Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
The second one...legal? All I ever use is Bureaucracy or Free Speech...the high upkeep on Vassalage or situational benifits of Nationhood havn't ever been necessary.
Most Useless Civics Branch?
- Thread starter Stylesjl
- Start date
shadow2k
Emperor
Thalassicus said:
I'm using Vassalage in a game right now. Huge warring empire, so Bureacracy doesn't make much sense. Free Speech is only build a lot of cottages, which I don't. I am using organized religion to get all my newly conquered cities up to speed quicker, so Theocracy isn't as nice of an option. Vassalage allows me to still get the 6xp out of the gate for the double promotion. High upkeep is balanced out by the free troops I get for my huge army.
All of it's situational though,. I normally ignore religion though, sometimes not ever declaring a state religion (so no religious civic until Liberalism), so that line gives me the least amount of benefits in most games.
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
I love the fact that this topic is genuinely debatable. 
- Sirian
- Sirian
I always go through at least one period of Vassalage. The units you create during that time can be upgraded later and keep their promotions. The more war I have, the more Vassalage I have.Thalassicus said:
I only use Bureaucracy if my empire isn't large by then.
I wanted to answer this:
I don't think they destroyed air forces entirely, but they did get rid of things I liked.
The use of Fighters and Bombers has never been better. I have been fighting the Aztecs and my Bombers have made the difference between a city defense of 60% and a city defense of 35-20%. HUGE difference if outnumbered. (I'm usually not, but I also usually send troops ahead to see if I can do more with less. With air support, I usually can.)
Then my gunships come in... they don't drop anyone... remember Rambo II? Those helicopters just shot from the air with machine guns. Perfectly logical. The point isn't to take the city; it's to cripple or kill the defense. I like the way you can actually move gunships, ala Civ II, but you don't lose health ala Civ II. That and the fact I can't cross water, which is a royal pain. Technically, it's a LAND unit. Creepy, huh? But it moves like one, fights like one, it must be one.
That's all I got to say for the air force except... BRING BACK THE NUKE SUBS!
I don't think they destroyed air forces entirely, but they did get rid of things I liked.
The use of Fighters and Bombers has never been better. I have been fighting the Aztecs and my Bombers have made the difference between a city defense of 60% and a city defense of 35-20%. HUGE difference if outnumbered. (I'm usually not, but I also usually send troops ahead to see if I can do more with less. With air support, I usually can.)
Then my gunships come in... they don't drop anyone... remember Rambo II? Those helicopters just shot from the air with machine guns. Perfectly logical. The point isn't to take the city; it's to cripple or kill the defense. I like the way you can actually move gunships, ala Civ II, but you don't lose health ala Civ II. That and the fact I can't cross water, which is a royal pain. Technically, it's a LAND unit. Creepy, huh? But it moves like one, fights like one, it must be one.
That's all I got to say for the air force except... BRING BACK THE NUKE SUBS!
I think the worst economic civic would have to be environmentalism. Its place in the tech tree is very late and its benefits are not that good. Sure, I only play on noble, so I don't get the huge health and happiness hits. I find as long as I have some of the jungle luxaries I have plenty of happiness to spare. Health isn't a problem as long as I get the grains and a few buildings in my cities that need the added health.
I think environmentalism should give +1 hammer to all lumbermills too, then I think it would be a very worthwhile civic if I plan on keeping your trees around. I do every now and then, especially plains trees with no fresh water or a city with no hills nearby, as a lumbermilled plains forest is just about as good as a plains hill with railroad and mills bult on them.
I think environmentalism should give +1 hammer to all lumbermills too, then I think it would be a very worthwhile civic if I plan on keeping your trees around. I do every now and then, especially plains trees with no fresh water or a city with no hills nearby, as a lumbermilled plains forest is just about as good as a plains hill with railroad and mills bult on them.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Or +1 food. They're obviously still working on Environmentalism, though, so we'll see what their goal is for that civic.Bezurn said:
troytheface
Deity
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2002
- Messages
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off topic a bit here - but yes the airforce aspect is better- i like the circling planes and fighters only on carriers - but i was referring to airborne troops.
There are none. Conquests had Helicopter drops and Paratroopers- and they eliminated this (flank? area?) tactically from combat.
(Although if the choppers in Civ4 could carry troops it would be over-powering...race 4 tiles in/ pillaging or not and drop a couple units...)
Point is, air troopers- actual units invading from above, was whittled down to 0.
There are none. Conquests had Helicopter drops and Paratroopers- and they eliminated this (flank? area?) tactically from combat.
(Although if the choppers in Civ4 could carry troops it would be over-powering...race 4 tiles in/ pillaging or not and drop a couple units...)
Point is, air troopers- actual units invading from above, was whittled down to 0.
Environmentalism is good when you want a population boom before a UN diplomatic victory vote. I did that as the Egyptians in a monarch game, and my eligible votes went up by about 15%-20% over the course of two elections. With the help of bribing allies to vote for me with techs and resources, I was able to win by diplomatic victory. Here is the game that I am talking about: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=151165
Bezurn said:
shahreevar
Prince
Thalassicus said:
in the pre-pntagon era. the combo of vassalge and thocracy give you 8 xp out of ten, this gives you only 2 point for the next xp, and you should be in vassalage when building units for the upcomming war which should be vrry close, since you prolly can't afford the high maint for too long.
also note that the situation mentioned above is great for all traits, but with agressive it becomes something extraordinary
shahreevar
Prince
i have to admit that i have used all civics, except Nationhood. the need was never there.
Byrath
Peacenik
Same here, have used all but Nationhood, though I can definitely see its purpose as an emergency civic, especially if playing a spiritual leader.
omni_paul
Mr. Shambles
To me, Theocracy is useless when compared to Organised Religion. To switch from OR to T just never seems the right option. I usually go straight from OR to Freedom of Religion.
Byrath said:
I've used Nationhood exactly once before and exactly for that reason - emergency and spiritual leader.
As said before, religion is really useful. Come on : organized religion, +25% building construction. You develop faster, build wonders faster, do everything faster. And theocracy adds you one promotion when building military units if you use it with vassalage. I always found a religion at least and try to spread it whenever I have production to spare for missionaries. The diplomatic, spying and financial advantages (if you build a shrine) are really to be considered in one's game IMO. Of course, that can bite you back (hello Isabella), but everything can, and the gains are still more consequent than the eventual losses.
Environmentalism comes handy in the endgame. More health = more pop capacity = more specialists, research and/or production. You can stop worrying about your cities becoming unhealthy (and unhappy as well if you've kept some forests). The only times I don't switch to environmentalism is when I have a really large empire and need nationalisation.
Environmentalism comes handy in the endgame. More health = more pop capacity = more specialists, research and/or production. You can stop worrying about your cities becoming unhealthy (and unhappy as well if you've kept some forests). The only times I don't switch to environmentalism is when I have a really large empire and need nationalisation.
After looking on how much each civic upkeep actually cost on the finance page i care less and less about it.
Playing on normal speed i take advantage that you can change the second civic "for free". Basicly slavery is the only civic i change one at a time.
Here is some opionion on other civics i use.
Vassalage- i often find that the extra units i am allowed makes the extra upkeep payed by the bigger unit pool. So the extra upgrade on my barrack units is basicly for free.
Buraucrasy- I rarely change from vassalage to buraucrasy unless my capitol is an extremely golden nugget in my empire.
Mercantalism- If i can combo it with representation (mostly if i have gotten my hand on pyramids), and my GPP cost havent skyrocketed so i have more than one city that is potetial SPP generator i love it. If i on the other hand has got my hand on Great Lighthouse and no bonuses on my specialists i shy it.
Free Market- Basicly the opposit of Mercantalism. If i don't need Mercantalism and don't know what to do with a second civicchange it's a nobrainer.
Theocrasy and Organised religon speaks for itself. If i have good diplomatic major religon i use Organised religon while building up my infrastructure and Theocrasy when putting out an army.
Midgame i to often have a war around the corner to think about pacifism. I think having National Epic in my GPP city is enough
I would like advise on when to use Serfdom/ Caste/ Nationhood/ Police State/ Environmentalism
I have never found the right time for theese
Playing on normal speed i take advantage that you can change the second civic "for free". Basicly slavery is the only civic i change one at a time.
Here is some opionion on other civics i use.
Vassalage- i often find that the extra units i am allowed makes the extra upkeep payed by the bigger unit pool. So the extra upgrade on my barrack units is basicly for free.
Buraucrasy- I rarely change from vassalage to buraucrasy unless my capitol is an extremely golden nugget in my empire.
Mercantalism- If i can combo it with representation (mostly if i have gotten my hand on pyramids), and my GPP cost havent skyrocketed so i have more than one city that is potetial SPP generator i love it. If i on the other hand has got my hand on Great Lighthouse and no bonuses on my specialists i shy it.
Free Market- Basicly the opposit of Mercantalism. If i don't need Mercantalism and don't know what to do with a second civicchange it's a nobrainer.
Theocrasy and Organised religon speaks for itself. If i have good diplomatic major religon i use Organised religon while building up my infrastructure and Theocrasy when putting out an army.
Midgame i to often have a war around the corner to think about pacifism. I think having National Epic in my GPP city is enough
I would like advise on when to use Serfdom/ Caste/ Nationhood/ Police State/ Environmentalism
I have never found the right time for theese
Danghis Khan
Your Friendly Pillager
ADHansa said:
The best use for serfdom is to minimize the number of workers you need, by the medieval era I try not to sacrifice my pop with slavery anymore (cities take too long to recover their size), but I'm often left with vast expanses of unimproved terrain, serfdom solves this problem by letting my workers do it all 2x as fast.
As for caste system, I've used it during wars with either mercantilism or the statue of liberty to put an artist in a newly conquered city.
Can't say much about the rest, I've never tried them.
As for the most useless branch, if I have to pick one (I'd rather pick useless civics, but I believe that's another thread) I'd say government. I rarely use hereditary rule and usually stick with representation (although there are the diplomatic bonuses, I try to stay friends with the ones favoring representation (they play nicer
).Danghis Khan
Your Friendly Pillager
troytheface said:kinda glad this topic came up- think civ4 is a great game and miles ahead of 3- but two issues (really three) are bothersome
Civ3's Goverments and Traits were fine with me. Civics and Leaders just fleshed out the idea numerically. (And so at a certain level Leaders and Civics are not all that big of a problem-same thing- a few more options- ) but other areas of the game are simplified- not that i have a prob with balance or contradiction- more i question the selection. (I would have preferred more goverment selections- Socialism- Oliarchy- ect. I think ur goverment kinda dictates ur Economic policy - doesn't it?(or in some cases vice versa ) As the original poster speaks of - the economic civic is unneccessary in my mind- it should be tied to the Goverment choice. (Ancient Greeks / Phonecians not using Free trade? ) And i miss that ol seafaring trait.
I don't see your problem with the new civics if what you wanted was more "governments". The civics window is a build-your-own-government page. You have literally hundreds (5x5x5x5x5) of potential combinations to create a government perfectly suited to you empire, granted many of them are stupid, but then I always thought feudalism was a waste in civ3. So yes your government does dictate you economic policy, but now you get more say in how that fits with other aspects of your empire.I've been waiting since Alpha Centauri for civics.
Dueck
Walrold
I have found a use for every single civic. Nationhood has been my least-favourite, but only because I prefer vassalage. The high upkeep is always cancelled out by the free units - it's even better when you have a large empire because each city increases the number of free units. That being said, free speech is one of the best economically-oriented civics, if you're a cottage-spammer.
Mercantilism I've found to be incredibly useful, especially in tandem with representation (and then, if possible, statue of liberty.) Free market and state property are exceedingly effective in their respective places (open borders or large empire.) During a cultural victory I considered using environmentalism because my cities were massive and always sick, but I won before I ever got biology
The religion civics I find to be the most adaptable for your empire. Theocracy is just great for military development, organized religion is just great for building infrastructure, free religion is great for tech development (+10% is a larger advantage than you think.) Pacifism is probably really good, but I never have been a hardcore GP maker, and my military is usually large enough to make it too expensive.
The government civics are excellent, too, in a similar way - universal suffrage for a booming economy with weaker production, police state for the warmonger, representation for the science race, and hereditary rule is good for early pacification of your people.
Labour civics I've found to be the least useful, but they still serve a purpose. Slavery is a boon for emergency situations. Serfdom I've found to be generally not useful, because by the time I get feudalism, my land is developed. However, I did play one team game where, for some reason or other, my land was very undeveloped, so switching to serfdom was huge. Caste system would be good if I was bigger on specialists, but as it stands, I'm a cottage/library-spammer. Emancipation is an unfortunate necessity; the +100% cottage growth is nearly useless by the time I get it, but the unhappiness is nuts.
Cliffs:
labour is the least useful civic category
Mercantilism I've found to be incredibly useful, especially in tandem with representation (and then, if possible, statue of liberty.) Free market and state property are exceedingly effective in their respective places (open borders or large empire.) During a cultural victory I considered using environmentalism because my cities were massive and always sick, but I won before I ever got biology
The religion civics I find to be the most adaptable for your empire. Theocracy is just great for military development, organized religion is just great for building infrastructure, free religion is great for tech development (+10% is a larger advantage than you think.) Pacifism is probably really good, but I never have been a hardcore GP maker, and my military is usually large enough to make it too expensive.
The government civics are excellent, too, in a similar way - universal suffrage for a booming economy with weaker production, police state for the warmonger, representation for the science race, and hereditary rule is good for early pacification of your people.
Labour civics I've found to be the least useful, but they still serve a purpose. Slavery is a boon for emergency situations. Serfdom I've found to be generally not useful, because by the time I get feudalism, my land is developed. However, I did play one team game where, for some reason or other, my land was very undeveloped, so switching to serfdom was huge. Caste system would be good if I was bigger on specialists, but as it stands, I'm a cottage/library-spammer. Emancipation is an unfortunate necessity; the +100% cottage growth is nearly useless by the time I get it, but the unhappiness is nuts.
Cliffs:
labour is the least useful civic category
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