Move over Old Navy, make way for US Army

[Eran of Arcadia]

Okay, but as Arab =/= Muslim, I don't think you can classify all of Islam as backwards for the last 1000 years.

 

[Princeps]

I don't mean this in offence to you, but his name is Ayatollah Kholmeni.

It is rather crazy that these people, like Kholmeni and Bin Laden reject modern conveniences so. Of course, Muslims have been doing this for a thousand years, they've always rejected the ideas of the rest of the world. When the Muslims conquered Isahafan around 700 AD, the troops came to their general with a great amount of Arab knowledge: books, containing many lost Roman secrets, and things like mathematics, algebra, astronomical data, all sorts of fantastic information. The general said to his men" burn it all, or cast it into the sea; it is of the infidels; if it is harmful, then we are saved from it, if it is wisdom, then Allah has shown us better."

This is the manner of thinking that is responsible for the backward ways of the Muslim World, and proof that their xenophobia runs far deeper than a bottle of Coke or a Big Mac. It just happens that now we (the West) are the ones who are ahead, and as our culture tries to spread into their part of the world, they know nothing other than fighting that which is not theirs. It is in their blood and in their soul, not in their head. That is why this War against Militant Islam is going to be so hard.

Ridicolous in my opinion. Muslims are not anyway more intolerant or self absorbed than any other humans. When muslim empires rose, their scientific golden age was caused by the knowladge of various peoples which they absorbed and studied.

The Ottomans were on top because of their leadership, not because they were more advanced than the West.

Ottomans of late medieval ages up until Napoleon were either more advanced or as advanced. Ottoman military was excellent, unrivaled by any European armies. Even some European strategists acknowladged this and some believed their armies were even more effective than those of Romans.
This was during the time they were running rampant on European soil.

They got most of their building techniques from the Byzantines anyhow, who were defnintely Western.

Ottomans had their own architectures and engineerings many of which were very distinctive from those of Byzantines.

The fact that they practiced religious toleration eventually does not mean that they were not a degenerate civilization.

They weren't. Europe simply overwhelmed them as it built colonies, opened new trade routs to India which brought trade down in the Mediterranean. Europe advanced quickly evantually surpassing them. They were not a degenerate civilization, they simply lost to another more rapidly advancing civilization.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Ridicolous in my opinion. Muslims are not anyway more intolerant or self absorbed than any other humans. When muslim empires rose, their scientific golden age was caused by the knowladge of various peoples which they absorbed and studied.

Sorry pal, but that's just plain not true. It was the various peoples before the Muslim Caliphate that flourished under the teachings of the Romans. As I said, they burned these books, and rejected the teachings of anybody else.

Okay, but as Arab =/= Muslim, I don't think you can classify all of Islam as backwards for the last 1000 years.

You're right, it was my mistake, I ought to have said Arab. My concern was with not identifying the Iranians as being Arabs, as they certainly aren't, but then it occured to me that in the time period we're talking about, they were ruled by Arabs, so yes, I ought to change that from Muslim to Arab.
I do wonder, though, if this xenophobia stems from Arab or Muslim culture? I would think Muslim, personally, as I know how the Koran feels about foreign cultures and ideals. But then again, we have the Turkish and Mughal exceptions, is just so confusing.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Ottomans of late medieval ages up until Napoleon were either more advanced or as advanced. Ottoman military was excellent, unrivaled by any European armies. Even some European strategists acknowladged this and some believed their armies were even more effective than those of Romans.
This was during the time they were running rampant on European soil.

No, their military was just larger, as they had many more people to draw from.

Ottomans had their own architectures and engineerings many of which were very distinctive from those of Byzantines.

The Ottomans studied the Hagia Sophia extensively, and it was a very long time before they were able to recreate such an archetectural feat. Their archetecture is a blend of the Roman constructions and the Arab ones that come with them being Muslim.

They weren't. Europe simply overwhelmed them as it built colonies, opened new trade routs to India which brought trade down in the Mediterranean. Europe advanced quickly evantually surpassing them.

Acutally, my friend, most of the provinces of the Ottoman Empire declared independence themselves, without any Western involvement. Now, once they were independent, they were weaker than before, and the Imperial West just moved right in.

They were not a degenerate civilization, they simply lost to another more rapidly advancing civilization

IN this statement, you argue my point for me. Perhaps degenerate was not the word to use, but they certainly weren't producing up to par.

 

[Princeps]

Sorry pal, but that's just plain not true. It was the various peoples before the Muslim Caliphate that flourished under the teachings of the Romans. As I said, they burned these books, and rejected the teachings of anybody else.

No, they did not. That is simply absurd. Muslim scholars openly discussed, studied and preserved Greek philosophies, studied Greek medicine, Roman and other culture's architecture. There are so many areas of science which they copied, and advanced futher.

They even took the studies of alchemy and transformed into a proper area of science; chemistry. They studied Greek medicine and wrote a more advanced medical book; the canon of medicine which was a corner stone of modern medicine. Advances in muslim chemistry lead to the development of Muslim pharmacology.

This however, would have never happened if they had burned the Hellenic books. They did not.

In fact, the courts of the Caliphates, IIRC, had many cultural aspects inherited from Greeks and some say the Caliphates became a vessel of hellenic culture.

Thats a fact.

IN this statement, you argue my point for me. Perhaps degenerate was not the word to use, but they certainly weren't producing up to par.

No, it did not. You stated that Ottoman empire was a degenerate civilization. It was not. You said something along the lines that Muslim civilization had not advanced under Ottomans and that it was the same as before the Mongol attacks. It is not true.

Europe had many advantages, in many areas, but Ottoman empire certainly was not degenerate, as it advanced in many ways just as the past empires.

Acutally, my friend, most of the provinces of the Ottoman Empire declared independence themselves, without any Western involvement. Now, once they were independent, they were weaker than before, and the Imperial West just moved right in.

There was no direct involvement, but slow, steady "wearing off" that came with the newly shifted economies and other major changes to which Ottomans could not adapt.

 

[Elta]

I don't mean this in offence to you, but his name is Ayatollah Kholmeni.

LOL As ussual I was way off

 

[Kozmos]

What kind of BDUs are they wearing....olive drab, desert camo? What?

 

[The Last Conformist]

They got most of their building techniques from the Byzantines anyhow, who were defnintely Western.

The Byzantines were "definitely Western"?

Somehow, that statement kills all enthusiasm I might've had for joining the discussion.

 

[HighlandWarrior]

Tell that to the Ottomans . . .after all they weren't killing or even persecuting members of other sects when that was all the rage in Europe.

bull*** 2 million christian armenians went to death camps under the englightened turk rule.

 

[emzie]

bull*** 2 million christian armenians went to death camps under the englightened turk rule.

Not really. The Ottomans *were* tolerant during most of their history, including times of European extremism (from their frounding until the late 19th century). The Armenian Genocide happened during a time when religious persecution was at a low point in Europe

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

It makes me rather sick to think that the uniforms once donned by soldiers of the United States military are now being worn by those that actively seek its destruction, and the destruction of the nation it protects. Evil sons of ...

 

[7ronin]

I thought this was about militant fashions. Here's my plan: we bomb the insurgent areas in Iraq with camouflage uniforms. All the militants will want to get in on the fashion trend and will immediately switch to the camouflage uniforms. Simultaneously, the U.S. Army and Marines will switch uniforms to levis and tee shirts. Since our side will no longer be wearing camouflage uniforms, anyone in a camouflage uniform must be an insurgent and can be sent to Allah.

 

[emzie]

It makes me rather sick to think that the uniforms once donned by soldiers of the United States military are now being worn by those that actively seek its destruction, and the destruction of the nation it protects. Evil sons of ...

Well the US military is making money off of this. It can't be all evil.

 

[7ronin]

These uniforms tend to be of local manufacture including the patches rather than U.S. government surplus. They are also much, much cheaper than the real thing.