Multipolarity II - Game Thread

[Patriotic_Fool]

I feel that everything I did was too successful. I went from "LOL ur dead bro", to "The Soviets have a chance", to "The Soviets are an unstoppable superpower" in one turn.

I do think that some mechanics need refining, but the only reason I had the "power flip" is because I had big monay $$ to back it up.

Others could have bought NPCs too, but nobody did en masse except thor..

 

[Tani Coyote]

So you say you like a challenge?

Odd, whenever I changed the rules to try and make things balanced, you didn't seem very favorable at the time...

Speaking of which. Large-scale wars are intended to be a virtual death sentence in MP3.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Speaking of which. Large-scale wars are intended to be a virtual death sentence in MP3.

Interesting. Maybe that's a more successful way to enforce cold war politiking on the game than I had ever thought of.

(I was thinking of making WMDs a death sentence, just like IRL, but that just wouldn't work)

 

[Tani Coyote]

My reasoning is that if the United States (with all its gigantic economic and military clout) can bleed itself dry occupying third world nations like Iraq and Afghanistan, much smaller powers would certainly fold much quicker. Wars need to be quick and small-scale, or your country will fall into oblivion.

Accordingly, warmongers, the new occupation system says hi.

 

[Patriotic_Fool]

So you say you like a challenge?

Odd, whenever I changed the rules to try and make things balanced, you didn't seem very favorable at the time...

Speaking of which. Large-scale wars are intended to be a virtual death sentence in MP3.

Looking back, I'm pleasantly surprised with my bad-assery and overall well handling of a crappy situation. I'm going to have to change my tactics in Mp3 though.

One thing that disturbs me is (even with wars being made into tough time-wasters), what else is there that can prevent runaway nations from amassing loads of wealth?

We need WMDs, for the very reason to keep the threat of destruction possible. Not total destruction, but if you take away battles and WMDs, you're left with nothing but NPCs and economy. Economy is just a long number, and NPCs were pretty much just embargoing tools, damaging economy further.

And no offense, but I don't think you can handle the massive Mp3 load AND NPCs, and still manage to keep NPCs active and interesting.

Finally, the game boils down to an economics simulation. No war, no diplomacy other than intra-player diplomacy, no WMD (so no Cold War).

If I want to play economics, I'll go play lemonade stand

 

[NinjaCow64]

There's espionage. And espionage is what makes the Cold War IMO, not the nukes.

Are we getting rid of the NPC GM? That would be sad.

 

[Patriotic_Fool]

Actually there will be much rejoicing with the removal of the NPC gm.

So espionage/economics.

Get a large economy, buy lots of espionage tech. How is that diverse and or fun?
I think that we shouldn't eliminate corporations, nerf armies, get rid of nukes, etc. Were some overpowered? Yes.

Were they fun? Hells yes.

What happens if we remove em all?

We get Multipolarity 0.3. :\

 

[Patchy]

If we plan on running a game off of economy and espionage then the espionage system needs to be more interesting than it already is.

 

[Tani Coyote]

You can still invade places and create puppet states. Lots of folk seem to forget that.

The military is not "nerfed." It is just no longer a central focus. There's still techs and such.

A lot of the games' challenge will be trying to maintain economic prosperity when the only way to reliably do such is inevitably expand overseas with client empires.

It'll become virtually impossible to amass wealth through war. The only way to really amass wealth would be through a large client empire. With 2 dozen or so players, you can see why it's too fiercely competitive to become monopolistic.

Also, no NPC GM. It was a noble idea but it's just too cumbersome to work on something of this scale. If the NPCs were very minor and had no real mechanical grounding, like IOT IV's, it'd be no issue. With all the complexities and constant issues over where GM, suzerain, NGO and sub-GM power ended (I am not interested in politicking with whoever takes the role) and the accusations of bias due to inconsistencies and stuff, there's a bad taste in my mouth for NPC GMship.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Eh, I guess that makes sense. Still, I imagine NPCs are a load of work for you.

 

[Tani Coyote]

I can do them easily enough while I wait for the orders lock.

So I'm over at SonIOT with PF and AA. Since they are habitual aggressive players, I've decided to raise their points with the wider community:

Due to harsh war penalties and lack of WMD, they say the game will become boring.

The overall critique is that players will be incentivised to build up espionage and buy clients to secure more resources to buy more espionage and clients.

The weakened UN has made diplomatic dominance harder, and the dependence on resources for full functionality, coupled with war penalties, has made military dominance also harder.

Does anyone concur that this is a bad direction to take things? If so, how could things be improved?

Thus far the following model is in place:

-Resources to build up one's industrial base; the need for more resources to strengthen the economy is an impetus to gain clients
-Armies and navies (require resources to be fully useful); they can easily storm weak nations but long occupations are costly.
-Espionage; since spies are dependent on technology, there is a constant arms race in this regard.
-Lots of minor powers to compete with other major powers over in order to secure dominance
-Trade technology for those faint of heart to compete in the client race. A strong fleet will be a must to fend off piracy.

Also, a poll:

The last time I asked this, there wasn't much to go on.

As it stands, MP3 takes place in an alternate timeline where the UN of MP1 never formed.

HOWEVER. AA suggested that, to increase immersion and prevent the eruption of old tensions, I should have the game take place on Mobius. What say the community?

A Mobius IOT would have no shortage of ideas for me to go on; I'd be able to definitely flavor things due to the rich history of the world. The fantasy setting would also enable more flexibility for everyone.

 

[Jehoshua]

War is an integral part of politics. I think excessive restrictions on a states ability to wage war will lead to stagnation in the game. MPII was successful I think precisely because of the omnipresent security situations players had to play into for example.

That said, I would say that WMD's should be severely circumscribed, if not outright removed, and there should definitely be some sort of economic and diplomatic cost to waging war for some sort of occupation period to avoid excacerbating the effect of the cumulativity of conquest principle, it just shouldn't be too excessive.

Oh, and I agree the weakening of a UN is a good thing. Combined with the well balanced security/war paradigm it should make the game much more interesting and engaging, and it would more accurately reflect the anarchical state of the international order as compared to MPII's artificial imposition of a leviathanical UN.

-

I concur with the idea of a different timeline, although it needn't be Mobius.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Also, a poll:

The last time I asked this, there wasn't much to go on.

As it stands, MP3 takes place in an alternate timeline where the UN of MP1 never formed.

HOWEVER. AA suggested that, to increase immersion and prevent the eruption of old tensions, I should have the game take place on Mobius. What say the community?

A Mobius IOT would have no shortage of ideas for me to go on; I'd be able to definitely flavor things due to the rich history of the world. The fantasy setting would also enable more flexibility for everyone.

If you're going to do a Mobius IOT, it shouldn't be a MP game. It would be like pants while not wearing underpants. It would just be...wrong.

 

[Tani Coyote]

But Mobopolarity is such an awesome portmanteau.

The war mechanic as planned for MP3 hurts productivity in occupied regions for several turns. It will probably need revamping due to the lack of an Industry mechanic.

 

[filli_noctus]

I feel the mechanics of occupation should be what makes war a thing to be avoided but the response of other players, it is called 'diplomacy by other means' for a reason. Having said that the nature of the game, it being a game for one, mean only certain players will get involved in beating down a warmonger on the basis that it's the right thing to do - even if their own interests aren't immediately threatened.
With regards to WMDs you can go two ways, take them out or ramp their power up and add in first/second strike distinctions to make MAD a viable strategy. Currently their power level is too low for anyone to be sufficiently threatened by them to make annihilating a nation that uses them a justifiable response.
Just throwing this out as an off the wall idea, what about a mechanic whereby a player can lose without their nation being conquered? For those in it to win it even (even though there's no such thing as winning) there's a temptation to be last man standing and the only way to eliminate another player is by conquest. If another mechanic (for instance popular stability) could eliminate a player it would a) give another outlet for the competitive urge and b) provide a form of feedback where attempting to eliminate another player also increases your own chances of being eliminated unless you take steps to mitigate it which would in turn reduce your effectiveness at eliminating other players.

 

[Tani Coyote]

I have had mechanics that void your orders for a turn if your instability and RR is really high, to represent coups, an electoral swing, etc. I might refine them more for MP3.

I've considered keeping WMD (at least nuclear weapons) in and adding first and second strike rules. I've never tried it before but maybe third time's the charm? I can make WMD cheaper most certainly if I will actually void their use.

For example, using them tactically a few times would be perfectly fine, but an all-out first strike would be next to impossible unless your country is about to die anyway.

My main concern is if other players agree with AA and PF's points; since those two aren't exactly known as pacifists, I'm hesitant to expand militaristic capabilities on their ideas alone.

Also I'll add the best point for an alternate world: it makes it effectively impossible to bring the tensions of MP1 and MP2 into the fore. I dunno how many players would respect the timeline difference with MP3 if it is on Earth.

 

[NinjaCow64]

I have had mechanics that void your orders for a turn if your instability and RR is really high, to represent coups, an electoral swing, etc. I might refine them more for MP3.

I've considered keeping WMD (at least nuclear weapons) in and adding first and second strike rules. I've never tried it before but maybe third time's the charm? I can make WMD cheaper most certainly if I will actually void their use.

For example, using them tactically a few times would be perfectly fine, but an all-out first strike would be next to impossible unless your country is about to die anyway.

My main concern is if other players agree with AA and PF's points; since those two aren't exactly known as pacifists, I'm hesitant to expand militaristic capabilities on their ideas alone.

Also I'll add the best point for an alternate world: it makes it effectively impossible to bring the tensions of MP1 and MP2 into the fore. I dunno how many players would respect the timeline difference with MP3 if it is on Earth.

I like the ideas of WMDs in theoy, but I'm not sure about it in practice. It would mean it would be impossibe to destroy a nation entirely, because on the turn before they lose they will fire all the nukes and make a nuclear holocaust. But I have to reserve judgment on the issue until I see them in action. I am completely neutral on the subject.

I really don't want this to be set on Mobius/not-Earth. Earth is much better and people who are going to continue MP I & II rivalries in the new game when you've objected to it so much are going to be dicks anyway.

 

[Tyo]

You said yourself that MP isn't supposed to be a war game, but so far that's all the development makes it out to be. MP3 is a step in the right direction; with resources people will actually have something to manage in peacetime. We need to make more steps like that. So, I propose working on Espionage, which is more or less peacetime war. Make espionage more interesting, don't restrict it as much, and generally make it better. With actual economic management and an interesting espionage system, a Cold War is a lot more likely to happen and would be more fun to actually partake in. Of also consider looking at NPC diplomacies to make proxy wars possible, and try to add spice to those as well.

 

[NinjaCow64]

You said yourself that MP isn't supposed to be a war game, but so far that's all the development makes it out to be. MP3 is a step in the right direction; with resources people will actually have something to manage in peacetime. We need to make more steps like that. So, I propose working on Espionage, which is more or less peacetime war. Make espionage more interesting, don't restrict it as much, and generally make it better. With actual economic management and an interesting espionage system, a Cold War is a lot more likely to happen and would be more fun to actually partake in. Of also consider looking at NPC diplomacies to make proxy wars possible, and try to add spice to those as well.

 

[mayor]

You said yourself that MP isn't supposed to be a war game, but so far that's all the development makes it out to be. MP3 is a step in the right direction; with resources people will actually have something to manage in peacetime. We need to make more steps like that. So, I propose working on Espionage, which is more or less peacetime war. Make espionage more interesting, don't restrict it as much, and generally make it better. With actual economic management and an interesting espionage system, a Cold War is a lot more likely to happen and would be more fun to actually partake in. Of also consider looking at NPC diplomacies to make proxy wars possible, and try to add spice to those as well.

Halleluja!