Muslim World Enhancements

[alpav]

The Janissaries though were not allowed to marry according to the one article.

 

[ace99]

The Janissaries though were not allowed to marry according to the one article.

That was permitted by Selim II.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

== 2. The Islamic Golden Age ==

I'd like to see a better representation of this, too. I think it would be enough to change the Arab UP to automatic construction of madrassas (or libraries, if madrassas are changed so that they replace universities) on city conquest, but the House of Wisdom would be fun too. I prefer the idea of giving beakers for population to beakers for specialists. It's less easy to exploit, and a medieval supercity would be fun.

That's incredibly IMBA.

A size 15 city would provide 15 flat beakers to be factored into multiplicative bonuses that could go astronomically high.
Imagine if you had Sankore + Bureaucracy in that city if that system were to be implemented.
Automatic Madrassa construction would be more balanced than that.
But this ties into Middle Eastern tile yields, considering as it stands, that'd be okay,
but if we add flood plains and grasslands as some of the population concerns seem to
be pointing in the direction of, then and only then does it stand to become overpowered.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Well, good job Russia for making non-religious persecution. It's good to see some originality

Well, Russia also had the Jewish Pale of Settlement, with its limitations being purely religious. Don't expect consistency from Russia.

 

[Bickerstaff]

That's incredibly IMBA.

A size 15 city would provide 15 flat beakers to be factored into multiplicative bonuses that could go astronomically high.
Imagine if you had Sankore + Bureaucracy in that city if that system were to be implemented.
Automatic Madrassa construction would be more balanced than that.
But this ties into Middle Eastern tile yields, considering as it stands, that'd be okay,
but if we add flood plains and grasslands as some of the population concerns seem to
be pointing in the direction of, then and only then does it stand to become overpowered.

I'm not completely sure whether you're interpreting what I said about extra beakers for population as a proposed UP or an effect of the House of Wisdom wonder. My fault for being ambiguous. It would indeed be a pretty outrageous UP, but as a wonder, it's on about the same level as the Grand Canal. Or am I missing something?

I don't see why having the University of Sankore in the same city would be an issue. Wouldn't it provide a maximum of six extra beakers before multiplicative bonuses, for the case where you have a temple, monastery and cathedral?

Admittedly, the Grand Canal is a really good wonder, so maybe this effect is too powerful, even if it made obsolete by some relatively early tech. But for a civ with a number of cities with a few tiles with high food yields, the extra two beakers per specialists would probably be even more powerful, and as mentioned that has scary synergies with city states and some other wonders.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

I'm not completely sure whether you're interpreting what I said about extra beakers for population as a proposed UP or an effect of the House of Wisdom wonder. My fault for being ambiguous. It would indeed be a pretty outrageous UP, but as a wonder, it's on about the same level as the Grand Canal. Or am I missing something?

UP effects, particularly Science based ones, have to be balanced
to be conditional, otherwise you get civs that are exceptionally overpowered.
Even China's UP, which directly influences Science,
(-20% cost on undiscovered techs) is conditional.
Same with Maya's; expiring after Medieval, I believe? is over.

I don't see why having the University of Sankore in the same city would be an issue. Wouldn't it provide a maximum of six extra beakers before multiplicative bonuses, for the case where you have a temple, monastery and cathedral?

It's civ-wide. So a lot more than six, yeah?

Admittedly, the Grand Canal is a really good wonder, so maybe this effect is too powerful, even if it made obsolete by some relatively early tech. But for a civ with a number of cities with a few tiles with high food yields, the extra two beakers per specialists would probably be even more powerful, and as mentioned that has scary synergies with city states and some other wonders.

^See strijder20's old City-States gambits.
Or any city screen from Jusos's Domination games.

 

[Bickerstaff]

Okay, so your concern is that a civ with both the University of Sankore and the House of Wisdom would have too great a tech lead, is that right? I thought you were suggesting there was something particularly troublesome about having them both in the same city, which there isn't, because the extra beakers from the University of Sankore are attached to the religious buildings it effects, rather than the wonder itself.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there aren't any Arab cities with great seafood and the great merchants exploit has been closed, so it shouldn't be possible to create a crazy large Arab megacity in the medieval era, even with city states.

As for the UP, I don't think automatic madrassas in conquered cities would be particularly overpowered. It's certainly weaker than China's UP, since in any city with decent beaker production a human player will generally build madrassas quickly anyway. Its effects would be:

a) A bit more science early on, with the effect disappearing over time;
b) Some more culture, but the current UP's automatic religious buildings does this anyway;
c) No need to divert production to madrassas, allowing for more early camel archers for extra fun.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Okay, so your concern is that a civ with both the University of Sankore and the House of Wisdom would have too great a tech lead, is that right? I thought you were suggesting there was something particularly troublesome about having them both in the same city, which there isn't, because the extra beakers from the University of Sankore are attached to the religious buildings it effects, rather than the wonder itself.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there aren't any Arab cities with great seafood and the great merchants exploit has been closed, so it shouldn't be possible to create a crazy large Arab megacity in the medieval era, even with city states.

Have you considered what would happen if you conquered Rome or Constantinople?

As for the UP, I don't think automatic madrassas in conquered cities would be particularly overpowered. It's certainly weaker than China's UP, since in any city with decent beaker production a human player will generally build madrassas quickly anyway. Its effects would be:

a) A bit more science early on, with the effect disappearing over time;
b) Some more culture, but the current UP's automatic religious buildings does this anyway;
c) No need to divert production to madrassas, allowing for more early camel archers for extra fun.

If you've noticed; while playing as any Western Euro civ and America,
your later cities start off with extra population, as well as a couple of buildings;
usually a Granary, Market + a few other things. The one thing they don't have
in common is a Library equivalent for obvious reasons. However, I do support
the idea of automatic Madrassas in newly conquered AND newly founded cities.
I don't think it needs to expire as well, actually, if it's just going to be Madrassas.

While I'm here, and this may be a little off-topic,
but am I the only one who thinks that the new-city care package
(extra pop, Granary + other buildings) for late-game cities founded
by Europeans should be extended to all civilizations?

 

[Bickerstaff]

Have you considered what would happen if you conquered Rome or Constantinople?

A good point. So either the effect needs to be weakened, or it needs to be obsoleted by a tech it would be painful not to have by the time an Arab player could conquer one of those cities, build the wonder, and boost the population.

While I'm here, and this may be a little off-topic,
but am I the only one who thinks that the new-city care package
(extra pop, Granary + other buildings) for late-game cities founded
by Europeans should be extended to all civilizations?

It does make colonisation more painful for ancient civs, especially with their nasty growth modifiers. I don't have a strong opinion about this because a) it's only likely to affect human players and b) human players of ancient civs can make most of them ridiculously powerful by the colonial period, so it's not a huge handicap. In my experience China can colonise just fine, and I'm sure your AAR is going to show it's also very doable as the Phoenicians.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

And that's apart from the absurdity of treating a bathhouse as a religious institution.

Even if you are Christian and/or Eurocentric, surely you've heard of ritual purification?

Turkish Baths are built as annex buildings of mosques, so that people can cleanse their bodies before prayer.

 

[Pavel Chichikov]

the area's capacity to produce food was still larger then today. the Mongolian invasion is what truely lead to Arabia being unable to support itself food wise. The canals that had been built over the previous 4 thousand years( they started building the first ones a very very long time ago) all got destroyed by the Mongolians. Most of those canals have yet to been rebuilt. 6 hundred years later...which brings us to one more thing: had Mongolia or the seileds not invaded, those areas would produce much more food today.

The Zaratruthians getting a wonder...their is no reason. It stops spreading automatically after 1000 AD. It also had one major issue: only Babylon and Perisia worshiped a religion that could be conceived as this. eastern Orthodox also doesn't have as much supporting it: The Eastern Roman Empire collapsed, most the Baltic conquered. Russia was the only major orthodox nation. Some orthodox wonders are already in as Islamic wonders(some of those were built that's orthodox catherdals and the likes.) most world renown orthodox buildings are represented. Some through graphically mistake. that's not the kremlin, but Saint Basil's Cathedral. The Kremlin is actually a massive complex that does include the Cathedral. The Kremlin itself is 4 palaces, 4 Cathedrals, the walls, and the watch towers in it. A kremlin is actually just a term for a style of citadel, primarily having been used by Russia. Moscow Kremlin is just the most famous. And most people relate St Basil's Cathedral with the Kremlin.

See this is the one thing I really dislike about the RFC outlook.
History only seems to drift in inevitable directions after the fact.
Zorastrianism stops spreading after 1000 AD? Why? Every single game it gets wiped out by Arabs and the Iranian respawn.
The Persians could have beaten the Arabs, the Roman Church could have easily been snuffed out many times in it's early history, the 4th Crusade could have never happened, the Roman Empire could have adopted Mithraism (which would probably mean Zorastrianism would be the worlds largest religion today) as state-religion, ect. ect. ect.

I strongly believe every Religion should have equal (if different) merits in the game, it's simply bad game design to play as a Civ with a State-Religion that has no merits to keep in gameplay terms.
Orthodoxy (in this game, anything that isn't Roman Christianity or it's reactions) was the main religion of Armenians, Georgians, Assyrians, Syrians, Egyptians, Babylonians/Mandeans, Berbers, Ethiopians and had at time of Arab conquests been making major inroads into Persia (the last Sassanian Shah was buried with Nestorian rites), Central Asia and Southern India.

Well to be really exhaustive, you could say the Bedouins, Muslim Arabs, Seljuks, Mongols, Timurids were all essentially different waves of the same nomadic invasions of the area, each leaving the place less fertile.

 

[J. pride]

Well to be really exhaustive, you could say the Bedouins, Muslim Arabs, Seljuks, Mongols, Timurids were all essentially different waves of the same nomadic invasions of the area, each leaving the place less fertile.

Arabs and the Seljuks never caused widespread destruction or chaos. Mongols and Timurids were notorious for destruction. Saying that the Arabs or the Seljuks caused destruction is like saying that Normans caused widespread destruction in England or the Romans in Greece.

 

[blizzrd]

Arabs and the Seljuks never caused widespread destruction or chaos. Mongols and Timurids were notorious for destruction. Saying that the Arabs or the Seljuks caused destruction is like saying that Normans caused widespread destruction in England or the Romans in Greece.

Indeed, well said.

I particularly like the inclusion of the non-playable Seljuks that we have in the mod now rather than the scripted spawns of barbarian units from RFC. It allows for the appropriate reduction of Byzantine/Arab holdings area without the confounded razing of everything that comes with the barbarian mechanic.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Indeed, well said.

I particularly like the inclusion of the non-playable Seljuks that we have in the mod now rather than the scripted spawns of barbarian units from RFC. It allows for the appropriate reduction of Byzantine/Arab holdings area without the confounded razing of everything that comes with the barbarian mechanic.

Seconded.

It's a great source of experience and GGs as well.

 

[Pavel Chichikov]

Arabs and the Seljuks never caused widespread destruction or chaos. Mongols and Timurids were notorious for destruction. Saying that the Arabs or the Seljuks caused destruction is like saying that Normans caused widespread destruction in England or the Romans in Greece.

I don't see this going anywhere good...but I have to rebutt.
I do not know any good English-language sources on-hand for this, but I'm telling this wasn't the case.
There is a pretty good case that the nomadic Arab invasions were the true cause (cutting Europe off from the world by blockading the Mediterreanean) for the death of Classical civilization, not the Germanic tribes, who were really just fleeing from the Huns and saught refuge and assimilation in the Roman Empire.

 

[J. pride]

I don't see this going anywhere good...but I have to rebutt.
I do not know any good English-language sources on-hand for this, but I'm telling this wasn't the case.
There is a pretty good case that the nomadic Arab invasions were the true cause (cutting Europe off from the world by blockading the Mediterreanean) for the death of Classical civilization, not the Germanic tribes, who were really just fleeing from the Huns and saught refuge and assimilation in the Roman Empire.

Although, I wont discount what you said I certainly havent heard it. And secondly its irrelevant. You said that the Arabs and the Seljuks exhausted Mesopotamia and made it less fertile; that was not the case. It has nothing to do with the decline of classical civilization in the west

On a side note, why does it matter to the Arabs that their expansion somehow "supposedly" cut off the Europeans. As far as the Arabs were concerned, they themselves made great progress in the field of science, math and philosophy. The Classical "Enlightenment" never stopped for them until 1300s.

 

[ace99]

No such thing as classical civilization.

 

[Pavel Chichikov]

If you like, but you know what I mean.

 

[ace99]

Not really. I assume you're making the Classical/Dark Age distinction, but the notion of "Dark Ages" have been discredited.

 

[ius_iurandi]

A good point. So either the effect needs to be weakened, or it needs to be obsoleted by a tech it would be painful not to have by the time an Arab player could conquer one of those cities, build the wonder, and boost the population.



It does make colonisation more painful for ancient civs, especially with their nasty growth modifiers. I don't have a strong opinion about this because a) it's only likely to affect human players and b) human players of ancient civs can make most of them ridiculously powerful by the colonial period, so it's not a huge handicap. In my experience China can colonise just fine, and I'm sure your AAR is going to show it's also very doable as the Phoenicians.

I would say that Paper, Gunpowder, Education, and Optics are good candidate techs for a "House of Wisdom" wonder to expire. It was razed in 1258, so I think Gundpowder might make the most sense, but the "tech farthest down the tree the Seljuks start with" could be a good proxy.

The HoW over-powering could be stopped very easily. Much like a shrine, it could simply be capped at 20 (or 15?), no? (That's originally how I thought the Empire State Building was going to function. After I built it in NYC sans Boston, I slowly became quite pleased.)

I'm really starting to love the idea of Madrassas replacing Universities, making them available at Paper, and trading a scientist slot (or two) for a priest (or two). They may have to be 10~25 hammers more expensive, as a result? Even if House of Wisdom wasn't allowed, this could well represent the IGA.

I'm still not against the "Supreme Council allowed at start" UP, but I might like another couple ideas I had even more. Ordered from worst to best:

Power of the Caliph
Supreme Council allowed at start.

Power of the Desert Traders/Warriors:
+1 or +1 from desert or floodplains tiles until Renaissance Era.

Power of the Sword of Islam
No resistance in conquered cities.

(Here, the Sword more refers to how Walid successfully conquered and held territory so easily: I considered combat bonuses, but Camel Archers are good enough as is.)