My experience with game

[sophie]

I love your sincerity Syn, but the problem is most men are exceptionally poor judges of women's interest and don't seem to know where to stop.

Or don't care/haven't been socially conditioned (in upbringing) to think about

 

[Lexicus]

I think it is a good rule of thumb to never hit on someone on the bus, yes. Literally all my friends (I have almost all female friends) hate to use public transportation because it’s effectively a male’s space and they feel deeply unsafe most of the time, in large part due to experiences with harassment from men. They feel this intensely enough that it’s something of a common topic of conversation.

As a mostly masculine presenting person who uses public transportation more or less daily, I have thus learned to never ever just approach women on the bus or the trolley because— here’s the real lesson— no matter how charming I think I may be, I can never know for certain how the other person might feel about my imposition. Of course, when girls approach me, I’m perfectly happy to interact back, and my friends have also impressed on me the importance of being aware and acting as an ally in situations where women and girls seem uncomfortable in interactions with males. Luckily I’ve never felt the need to intervene.

As I understand it, women and girls live in a sort of twisted catch 22 when it comes to these sorts of forced public spaces where they have no choice of whether to be alone or to be in the company of men. My friends have expressed this kind of constant anxiety: girls and women doing NOTHING to signal interest are often approached anyway, by entitled men who demand attention. They’ll have headphones ripped out of their ears, hands waved in their faces, and all too often they’ll even be physically grabbed or otherwise touched. Men can and will enact violence on girls they believe they are entitled to the attention of, and this does and has manifested as assault, rape, even murder. So what do you do? Ignoring men doesn’t work, and my friends often fear that itself might be what invites violence itself. But here’s the catch— the sort of token politeness that these same entitled men lament the absence of can then be taken as an invitation, like suggested above. “Why don’t women just smile more? They refuse to even look at me!” And that can breed violence in itself.

These are all feelings and experiences that women and girls around me have expressed frequently enough to convince me that I should probably never just take behavior in these public places as a given invitation, and should mind my own business until girls or women approach me. And so
kind of how I try to base my behavior.

I mean, I'm on the same page with you here, which is why I specifically said don't talk to a woman if she's wearing headphones - I used that exact example already!

I'm aware of these concerns - I too have female friends who have spoken of this stuff with me, plus I read a good amount of feminist content on the internet. I just can't make myself believe that it's any kind of "imposition" to smile back at someone and say "hi." That is on the order of what I'm talking about, not telling her your life story or running a "routine" or a dropping a pick-up line.

 

[AmazonQueen]

I, or inthesomeday, can't make up for the sins of neanderthalic men. Social isolation doesn't appear to be a realistic or helpful response in the face of there being other hostile actors who share basic anatomy with us.

What we can do is act respectfully, which is essentially what you should do anyways, really. You make an innocuous approach and you let the other person decide whether or not to bridge the gap. I don't see how segregating women from daily society is a solution. Putting the burden of social contact and engagement entirely on the shoulders of women doesn't seem, to me, to have any logical impact on whether or not a hostile man will respect you.

Agree.
I have had bad experiences with men in nightclubs and pubs, and on public transport and the street but most men aren't like that and I don't want to live my life in purdah because of the few who are.

 

[AdamCrock]

Spoiler Valentine's Day :

A funny picture for valentine's day
It's says "everyone" at the top and "me" at the botom. It reflects me well , I'm da playah baby !

 

[Phrossack]

As far as I can tell, approaching women in person carries a very high risk of making them uncomfortable. Hell, I've been brusquely told by a woman, "Just don't talk to me," just because I was walking near her when we both had to cross the street at the same time. I hadn't spoken a word and had no intention of doing so. I get the sense that as a man, my mere presence is threatening. On top of that, few people share any interests of mine, so odds are a random stranger wouldn't either, and then I'd have the awkward task of gracefully leaving an uninteresting conversation they never asked for.

So let the women come, if it's dating they want. If they don't like being approached, then they can do the approaching. If they don't, that's on them, not something they can blame me for.

Of course, this doesn't apply when you know the woman personally, or it's a setting like a meetup with mutual friends where interaction is expected. I'm talking about chatting up strangers in, say, bars.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I love your sincerity Syn, but the problem is most men are exceptionally poor judges of women's interest and don't seem to know where to stop.

That's a misandrist/sexist statement. It's also incoherent .

As far as I can tell, approaching women in person carries a very high risk of making them uncomfortable. Hell, I've been brusquely told by a woman, "Just don't talk to me," just because I was walking near her when we both had to cross the street at the same time.

I've never seen this, that example *does* seem to be an exception. Unless you're just staring at people for 5 minutes in advance or something you shouldn't expect to encounter that reaction often.

 

[The_J]

EDIT: I hope I'm not butchering the quotes too much.

I do see a lot of "social gaming" as exploitive or dishonest. For example, one is expected to show some interest in what others have to say. If someone else talks to me about, say, sports, or The Office, or her day in music class, I struggle to feign interest and usually try to find a way to gracefully change the topic or escape the conversation. I just can't trick them into thinking I care. Nor can I feign confidence, or feign friendliness, or do all these other acts of pretending we're expected to do.

I don't feel it's about trying to feign interest, but rather when you really take interest in someone else and what's important to her. I can completely understand how you don't have an interest in something your partner does, but caring about someone is also about caring what's important to her, and she'll likely be very upset when you refuse to talk about her interests and only change the subject. You're not going to only talk about mutual interests with another person, you'll share things important to you and she'll share things important to her, and together both of you will explore each other. You don't want to feign any of those things, someone would hope you'd really feel confident, and be friendly and not be pretending.

@Phrossack is utterly interesting to me. because he likes horses and old battleships and archery and has a generally unique outlook on life. I would be interested in him if I was a cute girl (hopefully in another life..? :lol ) would most women? I doubt it.

This is all true.
It's hard to show interest if the other person is not interesting. But you can make it yourself interesting (game teaches that), or the other person could be taught to be more interesting.
And then you will find it interesting. One of the main messages which some of the talking lessons in game teaches is that if you find something interesting, the other person will find it interesting too.
As an example I have a male friend of mine. He is a very good talker (and not into game at all). Once, during lunch, he talked for full 15 minutes about weird samurai helmets he found on google. And it was super interesting. Do I care about samurai helmets? Would I talk about images on google? Would I find this interesting? No, normally not. But this guy was so amazed by it, he made it really interesting. He has some conversation skills, which are just great. (the samurai helmets are only an example, he can talk about nearly anything)

Same for Phrossak. You say/he says his hobbies might not be interesting. But it's how you talk about them. You can say "I have some nerdy little side hobbies, nothing more". Or you can say how the last time you rode with a horse through an amazing scenery, how it smelled, how it felt, what you say... and it will be interesting. With enough details, with enough passion I'll easily listen to this for a half hour. With the first description... it#s a sentence.
This also has nothing to do with faking. If you think it is interesting, you need the skills to sell it (yes, a transaction) as interesting. It will be interesting for all conversation partners. And you'll have a great interaction.

You don't see how him talking about women solely in terms of physical attractiveness is demeaning? Are you even aware at all about sexual objectification of women?

If that's the only information I have...?
If I see a random person, I'll describe them as black, tall, fat, hot, whatever. It's a description of the outerior, nothing else.

He only talks about how he's trying to have sex with as many attractive women as he can. He doesn't view women as people, but just physical objects in a game he's playing. I feel like you're totally missing the whole point here?

This sounds like you don't see sex as a nice interaction between 2 people (which it should be, but sometimes isn't).
Trying to have as much sex with as many people should lead to many nice interactions between people (because... you don't only have sex, there is a social interaction beforehand, you go on a date, etc). I don't think that trying to have much sex is seeing other people as objects. If so, you'd have sex with your vacuum cleaner. It's explicetely seeing other people as people.

self improvement for the sake of "improving" or "scoring" is literally just vanity though and i'd hardly say it makes anybody grow as a person, especially when i look at my gymbros. if anything, their idea of self improvement made them worse people.

I think we both agree that they're probably doing something wrong.

but I think when you say "interesting" you really mean "desirable", and when you mean "desirable" you really mean "makes women choose you over another", which is really just part of the game, which is what people are constantly telling you. no person is inherently interesting, it's utterly subjective, that much we agree on, right?

you become a more interesting person by chasing your own passions, not via self-improvement.

Yes, the first part is true, I admit. No issue here.
And maybe improving myself is my passion? No, not really, but it helps me to figure them out, I thik. Or having lots of sex is maybe my passion? I think at the moment this might even be. I don't have any problems with that.

They’ll have headphones ripped out of their ears, hands waved in their faces, and all too often they’ll even be physically grabbed or otherwise touched. Men can and will enact violence on girls they believe they are entitled to the attention of, and this does and has manifested as assault, rape, even murder. So what do you do? Ignoring men doesn’t work, and my friends often fear that itself might be what invites violence itself. [...]
These are all feelings and experiences that women and girls around me have expressed frequently enough to convince me that I should probably never just take behavior in these public places as a given invitation, and should mind my own business until girls or women approach me. And so that’s kind of how I try to base my behavior.

Uh... this sounds like you assume that anyone here is suggesting that. I hope it really doesn't read so, because nobody says that this is the behaviour you should display.
Yes, women get harrased. This is bad. You should not do this. But talking to someone is, if done in a normal and polite way, not harrasment.

As far as I can tell, approaching women in person carries a very high risk of making them uncomfortable.

That is true.
But what's the trade-off here?
Option a) You approach her, she feels slightly uncomfortable for the next 5 minutes while you might be talking absolute BS (or maybe not), until you figure out it's not going anywhere
Option b) you approach her, the conversation is amazing, she gives you her numbe, you go out, it is amazing, and she is the love of your life.
Yes, option b is unlikely. You can still end up with nice conversations though.
What's someone's possible minor discomfort in my quest for the big love? Not much.

before someone is trying to misquote me: "Minor discomfort". Harrasment is not, rape is not. I'm not suggesting any of that.

So let the women come, if it's dating they want. If they don't like being approached, then they can do the approaching. If they don't, that's on them, not something they can blame me for.

Well, equality might come, but right now it's still so that if you want a date, or more, you need to do it. This is not necessarily a matter of sexism, but of self confidence. You might be missing out.

 

[Lexicus]

Hell, I've been brusquely told by a woman, "Just don't talk to me," just because I was walking near her when we both had to cross the street at the same time. I hadn't spoken a word and had no intention of doing so.

That is really rude, if someone did that to me it would hurt my feelings and I'd probably think about it for days afterward wondering what the hell I did wrong.

 

[Phrossack]

EDIT: I hope I'm not butchering the quotes too much.


This is all true.
It's hard to show interest if the other person is not interesting. But you can make it yourself interesting (game teaches that), or the other person could be taught to be more interesting.
And then you will find it interesting. One of the main messages which some of the talking lessons in game teaches is that if you find something interesting, the other person will find it interesting too.
As an example I have a male friend of mine. He is a very good talker (and not into game at all). Once, during lunch, he talked for full 15 minutes about weird samurai helmets he found on google. And it was super interesting. Do I care about samurai helmets? Would I talk about images on google? Would I find this interesting? No, normally not. But this guy was so amazed by it, he made it really interesting. He has some conversation skills, which are just great. (the samurai helmets are only an example, he can talk about nearly anything)

Same for Phrossak. You say/he says his hobbies might not be interesting. But it's how you talk about them. You can say "I have some nerdy little side hobbies, nothing more". Or you can say how the last time you rode with a horse through an amazing scenery, how it smelled, how it felt, what you say... and it will be interesting. With enough details, with enough passion I'll easily listen to this for a half hour. With the first description... it#s a sentence.
This also has nothing to do with faking. If you think it is interesting, you need the skills to sell it (yes, a transaction) as interesting. It will be interesting for all conversation partners. And you'll have a great interaction.

I agree that an engaging speaker can make most topics interesting. And I agree with that guy that samurai helmets are exceptionally interesting, be they the zunari, hachi-bachi, ō-yoroi, or other types But do we need the idea of "game" for that?

You may say that "game," to you, is purely the art of making oneself more interesting and likable. But when others hear that word, they think of PUAs who try to collect women like Pokémon, and that rankles them.

That is true.
But what's the trade-off here?
Option a) You approach her, she feels slightly uncomfortable for the next 5 minutes while you might be talking absolute BS (or maybe not), until you figure out it's not going anywhere
Option b) you approach her, the conversation is amazing, she gives you her numbe, you go out, it is amazing, and she is the love of your life.
Yes, option b is unlikely. You can still end up with nice conversations though.
What's someone's possible minor discomfort in my quest for the big love? Not much.

before someone is trying to misquote me: "Minor discomfort". Harrasment is not, rape is not. I'm not suggesting any of that.

Well, equality might come, but right now it's still so that if you want a date, or more, you need to do it. This is not necessarily a matter of sexism, but of self confidence. You might be missing out.

The risk is greater than that, I think. Women mention all the time how they're approached and harassed by men. To some women, trying to chat them up could be seen as harassment, even if that was never the man's intention. So I never just approach women unless we're already in a situation where it's acceptable to speak to them (board game night, hanging out with mutual friends, etc).

As for equality, equal rights and equal responsibilities should go together. It's not a healthy dating culture when women don't feel they should take the initiative, or when men feel they must do so. If a woman is uncomfortable with being approached, let her approach. If she's also uncomfortable with approaching, then maybe dating men isn't for her. In any case there would be less harassment if men approached less and women did so more.

 

[Farm Boy]

As far as I can tell, approaching women in person carries a very high risk of making them uncomfortable. Hell, I've been brusquely told by a woman, "Just don't talk to me," just because I was walking near her when we both had to cross the street at the same time. I hadn't spoken a word and had no intention of doing so.

What a jackass.

They happen, in life.

 

[Phrossack]

That is really rude, if someone did that to me it would hurt my feelings and I'd probably think about it for days afterward wondering what the hell I did wrong.

What a jackass.

They happen, in life.

Combine that with an abusive and misandrist past date, a lack of good dates, and the daily stream of women talking about their issues with all men, and it starts to make sense why I'm so cautious. I'm keenly aware that odds are, my presence is unwelcome.

 

[The_J]

You need to have some good XP there.
Try some speeddating. Everyone there is looking for a good time, in one way or the other.

I agree that an engaging speaker can make most topics interesting. And I agree with that guy that samurai helmets are exceptionally interesting, be they the zunari, hachi-bachi, ō-yoroi, or other types But do we need the idea of "game" for that?

You may say that "game," to you, is purely the art of making oneself more interesting and likable. But when others hear that word, they think of PUAs who try to collect women like Pokémon, and that rankles them.

That is true, and people like this do exist. That's not good. Nobody should be like that. But that's also not the philosophy behind.
It's not only the way of making yourself interesting, but it's a good part of it. And no, you don't game for this. But you can use it as one way. If you have other means, other things which work for you...that is also okay. You pick what you like.

The risk is greater than that, I think. Women mention all the time how they're approached and harassed by men. To some women, trying to chat them up could be seen as harassment, even if that was never the man's intention.

Well...yes, sure. But in this whole world, there are always people who are unreasonable (not only in this way), and that is their problem. The minor percentage there shouldn't stop you.

As for equality, equal rights and equal responsibilities should go together. It's not a healthy dating culture when women don't feel they should take the initiative, or when men feel they must do so. If a woman is uncomfortable with being approached, let her approach. If she's also uncomfortable with approaching, then maybe dating men isn't for her.

This is also absolutely true, I agree.
But I see this more practically: While I would like it to be like this, it is right now not. And I need to deal with right now. So I do approach women, because they don't.
This behaviour is not "oppressive" or negative in any way, so I don't see a problem adhering to the status-quo, although I'd like it to change.

In any case there would be less harassment if men approached less and women did so more.

But also a good amount less of nice interactions, which I think are waaaayyy more prevalent.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The risk is greater than that, I think. Women mention all the time how they're approached and harassed by men. To some women, trying to chat them up could be seen as harassment, even if that was never the man's intention.

Brushing your teeth "could be seen as harassment", but let's deal in reality instead of that.

That said, it doesn't take anywhere near 5 minutes to determine whether someone is interested in talking after saying something to them. In most cases it won't even take 1.

As for equality, equal rights and equal responsibilities should go together.

While true, that responsibility is not taken equally. Not by women, not by men. If the pushes for equality were genuine, we would expect behaviors to approach a position where responsibility *is* taken equally. But it doesn't happen.

In any case there would be less harassment if men approached less and women did so more.

I suspect there would actually be a similar amount of harassment, less done by men and more done by women, if such a trend were to ever occur. That said, this would remain a small percentage of interactions just as it is now.

 

[Lexicus]

If a woman is uncomfortable with being approached, let her approach. If she's also uncomfortable with approaching, then maybe dating men isn't for her. In any case there would be less harassment if men approached less and women did so more.

I totally agree with you which is why one of the things I'm interested in is shifting to help with this problem is the tremendous cultural pressure that makes men the approachers and women the approachees. Part of the reason I find it so hot when women make moves on me is because that shows they're sufficiently attracted to me to overcome that massive cultural bias.

Combine that with an abusive and misandrist past date, a lack of good dates, and the daily stream of women talking about their issues with all men, and it starts to make sense why I'm so cautious. I'm keenly aware that odds are, my presence is unwelcome.

Yeah, I recognize this because this was me about a year ago. I figured I was never going to talk to another woman again because things seemed so messed up. It didn't last.

Another angle on this: I read a couple of interesting articles about dating apps not that long ago, and both of them mentioned a sense that the mere existence of dating apps has made approaching people in public "inappropriate" because why would you do this when you can just get on the app?

I wonder if anyone else has any thoughts on that. I think it would be a great tragedy if, like, spontaneous interaction in public space were replaced entirely by swiping.

 

[The_J]

I've heard someone saying someting similar. I think it's nuts.
In some minor way makes sense, because only you can at least see who is willed, and who's available.
But on the other hand, you are not able to show your personality online, and real human interactions are just great. Also not everyone tries online, because... honestly, I find online dating real crap (Yes, I don't have much success there, but even if a converation gets going on, I'm really bored by it, unless I move it to RL). Dating has worked for ages in RL, and there's nothing wrong with it.

 

[MaryKB]

Boys, please do remember "misandry" isn't a real word, it's a very sexist and misogynistic thing to say, and there's no such thing as reverse sexism (just like with racism). You can have women who hate men for sure and blame men for problems, but that's not at all the same thing, you know? Misogyny's opposite is feminism.

Dating has worked for ages in RL, and there's nothing wrong with it.

Who do you feel it's working for exactly? And nothing wrong with it? Wow, what a very male-centric and privileged way of thinking you're showing here. So you've never heard of sexual harassment, or worse, date rape?

I do totally appreciate what some of you are saying, and I agree I'd love if you could just approach someone and start talking. What I feel is worrisome is when you want to create all the rules yourselves and you decide when things are okay. So a man approaches a woman and tries to "hit on her", and he'll gauge her reaction if she's reciprocating interest, and if he feels she is he can continue pursuing her, right? Well my problem is he's the one making judgement calls, and frankly I don't feel men have a very good track record at all with this sort of thing. I feel it's always dangerous when a bunch of men get together and start talking amongst themselves and deciding on "rules" and "codes of conduct", honestly my stomach knots up reading it.

I feel your best way forward is getting to know someone before you even consider asking her about a romantic relationship .. like be friends or something. You can get involved in all kinds of things, and I guarantee you many single people are out there you can meet, get to know, and then decide if you feel maybe a romantic relationship would work. Why would you even want to just start dating someone you know absolutely nothing about? I really don't understand that.

I've never in my life had a positive experience with a man just approaching me out of nowhere.

 

[Synobun]

You and I have generally been on the same page but in this I am more than comfortable being a villain. I'm not willing to classify myself as a threat due to someone else's transgressions.

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

Why did you pick this route instead of simply treating women like people?

Good question for a movie character.

 

[MaryKB]

You and I have generally been on the same page but in this I am more than comfortable being a villain. I'm not willing to classify myself as a threat due to someone else's transgressions.

I don't consider you a threat, and oh dear I feel I'm probably not explaining what I mean very well then. It's not about you being a threat, but about understanding how a woman might view a situation because of her experiences. Like for example, imagine you're a vegetarian lion. Well a gazelle doesn't know that, but everything she knows about lions makes her afraid, so she's naturally going to be cautious of you, right?

You have to know men have done many, many horrible things to women, and still do, so demanding women just "get over it" and put themselves at risk because you personally are a wonderful and gentle man doesn't make sense to me - but maybe we're miscommunicating? I'm just sort of trying to please ask to look at things from another perspective.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I love your sincerity Syn, but the problem is most men are exceptionally poor judges of women's interest and don't seem to know where to stop.

Sometimes they take a simple "hi" in a lobby as an invitation to push their way into the woman's suite later that night, resulting in months of said woman being afraid to even leave the suite for fear of running into him again.

I don't see how segregating women from daily society is a solution.

It works so well in the countries where women are forced to wrap themselves up in burkas, hijabs, and not allowed to leave the house without a male's permission, right? Or in India, where teenage girls are raped and murdered and the authorities don't seem to care much.

That is really rude, if someone did that to me it would hurt my feelings and I'd probably think about it for days afterward wondering what the hell I did wrong.

In the example given, nothing was done wrong other than the woman just assuming that a man who happened to share a crosswalk with her wanted to talk to her.

She could have been having a rotten day, or she could have had bad experiences with men. She might hate men just in general. But the rudeness was completely hers.

And who strikes up a conversation on a crosswalk anyway? Granted, sometimes people here smile and say "hi" or "good morning" (yes, sometimes in the middle of a crosswalk) but that's just ordinary courtesy and nobody expects it to go any further.

Combine that with an abusive and misandrist past date, a lack of good dates, and the daily stream of women talking about their issues with all men, and it starts to make sense why I'm so cautious. I'm keenly aware that odds are, my presence is unwelcome.

Is your presence unwelcome here? No. If you're similar in person as you are here, I think you just need to find people with compatible interests (I know, not easy when you're into Samurai helmets and archery, which is why I mentioned the Society for Creative Anachronism - there are definitely people - including women - in that organization who would share these interests).

Why would you even want to just start dating someone you know absolutely nothing about? I really don't understand that.

Welcome to what I've asked in nearly every "I don't understand women" or "How do I get a date?" thread I've ever seen here over the past 15 years. Finding a significant other is not like picking out a new computer.