Monarchist Cookbook Game 3, Hammurabi of Babylon!

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Bleys, Jul 4, 2008.

  1. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

    Joined:
    May 19, 2006
    Messages:
    13,818
    Location:
    Lisbon, Portugal
    I can't talk for winston, but in my game, HC settled 2 cities towards me and entered in missionary frenzy ( really, until now I saw 5 missionary from him ). And I think he was preparing to take that barb city as well....

    Either way I had enough forests to chop it if needed.

    But you got a point: the wonders are falling down very slowly ( I'm not sure , but I think that the Mids are still open in my game ). the land is not that good, so it is probably not that surprising.
     
  2. Winston Hughes

    Winston Hughes Wrathful Warlock Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,735
    Location:
    A state of unquenchable rage
    I'm sure that Bleys answered these better than I could. My understanding of the theory is pretty weak in comparison. I guess I've just got a feel for what works and what doesn't, having played so much civ over the years. Still, I'll have at go a explaining how I do it...

    Generally, my whipping cycles are determined by happiness, growth and the tiles available.

    I want high value tiles (like the clams or the plains iron) to be worked at all times, so I usually wouldn't whip away the citizens working those, unless I had another city that could take over the tile. For lesser tiles (ie. those without improved resources), I'll quite happily whip the citizens, so long as it still leaves me enough food to regrow nice and quick.

    The aim is to work as many (decent) tiles as possible, whilst getting stuff built. The latter is achieved by some combination of working hammer tiles and whipping, with the exact balance depending on what tiles the city has available. For cities with lots of food but few hammer tiles (eg. Akkad), I'll look to run specialists or cottages as it reaches the happy cap. For cities with plenty of hammers (eg. Dur-K), I'll work mines/workshops as it reaches the cap.

    Another thing to consider is immediate need vs. ongoing efficiency.

    If there's a clear advantage to getting something built now, then it often makes sense to ignore the more efficient whipping cycle. The most obvious examples are when you need a unit at the front line asap, or when you're worried about missing out on a wonder (direct whipping of wonders is highly inefficient, iirc, which is why Bleys and others like to dump whip overflow into them instead).

    If, on the other hand, you can afford to wait a little for the build in question, then you can get a higher total output from your city over the course of a whip cycle.

    This is pretty complicated, situational, and hard to explain (at least for me). But I'll do my best...

    In this case, I had three cities (Babylon, Akkad and Dur-K) in an overlap chain, which allowed me to rearrange the tiles across all three to maximise growth, hammers and, to a lesser extent, commerce.

    The best example I can think of (and I'm not sure if this ever actually occurred) is as follows:

    Dur-K has grown to happy cap using the grassland farms it shares with Akkad, but is waiting for whip :mad: to fade before whipping again. At this time it stops using the farms and switches to the mines (at least as far as food allows - though I may let it starve off some stored food).

    Meanwhile, Babylon has been whipped to well below the happy cap, and so needs to regrow as fast as possible. At this time, it is only working two of the clams, as Akkad has the third one.

    At the same time, Akkad has reached its happy cap with several turns of whip :mad: still to go, but still needs some food to keep filling up the food bar whilst running a couple of scientists.

    So, by switching the farms from Dur-K to Akkad, and the clams from Akkad to Babylon, I can give each city what it needs to be going on with.

    Since the food positive land is relatively scarce around here, and since I'm always looking to cut down on worker turns early on, I think this use of overlapping cities has proved quite effective so far. The payoff, of course, is the long term value of Akkad, which will probably end up with none of the overlapping tiles (except perhaps some coasts).

    I hope that makes sense... ;)
     
  3. Winston Hughes

    Winston Hughes Wrathful Warlock Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,735
    Location:
    A state of unquenchable rage
    The strategy articles offer a lot of good 'cookie-cutter' advice for the beginner.

    But, imo, as you move to higher levels you need to be more flexible (ie. more focused on exploiting the map conditions), so the articles are more useful for learning little tricks that can be used when the situation is right.

    It's true that claiming different resources is a important consideration when settling a new city. But whether it's worth going for an otherwise weak site (which usually means one with little food potential), depends on how much you need the resources.

    My policy tends to be: If in doubt, go for the food.

    hehe, I'm pretty sure I didn't suffer any WW. You may be right that continuing the war would've been a better policy, and on a higher level I might well have done so (mainly to keep up relations with HC and KK).

    But I didn't want to end the round with my troops in enemy territory, and I wanted to offer players the chance to co-ordinate the next attack (if any) as they saw fit, rather than dictating it myself. The chance to heal, regroup, and add some more units to the mix (possibly creating two stacks for the next offensive) offers a bit more flexibility.

    Besides, the costs of taking peace were pretty small. Toku looks screwed, and I'm pretty sure we could finish him off at our leisure, while neither HC or KK poses any real threat in the short/medium-term, and I'm confident of being able to keep up relations in any case.

    If you want to play out a shadow of this round, then go for it. Alternatively, wait until the end of the week and join us in the next round. Your choice! :)
     
  4. Mukuu

    Mukuu Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 18, 2008
    Messages:
    81
    That all depends on style of play. Many players feel that any short term advantage quickly grows into a long. It all comes down to personal choice, and playing style. As far as bulbing goes, here are the formulas for it, just to help you out.

    GS - 1500 + 3(total pop)
    Others 1000 + 2(total pop)

    EDIT: Thats "beakers" and you need to scale it a little for difficulty...

    Heres the code (Thanks to DanF5771)

    Code:
    int CvUnit::getDiscoverResearch(TechTypes eTech) const
    
    	iResearch = (m_pUnitInfo->getBaseDiscover() + (m_pUnitInfo->getDiscoverMultiplier() * GET_TEAM(getTeam()).getTotalPopulation()));
    
    	iResearch *= GC.getGameSpeedInfo(GC.getGameINLINE().getGameSpeedType()).getUnitDiscoverPercent();
    	iResearch /= 100;
    	...
    Personally, I tend not to bulb unless I break a minimum, but, one of the greatest things about Civ is that the same game is never played twice. There is ALWAYS a good situation to do something different. Different races can be pretty good targets for bulbing, along with getting a jump start on wonders... One thing I can recommend NOT to do, is bulbing for the sake of using your GP. For example, I have seen MANY times people use their GS to bulb Scientific Method... and then not research it for 30-50 turns. I think it is important to use your GP to what will give you the best advantage. In the above example, it would PROBABLY be better just to wait 30-50 turns before bulbing... you NEVER know what is going to happen.
     
  5. ranion

    ranion Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2007
    Messages:
    99
    Location:
    Victoria, BC
    my HC dropped the mids at some point too, you should be able to see them in one of my screenies that has Tiwanaku in it. Damn pain in my ass wonderhog. :lol:
     
  6. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

    Joined:
    May 19, 2006
    Messages:
    13,818
    Location:
    Lisbon, Portugal
    Well, if he's making wonders, he's not making troops :devil:
     
  7. ranion

    ranion Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2007
    Messages:
    99
    Location:
    Victoria, BC
    i'm well aware of this fact, the only thing thats currently keeping me from taking the wonders is that the reinforcements hadn't arrived by the time the round ended.

    i took out his only supplies of metals before he had any real chance to do anything with them too so he cant even defend himself with better than archers. :mischief:
     
  8. rddc05

    rddc05 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    292
    Location:
    Florida
    @Bleys and Winston:

    Thanks for your detailed replies. I do understand the advantage of 2 pop whipping and was curious as to whether it is "always better" and under what circumstances it is less than optimum. Your posts helped me get a better handle on that.

    I didn't know they had fixed the "exploit" about whipping trait buildings, thanks for that info (now that I think about it, when I did it a couple of times in my game I didn't get the results I was looking for. Whipping into the building is def. the better option.

    And the MM example was perfect, just what I was looking for.

    I'm better at civ now, thanks!
     
  9. Bleys

    Bleys Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    2,573
    Location:
    Upstate, NY
    Thats our main goal for doing this. Actually, my main goal is to make myself a better player, and doing reports and turns in a situation like this improves my game a LOT. Just seeing what choices others made helps me make better choices the next time.
     
  10. Winston Hughes

    Winston Hughes Wrathful Warlock Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,735
    Location:
    A state of unquenchable rage
    Would any of you guys consider yourselves to be warmongers?

    I only ask because I'm struggling to understand why no-one else went for HBR.

    Are War Elephants (amphibious or otherwise :rolleyes: ) not awesome?
     
  11. rddc05

    rddc05 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    292
    Location:
    Florida
    I'm definitely a builder through and through. It took me several frustrating defeats before I finally understood that I had to keep my power rating up on Monarch games. If I were an AI leader, OR would be my favorite civic. :lol:
     
  12. Bleys

    Bleys Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    2,573
    Location:
    Upstate, NY
    I was planning to trade for it next turn, especially because both Toku and Darius have horses (have seen Immortals, and Toku has a city on the horses, but I tend to delay this tech and trade for it. I am not much of a "Cats and Swords" rushing guy, its either Axes and Chariots or I wait for Trebs and Maces. HBR is one of those in-between techs for me in those situations, and while I do build HAs and Eles, I probably dont utilize them as well as I could.
     
  13. ranion

    ranion Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2007
    Messages:
    99
    Location:
    Victoria, BC
    i'm half done hbr, i got hung up on some other stuff and missing the glh slowed me down. i had originally intended to do math -> construction & currency followed by HBR but by the time i realized i had clicked alphabet on my reload from checking how close my GLH was i was 15 turns into it and it was too late to go back and fix it.

    and hephalumps are indeed awesome
     
  14. PickledDictator

    PickledDictator Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2008
    Messages:
    117
    My sentiments exactly. HBR is simply not one of those techs I prioritize as I go off on a tangent likely looking for "better" techs. I always associate HBR with horse archers, which IMO suck and HBR can be such an expensive tech.

    Unlike all other civ series games where I could win with relative ease, CIV IV has given me fits. I assume I am just not specializing my cities, my tech choices, and building enough military in games where I lose.

    Plus getting over the fear of being behind, and smaller, is well....an adjustment.
     
  15. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    26,068
    Horse archers suck!?

    What a terrible joke...

    They let you engage a fully classical war against someone who has gotten Xbows...they pretty much let you wage classical war until the opponent can field maces (shock HA's do pretty well against unpromoted maces but I'm assuming even the AI can manage promos on maces) or knights...

    They also flank siege.

    Seriously, shock HA's own all melee but spears easily, combat II HA's will beat xbows and longbows in the field with consistency, and flanking HA's are very useful when attacking a city that has 1-2 very heavily promoted CG troops - attack those with a much better chance than cat survival, THEN go with the CR II pults.

    All that and they move well too. It's an easy tech to research after economy techs and can often be traded for, what's not to like?

    It's almost as ridiculous as saying cuirassers are bad...
     
  16. Mukuu

    Mukuu Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 18, 2008
    Messages:
    81
    Actually, I tend not to prioritize Horse Archers as much as I should... unless there is a readily available horse resource. BUT, I think one of the main advantages of HBR is that the AI heavily favors that tech, and it is beautiful for tech trading. Even if the AI has NO horses near them, they will still trade good for this tech.
     
  17. PickledDictator

    PickledDictator Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2008
    Messages:
    117
    Well you certainly make a good case for them. I will have to try them out again and get back to you on it!
     
  18. Bleys

    Bleys Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    2,573
    Location:
    Upstate, NY
    I sure dont think HAs suck, but we dont have horses, and Hephs take HBR and Construction, with Construction being such an important priority, I went there first (traded for it first, that is)

    If we had Horses, I probably would have teched HBR myself, or traded for it earlier, because I love Stables, and I use HAs to flank attacking AIs and pillage metals and stuff. As I said though, I probably under-utilize them. In fact, your older posts about Flanking made me start using them more, TMIT.
     
  19. PickledDictator

    PickledDictator Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2008
    Messages:
    117
    Ok, let me clarify what I meant. I meant that for attacking cities I think they suck because by the time you get them, I have found city defenses too strong to use them on their own.....as opposed to early axes/swords etc. However, like I said, I am a struggling Monarch player who seems to have issues with warring correctly in CIV IV, which is why I am here.

    *waits to be flamed again*
     
  20. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    26,068
    I came off too strongly before - the intention isn't to flame but instead defend one of my favorite units ;).

    They're quite good with flanking vs cities since they have a 50% chance of survival even when badly outclassed - bts also removed their city attack penalty. Don't forget they're immune to first strikes so archer drill means nothing to they (nor does its initial first strike that exists on all archers).

    I use mounted troops in 2 different ways:

    dedicated mounted blitz attacks ----> Usually against weaker sizewise or techwise opponents, you can just mass up HA/knights/cuirassers/cavalry and charge through ignoring everything (spies help if you can swing them). Most HA's get withdrawal, one gets medic, some get C2 or shock. You blow through 3-5 cities before the AI can react, flanking tough defenders and then cleaning up with other promotions (wait to promote other than a few shock guys to protect your stack). This is best with cuirassers/cavalry (when espionage can actually be applied) or against people without metal.

    Stack mix ----> They protect you from xbows, flank siege, etc. Also a very solid and interesting use of them as part of a mixed stack is that they'll tend to draw axes rather than archers, meaning that unless you have a perfectly mixed AI classical stack (the AI usually doesn't preemptively build spears, either) you can use the HA's to get rid of axes then clean up with CR swords or some such. Of course, if you don't have any metal at all, they allow you to go HA/cat/archer and still attack effectively.

    It should be noted that their access to flanking as well as instant access to 5 xp makes them quite versatile - they will beat anything in the classical age except spears/elephants in the field.

    A couple old monarch games for me like PYL I, Cam H's churchill rpc and several other pangaea formats I'd use them as an exclusive attack unit - if there were a way to deal with walls/culture D earlier on and still retain the 2 movement point advantage I'd still use them exclusively on emperor+ :p.
     

Share This Page