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Maybe you should read that whole article you cited? There's more than I'm quoting here, just a few quick examples, but that whole page is about how sexism affects women. You've really proven me right, thank you! Sexism is a type of prejudice and bigotry, specifically those against women.

(everything below is copied from your link)

It has been characterized as the "hatred of women" and "entrenched prejudice against women".

Psychologists Mary Crawford and Rhoda Unger define sexism as a form of prejudice held by individuals that encompasses "negative attitudes and values about women as a group."

Feminist author bell hooks defines sexism as a system of oppression that results in disadvantages for women.[18] Feminist philosopher Marilyn Frye defines sexism as an "attitudinal-conceptual-cognitive-orientational complex" of male supremacy, male chauvinism, and misogyny.

Suffrage and politics

Annie Kenney and Christabel Pankhurst.
Gender has been used, at times, as a tool for discrimination against women in the political sphere. Women's suffrage was not achieved until 1893, when New Zealand was the first country to grant women the right to vote. Saudi Arabia was the most recent country, as of August 2015, to extend the right to vote to women in 2011.[65] Some Western countries allowed women the right to vote only relatively recently: Swiss women gained the right to vote in federal elections in 1971,[66] and Appenzell Innerrhoden became the last canton to grant women the right to vote on local issues (in 1991, when it was forced to do so by the Federal Supreme Court of Switzerland).[67] French women were granted the right to vote in 1944.[68][69] In Greece, women obtained the right to vote in 1952.[70] In Liechtenstein, women obtained the right to vote in 1984, through the women's suffrage referendum of 1984.[71][72]

While almost every woman today has the right to vote, there is still progress to be made for women in politics. Studies have shown that in several democracies including Australia, Canada and the United States, women are still represented using gender stereotypes in the press.[73] Multiple authors have shown that gender differences in the media are less evident today than they used to be in the 1980s, but are nonetheless still present. Certain issues (e.g., education) are likely to be linked with female candidates, while other issues (e.g., taxes) are likely to be linked with male candidates.[73] In addition, there is more emphasis on female candidates' personal qualities, such as their appearance and their personality, as females are portrayed as emotional and dependent.[73]

Sexism in politics can also be shown in the imbalance of law making power between men and women. Lanyan Chen stated that men hold more political power than women, serving as the gatekeepers of policy making. It is possible that this leads to women's needs not being properly represented. In this sense, the inequality of law making power also causes the gender discrimination in politics.[74] The ratio of women to men in legislatures is used as a measure of gender equality in the UN created Gender Empowerment Measure and its newer incarnation the Gender Inequality Index.

In language

Sexism in language exists when language devalues members of a certain gender.[79] Sexist language, in many instances, promotes male superiority.[80] Sexism in language affects consciousness, perceptions of reality, encoding and transmitting cultural meanings and socialization.[79] Researchers have pointed to the semantic rule in operation in language of the male-as-norm.[81] This results in sexism as the male becomes the standard and those who are not male are relegated to the inferior.[81] Sexism in language is considered a form of indirect sexism, in that it is not always overt.[82]

Examples include:

  • The use of generic masculine terms to reference a group of mixed gender, such as "mankind", "man" (referring to humanity), "guys", or "officers and men"
  • The use of the singular masculine pronoun (he, his, him) as the default to refer to a person of unknown gender
  • Terms ending in "-man" that may be performed by those of non-male genders, such as businessman, chairman, or policeman
  • The use of unnecessary gender markers, such as "male nurse" implying that simply a "nurse" is by default assumed to be female.
 
A rule of thumb:

Consider which white Americans talk most about "racism against whites is real!" and what they actually mean.

Compare with those men who repeatedly insist that "misandry is real!".

I'd say there is more malice in the first group and plenty of ignorance in both, and lots of bad faith actors.
 
Maybe you should read that whole article you cited? There's more than I'm quoting here, just a few quick examples, but that whole page is about how sexism affects women. You've really proven me right, thank you! Sexism is a type of prejudice and bigotry, specifically those against women.
The article specifically states that sexism may affect anyone, men and women. If you read it whole, you probably didn't miss for example, "Conscription" chapter, as well as references to "Misandry", "Violence against men" and other pages in "See also" section.

Another thing which wasn't mentioned is retirement age gap, still existing in many countries (Israel, Czechia, Austria, China, Russia...). Where women's retirement age is lower than men's, typically by 5 years.
 
A rule of thumb:

Consider which white Americans talk most about "racism against whites is real!" and what they actually mean.

Compare with those men who repeatedly insist that "misandry is real!".

I'd say there is more malice in the first group and plenty of ignorance in both, and lots of bad faith actors.

I think misandry obviously exists.

Hmm, so I guess you two aren't friends any more then?

It's kind of funny that all I've really objected to is the assertion that acknowledging the existence of misandry means that I hate women, and that this leads to lovely comments about being a member of the Dylan Roof fan club. Yet someone who's on the "right" side gets away with a free pass to acknowledge the existence of misandry.

I hope it's becoming clear why I refer to you as horrible people. I doubt you'll do any self reflection personally of course, but I hope it's at least clear to other people who read these threads.

Moderator Action: I had hoped that my last post made it clear what not to do going forward. Warned for trolling. - ori
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
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Hmm, so I guess you two aren't friends any more then?

It's kind of funny that all I've really objected to is the assertion that acknowledging the existence of misandry means that I hate women, and that this leads to lovely comments about being a member of the Dylan Roof fan club. Yet someone who's on the "right" side gets away with a free pass to acknowledge the existence of misandry.

I hope it's becoming clear why I refer to you as horrible people. I doubt you'll do any self reflection personally of course, but I hope it's at least clear to other people who read these threads.

This isn't even a clever gotcha. Lexicus doesn't have a persistent habit of insisting on misandry being as great a problem as misogyny as a mean to derail discussion. You do.

You have self described as an anti-feminist in the past, so yeah, I read your words in that context and Lexicus words in his personal context. You do not discuss these subjects earnestly.
 
Lexicus doesn't have a persistent habit of insisting on misandry being as great a problem as misogyny as a mean to derail discussion.
But he seems to admit that misandry exists, which was the main discussion point for the last few pages.
Frankly, it amazes me how people can deny mere existence of the thing researched and described in dozens books, articles and dictionaries.
 
It is unfair to frame this as if a bunch of bad apples came along and started yelling "Misandry exists! Misandry exists!" out of the blue. There were several people, many of them man, going back and forth about real prejudices they have faced, actual things that had happened to them, no doubt because they are men. They were then were told, not only that their problems don't actually exist, but that the mere fact that they think they exist is, itself, a form of sexism. If you don't want people yelling about how misandry exists, I would suggest being more clear about what you are saying doesn't exist. Saying "Misandry doesn't exist", while knowing such a word has different meaning to different people, is a statement designed to get a reaction. It's a rhetorical move, not an insight.
 
@Lexicus quite clearly said to me earlier he agrees there's no comparison between what men and women go through, so even if he's not being completely clear on word meanings he understands very well what real issues are. I find many times at this forum I see so many love to derail conversations by quibbling over perceived technical meanings of words instead of intent really behind them. I'm not going to feel anything ill about Lexicus or his points of view, he's one of the most enlightened men at this forum, and I'd love if more of you were like him.

Conscription is an example of sexism .. against women. Because women weren't just not conscripted, women weren't even allowed to serve in the military at all, because women are inferior and can't possibly lead soldiers in battle, and that's a glory and honor reserved only for men. Many women have pretended to be men to serve, and when found out are executed. Are you familiar with Mulan? Or have you ever seen GI Jane? How many American presidents were war heroes? Women aren't being conscripted now because nobody's being conscripted by countries like the United States, England, Canada, and so on.

I feel it's really telling someone could look at an article that's expressly about how women suffer from sexism, and see maybe one line about sexism affecting both genders, and then somehow feel you can say there's any kind of equilibrium. And I do believe men suffer from sexism, it's called toxic masculinity, which is about hurting you as a man when you lower yourself to a woman's level by doing something too feminine. It's about putting down femininity and womanhood, and it's absolutely harmful to some men (but all women).

And I'm looking at "See More", and I find no links to pages about misandry, or violence against men. And I totally agree there's violence against men, performed by other men. Men attack and hurt black men, and homosexual men, and transgender men (and women), and men from other gangs, and on and on. I agree it's horrible. You know know men are responsible for more than 99% of homicides worldwide, right?

Almost all those "See More" links are about more ways women suffer from sexism, and different types of organizations and movements about that. And I clicked on "Men's rights movement," and it's clear how it even defines itself as anti-feminist (which is a synonym for misogynist), and how it's so deeply criticized as a sexist and misogynistic thing. Really you're helping me so much with your article, you're completely proving my point, and you're also proving about how so many men willfully put on blinders and refuse to see how badly women are affected.
 
@MaryKB, I agree with you completely, there is no comparison. There isn't any kind of equilibrium. I might be mistaken, and there could be more history here, but on this thread I haven't seen anyone say there is.
 
It is unfair to frame this as if a bunch of bad apples came along and started yelling "Misandry exists! Misandry exists!" out of the blue. There were several people, many of them man, going back and forth about real prejudices they have faced, actual things that had happened to them, no doubt because they are men. They were then were told, not only that their problems don't actually exist, but that the mere fact that they think they exist is, itself, a form of sexism. If you don't want people yelling about how misandry exists, I would suggest being more clear about what you are saying doesn't exist. Saying "Misandry doesn't exist", while knowing such a word has different meaning to different people, is a statement designed to get a reaction. It's a rhetorical move, not an insight.

Hmmmm. Some people are given more leeway in regards to innocent error versus planned rhetorical maneuvers. That's part of the rare experience of this forum. In the comments section of a news site you have to look at a post and make a judgement call in a vacuum regarding the intent. Here we have all become, to varying degrees, known over time.* That means that some people might post exactly the same thing as someone else, and get a much different reaction; as illustrated by the back and forth about @Lexicus above.

Now I'll do my part and contribute to the "misandry does exist" side of the conversation. I think I can count on having no one, except of course @Manfred Belheim, try to claim this as "see, look, Tim agrees with me so I'm not nearly the heel I'm being painted as."

I was at the store yesterday; a store in a typical California strip mall. There are two buildings in a line along the east side of the parking lot, and since there are a number of not quite fast food places in them the space between them is equipped with tables to be a patio dining opportunity. That's mostly stupid, since around here a space between west facing buildings can usually be used by aerospace companies for wind tunnel testing, but that aside. As I walked towards my store I noted that there was a youngster, late teens to early twenties, sitting at one of the tables smoking a cigarette and playing with a couple of Barbie dolls. Nothing vulgar or particularly strange in the play, though whether Barbies are age appropriate there is an obvious question that maybe would merit a second glance from most people.

However, I fully expected that by the time I came out of the store I'd find the GUY surrounded by responding cops, because I was dead certain that at least one, and most likely way more than one passerby would be calling the cops on HIM, and that they would respond immediately and probably violently.

Now, just to clarify before Manfred et al try to claim me for their misogynist army, I wouldn't trade all the obvious advantages I get from being male in modern society for being allowed to play with Barbies slightly beyond my shelf date...but I do acknowledge that there is a tiny sharpness on the back of the current blade.







*right now you are an exception to this, being new here
 
Oh, you can be hurt, nobody said you weren't, so it's a lie to claim somebody is telling you how you feel. But if you are hurt, your conjuration is doing it, not Syns.
 
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Sexism certainly exists amongst women and is sometimes directed at men. I work in a predominantly female workplace and a lot of dissing men goes on in the staffroom. However the power structure still favours men. They form a higher proportion of senior staff than they occupy amongst staff as a whole. Women can be sexist and it can be unpleasant for men but it rarely holds them back in the way it does women.
 
I agree. Phantom then. It's still a lie. I would guess very much with intent.

Edit; actually, the right word is conjuration. I'll edit, thank you.
 
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@MaryKB, I agree with you completely, there is no comparison. There isn't any kind of equilibrium. I might be mistaken, and there could be more history here, but on this thread I haven't seen anyone say there is.
Thank you, I really do appreciate your response. You're absolutely right, there's definitely history here and I completely understand as a new member you wouldn't know, but thank you so much for acknowledging something like that may exist and there might be more going on. I'm so sorry you've been drawn into something so heated when you're brand new, something like that happened to me when I first came by and I was scared off for a couple months, lol.

However, I fully expected that by the time I came out of the store I'd find the GUY surrounded by responding cops, because I was dead certain that at least one, and most likely way more than one passerby would be calling the cops on HIM, and that they would respond immediately and probably violently.
Was he when you came out? I wouldn't be surprised he'd get a bad reaction either, but you're reinforcing what I've been saying above, how a big thing is he'd be judged for doing something feminine like playing with dolls, he's lowering himself to the level of a girl, and the ultimate insult for a man is to be compared to a woman. And that's what I mean about how men suffer from sexism directed at women, I fully agree he should be able to play with whatever toys he wants to in peace and he shouldn't be judged, but it's still hatred for femininity which is causing his suffering.

Sexism certainly exists amongst women and is sometimes directed at men. I work in a predominantly female workplace and a lot of dissing men goes on in the staffroom. However the power structure still favours men. They form a higher proportion of senior staff than they occupy amongst staff as a whole. Women can be sexist and it can be unpleasant for men but it rarely holds them back in the way it does women.
You're right, but I feel your last points are exactly what I'm trying to say, how there's no equivalent against men. I completely agree bigotry and hate exist, but sexism's about a system used to hold us back, and there's no such system holding men back from advancing and succeeding. Too many men will use comparisons to try and say men have it as bad (or worse!) than women, and that's why we need special words for unique struggles we face as women for which there's no male equivalent, and that's what sexism talks about (for which misogyny is enforcement)
 
imagine how pathetic a creature one must be to think "facts don't care about your feelings, snowflake" is somehow funny, or original, or even remotely acceptable in a discussion between adults. not surprised at all however by what type of people are saying it, though, that was fully expected :)
 
Conscription is an example of sexism .. against women. Because women weren't just not conscripted, women weren't even allowed to serve in the military at all, because women are inferior and can't possibly lead soldiers in battle, and that's a glory and honor reserved only for men.
This sounds like "slavery was an example of racism against whites".
No, Mary, conscription is not a privilege. In modern Russia, conscription exists for men only - army service is obligatory for men and voluntary for women. In Israel, there is conscription for both sexes, but only formally. Women can legally avoid it and even if they serve, they are rarely send to actual combat, where they can be killed.

Are you familiar with Mulan?
I'm familiar with real life. My classmate was conscripted and sent to Chechen War. I was lucky and only had to spend a month in reservist training camp, eating trash food and learning to shoot.

And I'm looking at "See More", and I find no links to pages about misandry, or violence against men.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misandry
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_men

And I totally agree there's violence against men, performed by other men. Men attack and hurt black men, and homosexual men, and transgender men (and women), and men from other gangs, and on and on. I agree it's horrible. You know know men are responsible for more than 99% of homicides worldwide, right?
In USA, in 12% of homicide cases, offender is a woman. See the second link.
Men are also more likely to become victim of violence, not only a perpetrator.
 
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Was he when you came out? I wouldn't be surprised he'd get a bad reaction either, but you're reinforcing what I've been saying above, how a big thing is he'd be judged for doing something feminine like playing with dolls, he's lowering himself to the level of a girl, and the ultimate insult for a man is to be compared to a woman. And that's what I mean about how men suffer from sexism directed at women, I fully agree he should be able to play with whatever toys he wants to in peace and he shouldn't be judged, but it's still hatred for femininity which is causing his suffering.

Happily, he was moving on and police had not yet arrived.

Personally, I think that beyond the age where sexual awareness sets in playing with dolls is kinda creepy, no matter who is doing the playing, and 'it's feminine' has nothing really to do with that. I also think that women can be judged as creepy for doing the same thing that will have a man judged as predatory. I don't think any of it is right, and I also don't think it in any way offsets the wildly imbalanced scales that women have to contend with in a vast array of areas, but I acknowledge it as real.
 
You do know most cases of women killing men is defense against domestic violence, right? Your articles still only help me. And I didn't say conscription's a privilege, I said military service has historically been an honor women aren't allowed to participate in. Yes men die in war, and yes I hate both war and conscription, but you're still not making any valid point. Almost all violence worldwide is caused by men. You're grasping at straws, and you're looking really bad continuing to try and say there's any comparison between what men and women live through.

And from your article you linked about Misandry, which is again supporting exactly what I've been saying all along:

Asymmetry with misogyny[edit]

Sociologist Allan G. Johnson argues in The Gender Knot: Unraveling our Patriarchal Legacy that accusations of man-hating have been used to put down feminists and to shift attention onto men, reinforcing a male-centered culture.[42] Johnson asserts that culture offers no comparable anti-male ideology to misogyny and that "people often confuse men as individuals with men as a dominant and privileged category of people" and that "[given the] reality of women's oppression, male privilege, and men's enforcement of both, it's hardly surprising that every woman should have moments where she resents or even hates 'men'".

Marc A. Ouellette argues in International Encyclopedia of Men and Masculinities that "misandry lacks the systemic, transhistoric, institutionalized, and legislated antipathy of misogyny"; in his view, assuming a parallel between misogyny and misandry overly simplifies relations of gender and power.[29]

Anthropologist David D. Gilmore also argues that misogyny is a "near-universal phenomenon" and that there is no male equivalent to misogyny,[43] further defending manifestations of perceived misandry as not "hatred of men's traditional male role" and a "culture of machismo". He argues that misandry is "different from the intensely ad feminam aspect of misogyny that targets women no matter what they believe or do".[43]

Happily, he was moving on and police had not yet arrived.

Personally, I think that beyond the age where sexual awareness sets in playing with dolls is kinda creepy, no matter who is doing the playing, and 'it's feminine' has nothing really to do with that. I also think that women can be judged as creepy for doing the same thing that will have a man judged as predatory. I don't think any of it is right, and I also don't think it in any way offsets the wildly imbalanced scales that women have to contend with in a vast array of areas, but I acknowledge it as real.
I play with dolls! I babysit my neighbor's seven year old daughter after she comes home from school until her mother comes home, and I play dolls with her. I have three Barbies: Agent Dana Scully, Doctor Who, and Mary Poppins. I'm thirty six years old and I hope I don't seem creepy lol.
 
just wanted to give a hats off to mary for standing up in this discussion when she's being cornered from multiple people (though I don't agree with everything she's saying)

Mouthwash also does this often times and I think it's pretty respectable, I genuinely wouldn't have the time nor the nerve to reply to this many people politely and with citing sources. that's good sportswomanship.
 
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