More justice, Texas-style?

[Miles Teg]

Again, you're comparing hikers to a child-rapist/murderer. What do we do to the thousands of Mexican "hikers" we catch on a daily basis? And again, if an American went to Iran and raped and murdered a 16 year old, they wouldn't bother honoring the Vienna Convention. They'd just have a public stoning and America wouldn't treat Iranian citizens in our country any different under federal law.

You seem to be under the impression that just because Humberto Leal was walking trash, the government of Texas shouldn't have tried to give him a fully fair trial, and informed him of his legal rights. Justice doesn't work that way. Trespassers and murderers both get a fully fair trial, no exceptions.

Also, you're a little confused. The United States, and Texas in general, does fall under the Vienna Convention. We signed and ratified the thing after all. The problem is that the Supreme Court may a weird reading that Congress not only had to ratify a treaty, but also make a separate law announcing that it would be enforced.

So the treaty applies to this case, there's just no enforcement mechanism.

 

[JollyRoger]

The state of Texas does not fall under the jurisdiction of this treaty, as per the Supreme Court, so any complaints on this matter are null and void.

Actually, if you read the case carefully, they do, there is just not a Supreme Court-approved enforcement mechanism.

 

[SerriaFox]

I pretty sure Texas gave him a fair trail, What we didn't to is wait for the Mexican Consul to show-up. As trials are public affairs they could have showed if the were really interested as it was not a secret trial.

 

[Miles Teg]

I pretty sure Texas gave him a fair trail, What we didn't to is wait for the Mexican Consul to show-up. As trials are public affairs they could have showed if the were really interested as it was not a secret trial.

The Mexican Consulate attempted to do so. They've been attempting to do so for years. They took the US to court back in 04 for executing 30 Mexican nationals without letting the Mexican government access any of the defendants, and they won.

The accused was not informed of his right to contact his consulate, which violates the spirit of Arizona vs Miranda.

 

[Wolfbeckett]

And I'll be the first to say that if it was a white American in Mexico, it wouldn't have.

Err, what's your point? Because you believe Mexico would break their word that makes it okay for us to do so as well? Sorry, I don't believe two wrongs make a right. No matter what Mexico would or would not do in this case, it's no excuse for us to break our word.

 

[Xanikk999]

I hate to be That Guy but since it's early in the thread and nobody has said it yet, I guess I'll be the first: if this dude was white (say, a Canadian in the same immigration situation), the treaty would have been honored IMO and none of this would have been an issue.

I don't know about that but if it was a young women I am sure she wouldn't of been executed.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

The Mexican Consulate attempted to do so. They've been attempting to do so for years.

False. the was no denial of any attempted access. The only issue is

The accused was not informed of his right to contact his consulate, which violates the spirit of Arizona vs Miranda.

That a defendant who had never requested consular access, not even informed the authorities that he was a foreign national (entry as a toddler) until after his trial, was not informed until then by the authorities of his right to contact the consulate. (Anybody want to take bets on whether or not his defense attorneys were fully aware of all this and intentionally lying behind the log rather than asking for consular access? I would like for them to be question about that.)
There is no doubt of guilt here, despite lies to the contrary, nor any chance that any other lawyers in the world could have altered the outcome. The prosecution could have convicted him of Rape, Torture, and Murder, with less than half of the mountain of evidence they presented.

This: "Leal's attorney Sandra Babcock said that with consular help, her client could have shown that he was not guilty" is a flat out lie. Read the record of the case if you want to see what a total slam dunk prosecution is like.

 

[Bestbank Tiger]

So, we all agree that we should ask a suspect about his citizenship when he is first arrested? After all, we have no way of knowing unless we ask.

 

[Miles Teg]

There is no doubt of guilt here, despite lies to the contrary, nor any chance that any other lawyers in the world could have altered the outcome. The prosecution could have convicted him of Rape, Torture, and Murder, with less than half of the mountain of evidence they presented.

Absolutely agreed. So why not inform him of his rights? It's downright embarrassing when North Korea shows more respect for the niceties of international law than the United States of America.

 

[JollyRoger]

So, we all agree that we should ask a suspect about his citizenship when he is first arrested? After all, we have no way of knowing unless we ask.

Sure. Asking for the papers of non-arrestees that happen to encounter the police is a different matter.

 

[Skwink]

And I'll be the first to say that if it was a white American in Mexico, it wouldn't have.

America could, persuade the Mexican government to treat the American well.

 

[MobBoss]

The guy admitted to the terrible crimes he had committed. Whats the problem?

 

[Miles Teg]

The guy admitted to the terrible crimes he had committed. Whats the problem?

It's symptomatic of an ongoing problem. Mexico counts 50+ incidents of their citizens being tried in American courts, and not informed of their rights to contact the Mexican consulate (The Mexican government was also not informed that one of its citizens had been arrested). A number of those cases, and now this one, resulted in an execution. Of course, we all know how careful Governor Perry and the Texan government are when it comes to following the law and executing the right person.

There's no doubt in my mind that Humberto Leal is guilty of the crimes committed and deserves the punishment he received. However, his rights were violated in this case. The law is supposed to protect everyone, even the worst of the worst. The State of Texas has failed in its duties in this instance.

 

[Luckymoose]

Am I missing the problem with this? He tried to escape the death penalty for a crime that he clearly committed. Proving he is not guilty in a situation where he clearly was would have been injustice to the dead teenager. Eye for an eye. Don't kill people and we won't kill you. Simple really. America bringing justice to the world.

 

[BuckeyeJim]

Err, what's your point? Because you believe Mexico would break their word that makes it okay for us to do so as well? Sorry, I don't believe two wrongs make a right. No matter what Mexico would or would not do in this case, it's no excuse for us to break our word.

No, I am not saying that because Mexico won't treat us in the way they wish their people to be treated that it's okay for us to do so as well. I'm saying that this feigned blabber about how other nations might not treat us the same way as a result of this execution is errant. This will have no effect on the nations that would allow us consular access anyway, and will not have any effect on nations like Mexico that routinely thumb their nose at international doctrine such as this. Particularly when it comes to brute, heinous crimes. This goes above and beyond American citizens. Mexico's treatment of Central Americans is notoriously brutal. The do not possess one iota of credibility when it comes to criticizing America for mistreating their "citizens."

Good luck trying to get Mexico to reform their ways. They may say they will, but they won't for years to come. Let's face it, it's not much more than a corrupt banana republic.

 

[holy king]

i'm not sure why any country would even bother to sign a treaty with the usa.

 

[Miles Teg]

Am I missing the problem with this?

I'm honestly stumped as to how to explain this. If following international law isn't something you care about, and maintaining a national reputation better than North Korea or Iran is just so much wind to you, or if following spirit of the constitution expressed in 5th amendment is too high of a standard, then yeah, there's nothing important in this case.

 

[JollyRoger]

The guy admitted to the terrible crimes he had committed. Whats the problem?

A failure to honor our treaty obligation which would have been very easy to do here and if Texas had, the guy would have likely been executed even earlier and with less expense.

If we do not honor our treaty obligations, why should we expect our counter-parts to such treaties to so?

 

[BuckeyeJim]

i'm not sure why any country would even bother to sign a treaty with the usa.

Do you think the USA is unique? All nations will act in their own self-interest if "treaties" do not favor them.

 

[holy king]

this is pure contempt for other countries and the treaties with them. what the hell would have been unfavourable about letting the mexican consulate have contact with this guy?

also, there's no such thing as "national interest". it's the interests of each countries elites that dictate foreign policy, nothing else.