody's post, is a quote button.

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/misc.php?do=bbcode

    Getting the GLH was definitely a key moment for WH and Rolo. Nice work! Not sure how you guys got it so late... but Hey!

    Spoiler :
    With Shaka on the horizon, and with no real idea on what he is up to, I think the time to start massive warring is now. Toku and Darius need to fall so thier land can be gobbled up before Shaka gets it.
     
  19. ranion

    ranion Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2007
    Messages:
    99
    Location:
    Victoria, BC
    part of me wonders what the hell HC was doing in your games that he wasn't in mine (or vice versa) that let you guys get the GLH, especially rolo, you finished yours in 470BC, I lost mine just after 600BC. he must have thrown another settler on the queue or something at some point. vexes me, I wonder how it would have effected my tech choices and expansion ideas. I only ever go into a round with a vague idea of where I want to go rather than a concrete plan, even in offline games i sorta wing it and make it up as I go along based on what I'm given. what about you guys, how much of a plan do you make before a round, and how much room do you leave for things as they come up?
     
  20. PickledDictator

    PickledDictator Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2008
    Messages:
    117
    Would it be safe to say then, that playing Gilgamesh with his early and cheap courthouses and the GLH on a water start means REX (as long as civs are not close enough for a rush)?
    Nuts no color when I quote. Thanks for the link Muuu, saved it to play with it on a rainy day. But I don't to waste everyone's time, so I do have another question?

    Why did you not settle or send the GM on a trade mission, rather you used him to bulb. Wouldn't the money have come in handy to run deficit research? Seems to me the trade off would be better in the long run
     

Share This Page