More Civilizations' Macedonian Empire for VP

[ridjack]

I see.

 

[KlHannibal2]

A few things about the Katoikia.
I noticed the following differences to a normal citadel:
1. No damage to enemy units starting their turn next to it.
2. Katoikia can only be built in own territory, not in unclaimed territory bordering your own.
3. Katoikia does not function as a canal. No naval unit can enter it.
4. Different yields.

I think 1 and 2 are justified since you get better yields than from a citadel and you can get more Katoikias when your start to conquer. However, I think it should also function as a canal. It would not make Macedon OP, but remove an annoying limitation. It means that Macedon can't build a 2 tile canal like other civs with a citadel and a fort. And if there is a resource on the canal tile, you can't build a fort. Is that actually an intended property of the Katoikia?

Historically, there is a record that Alexander failed to build a canal somewhere in modern Turkey. So there would be a point to it. But gameplay-wise it feels wrong.

And about the Phalangitai: I did not find a good concept of use for this unit. Ideally, I will get as many Hetairoi early as my horse count allows. Start killing babrs, tributing and killing AI units. Then get catapults and take their cities. If this works, I have a large and experienced cavalry force. And with the general bonus getting better over time, the cavalry line can tank very well. They also earn generals points faster. Bottom line is, if I have enough horses, I will use infantry mostly as garrison.

Then, if I have few or no horses. Then I have the choice of using the sword or the spear line. My choice would always be the sword line for the higher CS that benefits more from the general. Longswords are also close to trebuchets in the tech tree, while Phalangitai are on the upper part. Far away from trebuchets and also from catapults. That position in the tech tree nullifies their earlier arrival than pikemen / longswords in many situations IMO. I woild only get Phalangitai if I have neither horses nor iron, which is very rare. So what is the use case for this unit?

 

[KlHannibal2]

Should the strategeion be the base UB, and the basilikoi be made the extra component? I’m just looking at the kit overall, and the strategeion/stratego/katoikia chain is more interesting and complex than the basilikoi, it covers the base civ’s inability to make citadels, and it unstacks both UCs from unlocking on the same tech.

thoughts?

Good points. Playing Macedon atm, I also see an argument for the barracks. It goes nicely with an early Hetairoi rush, with is the standard way to play this civ IMO. Settle 2 cities on or near horses. Go shrine first and take god of all creation. Get military theory, your unique barracks, and start cranking out hetairoi. In this scenario, the barracks help with production and culture to get deeper into authority. And that helps you to start your snowball. The Katoikia kit on the other hand only becomes available once you conquer successfully.

 

[pineappledan]

The idea for the phalangitai is that you can have an advanced classical army while still teching the top of the tree, which allows you to maintain that high culture output that the rest of the civ revolves around. The strategeion is also up there, so you can rush both techs and have both a strong army and strong economy.

the phalangitai is only slightly weaker than a longswords, but has no SR requirement and is much cheaper. Only 20 more than a sword, and 40 less than a longsword.

 

[ridjack]

the phalangitai is only slightly weaker than a longswords, but has no SR requirement and is much cheaper

And completely prevents adjacent enemies from fortifying or healing even in their own territory.

 

[dostillevi]

And completely prevents adjacent enemies from fortifying or healing even in their own territory.

Have you noticed if this also prevents city healing? Is that ability carried over on unit upgrade?

If either are true, this unit seems one of the strongest for the entire mid-game and probably needs some tweak. I like the idea of preventing healing, but it feels more like a harasser ability - something I'd find on the scout line. Having it on a front line unit that is made in abundance could be very difficult to counter. I haven't played them so I can't speak further, but color me intrigued at least.

 

[ridjack]

It's a consequence of the movement-stealing ability and was not intended according to Pdan. The game determines fortifying by checking your movement points; since they aren't full because of the adjacent Phalangitai, you can't fortify to heal. This wouldn't apply to cities.

(Sidenote: this also means that units with "no movement cost to pillage" can pillage and fortify on the same turn.)

I don't remember if the promotion is carried over - Macedon has been removed from my list until this gets fixed or changed.

 

[Rekk]

Does the boarded plague do the same thing?

 

[ridjack]

No, because Boarded reduces your maximum movement as well as your remaining movement.

 

[Rekk]

Seems like the goal was to do the same thing here?

 

[KlHannibal2]

The idea for the phalangitai is that you can have an advanced classical army while still teching the top of the tree, which allows you to maintain that high culture output that the rest of the civ revolves around. The strategeion is also up there, so you can rush both techs and have both a strong army and strong economy.

the phalangitai is only slightly weaker than a longswords, but has no SR requirement and is much cheaper. Only 20 more than a sword, and 40 less than a longsword.

In any case, I really like Macedon. The unique general bonus and the hetairoi match the history of Alexander the great very well. Great job on the mod!

The phalangitai is a good unit by itself. For me it just feels overshadowed by the excellent cavalry line of Macedon. It was not obvious for me before playing a few games with them, because the hetairoi have excellent combat strength and movement, but only carry over the extra general points.

The point for me is that the melee horse line is bad at horsemen and lancer stage. It's very strong at knight and from landship onward. The hetairoi covers the weakness of the horseman stage. And at the lancer stage, the general can already have +40% extra bonus over a normal general. The lancers can then safely tank in the frontline and rotate back. Also, horse units with a medic 2 behind your lines (often in friendly territory even when you attack) can attack much more often and more safely than infantry. They get more kills and level up faster. Also the general levels up faster from more attacks and the generals 1 promotion. So you end up with highly mobile, highly promoted melee units and a +50% bonus from the general (75% with normal general bonus and imperialism). You can end up with shock 3 drill 3 mobility blitz landships, if you get a few city conquest quests. Add the general bonus on top.

Maybe a few phalangitai can be useful to stop city and garrison healing and to defend on other fronts if you run out of horses. But otherwise, an all hetairoi army with some siege and ranged support just feels more synergistic on the long run.

Not meant to suggest any change, just an assessment of the civ.

Would be interesting to read some other experiences, also from a more mixed hetairoi/phalangitai army.

 

[AndreyK]

Decided to try with a new beta, just got to Medieval. Like this civ, prepare for conquest of 2-3 cities before GA. Hetairoi are good for barbs and CS tribute. But I can't build phalangitai, I see them in thecs tree and Civilopedia but not in city screen.

 

[AndreyK]

Would it be possible to build phalangitai? I see them in technology tree and Civilopedia but not in city screen.

 

[KlHannibal2]

Would it be possible to build phalangitai? I see them in technology tree and Civilopedia but not in city screen.

This seems to happen from time to time. More frequently the problem seems to be that they also don't show up in the tech tree. There are older posts about it. I also had the latter problem once, but in a newer version it was gone.

 

[AndreyK]

Seems 4UC components don't work for me - reinstalled latest VP version and started new game still can't build phalangitai, can build courthouse in captured city instead strategeion.

 

[pineappledan]

There are multiple guides, at least 1 in this thread, on how to resolve that issue.

 

[pineappledan]

update with the 1.4 victory focus code is live

 

[pineappledan]

updated for the Great Merge. Added Great General Movement Stacking to the Hetairoi.

 

[Alpharius]

updated for the Great Merge. Added Great General Movement Stacking to the Hetairoi.

GGs starting their turn stacked with a Hetairoi does get 5 MP, but 3 MP are spent when moving through forest/jungle without hills.

Almost lost a GG till I noticed it wasn't keeping up with the Hetairoi

 

[pineappledan]

3.0 compatibility posted.

No balance changes