MRG's Random Game of Randomness
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tjs282
Stone \ Cold / Fish
Another consideration is that if we don't buy it now, Wang may buy it out from under us, using his pile of 4000-odd gold...
28 cities now, and 29 next turn...
BTW, @Lanzelot — assuming I capture it! — can we keep Taegwon rather than razing it? It didn't accrue very much (any?) Korean Culture before we captured it the first time, and is a lot closer to KK than Thebes, so its Egyptian Culture shouldn't be an issue once we own the land beyond it...
Based on what they've sent at us, Egypt, Korea and Portugal don't have Horses.
Spain, Byz and Sumeria do for sure (and Spain also built SoZ* — though maybe we can "give" Bella Metallurgy if/when we get it from Wang...
).Not sure about America. Anyone remember seeing any American Horsemen or Knights at any point?
*Incidentally, the 4 ACavs I've seen so far all seem to have come (in pairs) from the NE of Chongfu, which suggests to me that Bella has an RoP with Wang, and she's using his road-network to dodge round all those coastal Hills and Forests in West Korea. If so, does anyone know if she has Iron as well? Because if Spanish Knights start showing up, I'd be very much inclined to make peace for (almost) anything that she wants (other than a town). Would that be OK?
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In the 550 AD save, Spain not only has horses and iron, Spain has extra horses and iron (you can see this on the trading table without making any deals... just putting peace onto the table). Spain didn't have Chivalry at that point in time.
America doesn't have horses in the 550 AD save.
Spain has horses. They know Education in the 550 AD save. Spain with horses can get dangerous rather quickly around this time, because of the extra movement of a conquistador.
tjs282
Stone \ Cold / Fish
Oh cr-umbs, I hadn't even thought about the stupidly OP Conquistador ATAR-movement (6 tiles over any terrain!).
If she builds even just a couple of those, we aren't even going to see them coming, never mind stop them — and then our (mostly totally ungarrisoned) towns are toast.
Yep. I had one game for a HoF attempt where I picked all seafaring opponents on a pangea map and included Spain. I didn't finish, and after that never selected them as one of my opponents again. Conquistadors only have an attack of 3, so with a good defender, I suppose, they aren't too threatening. BUT, likely you might need to defend more towns than your ordinary border. Counting six tiles in from all border squares isn't as simple as it sounds. And that's more defensive units than usual.
MrRandomGuy
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In a game like this I'd say stack troops on the border instead of cities. Leave some around for occasional invasion by sea. The AI will attack the troops (or we attack them first whichever) and won't be able to reach the cities at all without going through some of them. I used this strategy in an Emperor level game and the AI was pretty bad about coordinating attacks on a line of troops like that.
MrRandomGuy
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Just to visualize what I'm talking about: Here's a similar situation.
The land area is narrow enough similar to ours to where I can just place a wall of troops to prevent the AI from even reaching my cities. If the AI wants me, they'll have to either hit the wall of troops or go through Huamanga which is filled with a whole bunch of knights. I penciled in a black line to show where I would put troops if I wanted a full troop wall.
2 to 3 units stacked on top of each other would be sufficient for this. Especially when archers can fire upon an attacking unit first when stacked.
Spoiler :
The land area is narrow enough similar to ours to where I can just place a wall of troops to prevent the AI from even reaching my cities. If the AI wants me, they'll have to either hit the wall of troops or go through Huamanga which is filled with a whole bunch of knights. I penciled in a black line to show where I would put troops if I wanted a full troop wall.
2 to 3 units stacked on top of each other would be sufficient for this. Especially when archers can fire upon an attacking unit first when stacked.
tjs282
Stone \ Cold / Fish
Just FTR, I have not finished up my remaining turns yet, but aim to do that later today.
Given that @Lanzelot has not logged in since Sunday, and every other team-mate (and @Spoonwood!) has argued against buying the Iron, then OK, I won't sign that deal — unless Lanz weighs in very positively on the 'pro' side before I fire up CivIII this evening.
(No offence intended to either @MrRandomGuy or @choxorn, but Lanz does usually play at Deity, so may have insight that we Emperors do not...
)
I've used the "wall-o-units" strat myself from time to time, but usually only to guard against AI sneak-attacks during the relatively peaceful periods of (Emperor-level) Space/Diplo games on Standard-size maps. For a militaristic-VC attempt on a Large map, though, exposing nearly all our units to DG-levels of potential attrition seems like a rather suboptimal strategy — especially under Republic!
Also, when employing that strat, I've found it usually preferable to leave a gap(s) in the unit-wall, because that makes the AI much more predictable. Yes, the AI is crap at naval invasions, but if I force it to send troops by boat, then unless my Palace is relatively accessible by sea, it becomes much more difficult to predict exactly where those troops are going to be landed (i.e. where I will need to position my own bombardiers + attackers, prior to Rails).
Conversely, if I give the AI a clear overland-route, it will tend to send its units along that route, and rather than attacking my unit-wall, it will also often aim for tiles that it 'knows' it won't have to fight over — making it easy for me to set up a predictable kill-zone. If I also leave the gap(s) and nearby tiles unroaded, that can help separate the AI's fast-attackers from its footsoldiers — making it easier to kill the more 'dangerous' units.
Admittedly, unroaded tiles won't make any difference to ATAR-units... But I did have a possibly reassuring thought on that score: if Bella can generate ACavs, and has Iron + Horses to build Knights, would the UU+ATAR+ZoC factors actually be enough to persuade her to prioritise building Conquistadors, which have the same shield-cost as Knights, but are no better on attack than ACavs?
tjs282
Stone \ Cold / Fish
And I'm done!
Handover:
With the fall of Taegwon on this turn, we now have a secure(ish) front on the Korean border
Cleo is not yet ready to talk, but she's lost 20-plus units and a town in the last 6 turns, so that may change soon. I wasn't keeping a close count, but I think Henry lost even more units than Cleo (I killed at least one stack of 16 units, and several smaller stacks of 4-5 units). He and Bella will already talk, but I'm pretty sure he's still giving us WH, and we have killed everything she's thrown so far, so we might want to keep those wars going a bit longer in the hope of extracting more concessions with the PT (neither of them have much gold right now).
There are some Spanish Spears + Archers just out of sight near Chonju: with any luck, they will bypass our Spears+Workers (on Taeg's Oasis) and the newly formed LBM-Army (guarding the e*Archer who just spawned that MGL), to go after the newly founded town of Arvayheer. If they do, there are plenty of Trebs and LBMs nearby to deal with them.
Pop12 cities currently on unit-builds have been doing those builds throughout my set, to allow me to send a near-constant stream of units forward to the front. I would keep nearly all of them on those projects for now.
We will learn how to make Gunpowder in 3T at the current slider-settings (30% SCI, 40% LUX, due to a small bump in WW last interturn), so the next player should remember to reduce SCI% on that last turn -- if possible!
Kazan (and only Kazan!) has been on 1T-vSpear-duty, but may now be able to switch back to vLBMs again. However, it is also going to starve in 5T, so will need to take the Plains-tile back from Baruun, before that happens. This will reduce Kazan's shield-output to ~18 SPT, but (if we have Salt!) it can build Muskets instead of Spears anyway -- albeit still at fairly hideous shield-wastage. If we don't get Salt, then ... 2T-Trebs, I guess?
A similar consideration applies to Mandal, which is already building 2T-Trebs at 17 SPT.
Losing the Plains-tile will in turn put Baruun into -ve FPT, so it may at that point be worth building a 1T-Worker there (i.e. the Worker I shouldn't have added in the first place!). Until then, Baruun's current Settler-build (at 13 SPT) should be short-rushed after 2T (needs 4s = 12g) and then switched to an LBM.
Dora still has Iron to sell, surprisingly enough. I have not checked the price again.
I have not yet DOW'd Wang, but we should be ready to do that soon (once all our Armies have healed).
If we get another MGL during their initial rush (we have quite a few eLBMs now!), the next Army should probably be filled with defenders rather than LBMs. If we don't get Salt, there should be enough spare vSpears available near the front at that point, otherwise I'd knock out 3 vMuskets from our 20-SPT towns, and load those.
First target should probably be Chonju. It is Pop10, on Hills, and guarded by at least one vMusket, so we will need all our Trebs for that assault. Right now, there are 4 Trebs in Chongfu, and 8 near Taeg.
Happy hunting!
Save is below...
Spoiler (T)urn(L)og(D)on't(R)ead :
With the fall of Taegwon on this turn, we now have a secure(ish) front on the Korean border
Cleo is not yet ready to talk, but she's lost 20-plus units and a town in the last 6 turns, so that may change soon. I wasn't keeping a close count, but I think Henry lost even more units than Cleo (I killed at least one stack of 16 units, and several smaller stacks of 4-5 units). He and Bella will already talk, but I'm pretty sure he's still giving us WH, and we have killed everything she's thrown so far, so we might want to keep those wars going a bit longer in the hope of extracting more concessions with the PT (neither of them have much gold right now).
There are some Spanish Spears + Archers just out of sight near Chonju: with any luck, they will bypass our Spears+Workers (on Taeg's Oasis) and the newly formed LBM-Army (guarding the e*Archer who just spawned that MGL), to go after the newly founded town of Arvayheer. If they do, there are plenty of Trebs and LBMs nearby to deal with them.
Pop12 cities currently on unit-builds have been doing those builds throughout my set, to allow me to send a near-constant stream of units forward to the front. I would keep nearly all of them on those projects for now.
We will learn how to make Gunpowder in 3T at the current slider-settings (30% SCI, 40% LUX, due to a small bump in WW last interturn), so the next player should remember to reduce SCI% on that last turn -- if possible!
Kazan (and only Kazan!) has been on 1T-vSpear-duty, but may now be able to switch back to vLBMs again. However, it is also going to starve in 5T, so will need to take the Plains-tile back from Baruun, before that happens. This will reduce Kazan's shield-output to ~18 SPT, but (if we have Salt!) it can build Muskets instead of Spears anyway -- albeit still at fairly hideous shield-wastage. If we don't get Salt, then ... 2T-Trebs, I guess?
A similar consideration applies to Mandal, which is already building 2T-Trebs at 17 SPT.
Losing the Plains-tile will in turn put Baruun into -ve FPT, so it may at that point be worth building a 1T-Worker there (i.e. the Worker I shouldn't have added in the first place!). Until then, Baruun's current Settler-build (at 13 SPT) should be short-rushed after 2T (needs 4s = 12g) and then switched to an LBM.
Dora still has Iron to sell, surprisingly enough. I have not checked the price again.
I have not yet DOW'd Wang, but we should be ready to do that soon (once all our Armies have healed).
If we get another MGL during their initial rush (we have quite a few eLBMs now!), the next Army should probably be filled with defenders rather than LBMs. If we don't get Salt, there should be enough spare vSpears available near the front at that point, otherwise I'd knock out 3 vMuskets from our 20-SPT towns, and load those.
First target should probably be Chonju. It is Pop10, on Hills, and guarded by at least one vMusket, so we will need all our Trebs for that assault. Right now, there are 4 Trebs in Chongfu, and 8 near Taeg.
Happy hunting!
Save is below...
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MrRandomGuy
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Preflight/assessment:
General management:
Two cities need to be MM in order to prevent starvation through a couple of turns. Really all cities need to be, but those two in particular need to not have citizens starve. Cities building units can remain unchanged. Hovid is set to be settler abandoned. Not sure the steps I need to do in order to complete that since it's size 1 and we need it to be size 3. It won't be size 3 in 7 turns with the scientist. Everything looks good to stay as is as far as production goes.
Plan:
Defend from land invasion and keep the current wars unchanged. The peace treaty with Korea expires in 10 turns. I will not declare on them during this turnset to keep our reputation intact just in case we might need it to be later. If they declare on us though...
Settlers will build cities in the desert with ICP placement using the dotmap posted earlier as a reference.
Once Gunpoweder is researched look for salt and further assess the situation.
General management:
Two cities need to be MM in order to prevent starvation through a couple of turns. Really all cities need to be, but those two in particular need to not have citizens starve. Cities building units can remain unchanged. Hovid is set to be settler abandoned. Not sure the steps I need to do in order to complete that since it's size 1 and we need it to be size 3. It won't be size 3 in 7 turns with the scientist. Everything looks good to stay as is as far as production goes.
Plan:
Defend from land invasion and keep the current wars unchanged. The peace treaty with Korea expires in 10 turns. I will not declare on them during this turnset to keep our reputation intact just in case we might need it to be later. If they declare on us though...
Settlers will build cities in the desert with ICP placement using the dotmap posted earlier as a reference.
Once Gunpoweder is researched look for salt and further assess the situation.
tjs282
Stone \ Cold / Fish
Settler-abandonment does not require the town to be at Pop2, it can be done at Pop1. All that is required is that the town should be harvesting zero net FPT when the shield-box finishes filling -- hence the Scientist, who is eating the 2f from the town-tile, to prevent growth.
When the 30th shield has been collected (during the production-phase of the interturn), you will get a pop-up warning that the town does not have sufficient citizens to complete the Settler (i.e. without destroying the town), and you then need to confirm that you want to abandon it: Boom, the town lies in ruins with a Settler waiting on top of them.
EDITED to add:
If you can get a Worker-trio into Hovd on the turn before it autorazes, you can then build a road in 1T (also clears the ruins), and immediately start the Settler heading to its destination
I'd recommend sending that Settler north, and then building another in that area, to 'replace' Hovd, because the 2 Tundra-Forest tiles have just been planted, and have never been chopped — so it would be good if those potential chop-shields went into something useful before we Settle on that one remaining available Tundra-ICS spot (SW of Hovd's will-be-ruins).
CAII says those 4 mined Tundra tiles can also still be Forested and chopped (and then reforested for max.-SPT, if the nearby towns aren't all completely corrupt). I guess they were mined before we learned Engineering...?
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Are you sure? I thought it wouldn't let you finish the Settler at all at pop 1.
tjs282
Stone \ Cold / Fish
That's only true when your Civ is Agricultural, and the town has freshwater or you're no longer in Despotism.
The hardcoded 3 FPT from the town-tile then makes it impossible to achieve net-zero FPT at Pop1, so you have to grow the town to Pop2, and then adjust the net-FPT downwards, e.g. by setting the second citizen to work a 1-FPT tile.
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Sorry, I was traveling the last 4 days.
I agree on the iron trade. It would completely wreck our economy, and at the moment we don't need iron. (Perhaps we'll never need it.) Let's hope for saltpeter in our territory or nearby in Korea.
It looks like we are getting WW from Spain. So no need to keep that war on any longer. We can make peace for a worldmap and even get 13g. (And if we want to attack Korea soon, we need to make peace with some others. We don't have the resources to fight Korea+Egypt+Spain+Portugal on that front...)
Afterwards we can lower lux and finish Gunpowder in 2 turns.
Darhan and Dalandzadgad can make 10spt. (That's why I cleared the volcano at Daland). Darhan will grow via workers from Choybalsan anyway.
There are several entertainers, who can be put to work, or at least be made a scientist.
Baruun-Urt doesn't need to shortrush via settler, it can build 3-turn LBs at 3x14. (Road on that mountain finishes interturn.)
Tes can grow in 1.
I suggested turning Tsertserleg into a 4-turn settler pump, but now it has grown to size 10 and already built a market instead of a granary?! I don't really like shedding off 5 citizens to shrink it back to size 5, so what do we do? The only reasonable way now is to cash-rush settlers in the corrupt towns Tes and Arvayheer, which have enough food to grow quickly. In that case we don't need a granary in Tsetserleg anymore. Let's build barracks and do 3-turn LBs there.
Or better: do a library there first.
BTW: we can build the Pentagon! We should start it immediately. (And make sure that we never lose one of the three Armies, as otherwise we'll lose a ton of shields...
) Best is probably in KK?!
Taegwon has flip-risk 0.7 -4.5% Better not keep any units in there.
Even Tes and Arvayheer have a slight flip risk. We need to raze Chonju and Chinje quickly.
I agree on the iron trade. It would completely wreck our economy, and at the moment we don't need iron. (Perhaps we'll never need it.) Let's hope for saltpeter in our territory or nearby in Korea.
It looks like we are getting WW from Spain. So no need to keep that war on any longer. We can make peace for a worldmap and even get 13g. (And if we want to attack Korea soon, we need to make peace with some others. We don't have the resources to fight Korea+Egypt+Spain+Portugal on that front...)
Afterwards we can lower lux and finish Gunpowder in 2 turns.
Darhan and Dalandzadgad can make 10spt. (That's why I cleared the volcano at Daland). Darhan will grow via workers from Choybalsan anyway.
There are several entertainers, who can be put to work, or at least be made a scientist.
Baruun-Urt doesn't need to shortrush via settler, it can build 3-turn LBs at 3x14. (Road on that mountain finishes interturn.)
Tes can grow in 1.
I suggested turning Tsertserleg into a 4-turn settler pump, but now it has grown to size 10 and already built a market instead of a granary?! I don't really like shedding off 5 citizens to shrink it back to size 5, so what do we do? The only reasonable way now is to cash-rush settlers in the corrupt towns Tes and Arvayheer, which have enough food to grow quickly. In that case we don't need a granary in Tsetserleg anymore. Let's build barracks and do 3-turn LBs there.
Or better: do a library there first.
BTW: we can build the Pentagon! We should start it immediately. (And make sure that we never lose one of the three Armies, as otherwise we'll lose a ton of shields...
) Best is probably in KK?!Taegwon has flip-risk 0.7 -4.5% Better not keep any units in there.
Even Tes and Arvayheer have a slight flip risk. We need to raze Chonju and Chinje quickly.
I disagree with this. At least this early. It's 30 turns for a settler at one shield. That's no big deal. There's also a hidden benefit. Playing an AWE pangea 60% map, I've played almost entirely raze and replace. I didn't have settlers to cover territory immediately. So, the AIs would send settlers with some unit protecting it. This has two benefit effects, no make that three.
1. It divides up their military some. It's easier to kill three rifles in a city and one out in the open in a size 1 town, than to kill four rifles in a city, ceteris paribus.
2. They end up producing settlers from one of their likely core cities. That means that they spent turns building settlers (or one turn if it's rather late I suppose). They lose two population then also, and likely have less commerce and production.
3. Captured settlers turn into slaves. There is no such thing as too much slave labor in civ III, unless it bothers someone personally to use slaves in the game.
IF you're getting close to the domination limit (it's only 5 turns for a culture pop from a temple), then cash-rushing settlers can make sense for finishing out the game. But, that's only a matter of speed. You need to have a position to get there first, and cash-rushing settlers this early probably doesn't make sense. I don't think you make the used commerce back, I think it's a net negative, but I don't have conclusive numbers.
Also...
4. Capturing a city from someone like Korea on this map, even at size 1, likely pays off. I mean, even if it's razed, you still get some gold.
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tjs282
Stone \ Cold / Fish
Yes, I remember you did suggest a Gran. But you also said this:
...which I understood as "let Erdenet and Tstetserleg grow to Pop6, and then start joining Workers to them".
But these two proposals are mutually exclusive for Settler-pumping, which as you note, is most efficiently done at Pop5-7.
And given that we were (are) still hurting for both free-unit support and TAX%-gold, it also made little sense to me to be keeping Tsets below Pop7. This is a Large map, we get more low-corruption towns than on Standard, so why cripple the ones we have? Tstets is a semi-core (~50% waste?) freshwater town which will be able to grow naturally to Pop10-12 without a Duct, and we had Workers nearby with no urgent jobs to do in the immediate vicinity*, so yes, I joined them in — as suggested.
*Nearly all currently usable tiles near Mandal/Tsets/Baruun had been fully improved already, and I didn't want to move (more) Workers towards the unimproved tiles near the front, while I still had so many incoming Portuguese/Egyptian units to deal with (I've already owned my carelessness in taking the Archer-Army off those 3 Workers near Tes, which resulted in losing them to the injured ACav — but losing Chongfu would have been worse).
In addition to the TAX%-gold it's giving us now, Tsets' Market will also be useful for Happiness once we start relieving Wang of his Luxes — he has multiple Silks and Wines, which we should then be able to trade away for our third and fourth Luxes (until we can liberate those, as well!)
We already have at least one Settler on the way to the front (which could be used to replace Chonju), and another one will complete out of Hovd during this set.
Once the Korean SoD(s) have been mopped up and Chonju has been razed and replaced (the site is good), most/all our 1-2-shield CrapTowns which are currently building Galleys and Trebs (or Fishing- and Whaling-Harbours), can probably be switched to Settler-duty instead.
Even if it takes 30 turns to build each new Settler, just 8 CrapTowns — which we already have — would give us 1 new Settler every ~4 turns on average over that 30T period — just like a single Settler-pump would. And if they've already got shields in their box for a 30-shield build anyway, the first of those Settlers will be ready in (a lot) fewer than 30T — so we might not even need to cash-rush anything!
That was my thinking — I might even have queued up those builds already.
@MrRandomGuy : when you are ready to DoW Wang, it might be a good idea to use our Armies to pillage all the roads to Chongju inside Korean borders, except the (riverside?) road that our units will be using. If our Armies and Trebs are just inside his border, forcing his units onto the unroaded Deserts will give the Trebs a chance to bomb them twice as they go past (they will also take ZoC-damage), making for easier kills when they reach our LBM-stacks near Tes, Ayvar and Taeg
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Yes, all that you, @Spoonwood and @tjs282, said above is correct and makes a lot of sense, but it doesn't directly address one pressing problem we currently have: we are paying meanwhile 114gpt in unit upkeep, and are still building lots of units and workers...
We need more towns quickly to finally get back into the black.
As usual, there is no "easy and obvious" solution in Civ3... There are several different ways, and each has its pros and cons...
The slaves from razing will definitely help. And perhaps we can make a decision like this:
We need more towns quickly to finally get back into the black.
As usual, there is no "easy and obvious" solution in Civ3... There are several different ways, and each has its pros and cons...
The slaves from razing will definitely help. And perhaps we can make a decision like this:
- If we have saltpeter within reach, we keep researching.
- If we don't, we'll have to rely on LBs for quite some time anyway, so we could stop research for a while and use the gold to rush a settler in a crap town every 8 turns. (With three floodplains, a town needs 8 turns to grow from 3 to 5. Or in other words: 4 turns for one citizen. When it reaches size 5, we rush, the town falls back to size 3 and still has enough food for 4-turn growth. That's better than already rushing at size 3, because at size 1, it needs 7 +5 = 12 turns to grow back the two citizens.)
Once we have ICSed a big enough area and got rid of our huge deficit, we can then research the missing techs more quickly.
I'm not sure when you thought you would start getting happiness from luxuries.
I see that the civiliopedia says that the number of extra "happy faces" produced by luxuries is 1 for one luxury and 2 for two luxuries, and 4 happy faces for four luxuries. But, my memory was that markets only gave extra happiness at size three and beyond.
I went and checked. I set luxuries to 0 on the slider. I have 5 happy faces and 7 unhappy faces in a city with a market (I was running 10% luxuries when I loaded the save...). The city has 5 luxuries. I sell the market and I have 3 happy faces and 9 unhappy faces. That isn't two more happy faces in the sense of the above I think, but rather four more happy faces. Citizens first become content by a luxury, and then any content citizen becomes happy by a luxury (buildings can work differently in only producing content citizens). In this instance, without the market, 1 luxury for the native content citizen to become happy, 2 for an unhappy citizen to become happy, and 2 more for a second unhappy citizen to become happy. With the market, there was one extra content citizen from the market + the third luxury, that citizen then becoming happy via the market + the fourth luxury, and one extra happy citizen from the fifth luxury.
So, I'm going with what my intuition suggested, since testing has confirmed it. The civiliopedia is not correct, or a bit confusing. It says "It also increases the number of happy faces produced by luxuries as per the following list."
No. Markets do not necessarily increase the number of happy faces produced by luxuries. Specifically, with less than 3 luxuries, your city won't get extra happy faces. Markets changes the list of the number of happy faces produced by luxuries.
Without market ---------------> With market.
1 happy face corresponds to 1 happy face (0 extra happy face)
2 happy faces corresponds to 2 happy faces (0 extra happy face)
3 happy faces corresponds to 4 happy faces (1 extra happy face on this luxury)
4 happy faces corresponds to 6 happy faces (1 extra happy face on this luxury)
5 happy faces corresponds to 9 happy faces (2 extra happy faces on this luxury)
6 happy faces corresponds to 12 happy faces (2 extra happy faces on this luxury)
7 happy faces corresponds to 16 happy faces (3 extra happy faces on this luxury)
8 happy faces corresponds to 20 happy faces (3 extra happy faces on this luxury).
So, you have to both relieve Wang of his luxuries *and also* acquire a third luxury.
Yes, it doesn't address that. The problem though isn't unit upkeep exactly, but total commerce. With cash-rushing you have less gold on hand. You get one extra unit support for a new town plus one extra commerce, for potentially two less gold for a new city. That's 40 turns for 80 gold, so having the gold works out better than cash-rushing if you need to spend that commerce on research or purchasing technology or upgrading. Now, if you use specialists, that's not as many turns. But, still.
Playing capture and keep can address that, also, I think if you used scientists or tax collectors from captured towns. But, that's almost surely not going to work if you have multiple opponents when taking on Wang. If you can't keep a town, you can still sell off all the building in it before abandoning it. That's still better economically than razing.
They can help with rail projects, and forestry operations. Also, if you were mass pillaging for a new road network. They won't help with commerce in corrupt towns though, until the town has some size, other than the 1 extra free units support and 1 commerce from a new town. I think you need 11 total commerce before a second commerce is not corrupted in a completely corrupt area, and that's quite a few roaded tiles.
Slaves aren't likely to be much of help economically. Likely playing capture and keep or capture, sell, and abandon is better economically. I think you can still sell a bank without knowing Banking? I'm not sure though.
And that would make for a later build on the military academy. Once you face rifles, do you really not want to have that built?
The research rate would be quicker, yes. ONCE you start to research that tech. But, the overall time to acquire the technology will likely be longer. A 50 turn run and two 8 turn runs is 66 turns. Three 20 turn runs is faster than that in acquiring the technology.
Also, Lanzelot, you worried about infantry. Yesterday I was using cannons, trebuchets, and catapults to redline them, and then using full or almost full health 4 unit cavalry armies to attack them in flatland or in forests. Barely any hitpoints lost in most of those battles. But, I had rails and the ability to produce more armies. Guerrilla armies probably would work just as well. Longbow armies might even be o. k. (I think with the Pentagon their attack is effectively more than cavalry not in armies?). But, delaying getting to military tradition won't help with producing more armies.
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