My experience with game

[red_elk]

It's why men need to stop talking and listen.

There's a lot of things in this thread which you should read and learn, instead of offering your own limited experience. Much less trying to shut anyone's mouth.

 

[ori]

Moderator Action: One more time:

Moderator Action: If anyone cannot participate in this discussion without attacking other users be it directly or indirectly they need to stop participating now (or I will help out with that).

This includes anyone who tells others to stop talking - if you are unwilling to engage in discussion with someone ignore them but do not tell others to leave the discussion.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[MaryKB]

I believe they're really afraid, afraid of losing power and privilege, and I understand they're afraid but I simply cannot sympathize as much as I wish I could. When you're in a position of power over people, and if those people become equal to you then you lose your power, so I feel it's natural to be afraid, just that it's also frightening and disturbing. I'm not upset with men starting from a position of fear, but I get frustrated when I see a man refusing to listen and he's clinging to his patriarchy so desperately. I was really disturbed by his comment you quoted, I see things like that all the time, and I just know nothing good's going to come, you know?

I find it so troubling when I'm called names like in this thread for talking about women's issues, and it's a real sign of male oppression of women. I'm just supposed to accept my role in life, and I'm not supposed to question my male overlords, and I certainly shouldn't fight or try to tell a man he's wrong. Look at what happens to me when I do.

My cousin shared something with me years ago and I found it really an intriguing thought, how you see so many men terrified of women become equals, because they're afraid when women have power they'll treat men how men have always treated women.

 

[Farm Boy]

I just see that as growing pains.

Small point of focus - a growing pain is an awkward discomfort that passes as a phase. Freedom and ability to be a donkeysphincter is empowerment, which is actually the goal* and not a phase. Learning to disregard what is not as it purports to be is the growing pain, individual and awkward.

*I mean, it literally is, right? And that's a goodness.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Exception:

Consider a society in which "only being an officer provides the experience necessary to lead" is a widely held standard. The officer ranks consist of promoted conscripts and those who enter the officer corps directly by choice, but with an all male conscript force the military does effectively become a 'boys club' and that will extend through the officer corps whether it is specifically ruled as such or not. If the only path to leadership roles is a path made basically inaccessible to women then that is discriminatory against them, even though the conscription itself seems to favor them.

How commonly are conscripted soldiers promoted to officers?

Obviously if you make up new rules in addition to the conscription you can get different results, same if you gave all conscripts 1,000,000 USD but didn't conscript women. I'm talking about real scenarios though, and even in that case the discrimination is in the access to the money, not the "fight and maybe die" part.

Conscription seems harmful to both men and women. Men are forced into life threatening situations against their will, women deemed unworthy or unable to carry out the difficult job. I don't see why it has to be one or the other.

The latter is not relevant to conscription. If a woman signs up for military service and is rejected, you can make a case for discrimination depending on the reason. However, not forcing someone to do something against their will is not discriminating against them!

I feel your comment here really is what explains everything, and if you're willing to listen then you can grow. I understand how you feel threatened, but frankly you don't seem to have any clue what's going on for women's issues

Your argumentative position has utilized functionally identical anecdotes. If what you're quoting is out of bounds, the positions you've asserted to this point similarly lack credibility.

Anecdotes are not useful for broad discussion so it's reasonable to reject both.

You say you feel the worst behavior you've ever seen is from young women .. which means you're not at all familiar with what men do to women, like domestic slavery, abuse, rape, murder

Women do these things to men, too. They receive consistently lighter sentences when convicted for doing it, too. It is much more common for men to rape women than the reverse, and much more common for men to be in domestic slavery than the reverse. In terms of domestic violence, a larger % of domestic violence without retaliation is against men, not by men.

In terms of overall violence, a quick look at government-complied crime data should soundly refute that men are unfamiliar with being victims of violence, so no telling someone his sex isn't familiar with violence is disingenuous and disrespectful.

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv16re.pdf

My suggestion is to stop thinking only of your issues, and listen to people who are suffering from oppression you're benefiting from. You don't even have to realize what you're doing, or actively be assaulting anyone to be supporting sexist systems. But especially when you're denying women as a group are far worse off then men, you're harming us and you're actively contributing.

No thanks to non-logic.

It's why men need to stop talking and listen.

Start presenting facts/coherent logic and people will listen.

Wow, you aren't kidding. I thought I was just offering some limited evidence that women can be sexist and men can be discriminated against.

There are some concrete, non-anecdotal statistics in the link above. That's not all of course, if you want to get into family court outcomes, sentencing gap for criminal convictions, or even hiring practices in some cases those are also available.

When you're in a position of power over people, and if those people become equal to you then you lose your power, so I feel it's natural to be afraid, just that it's also frightening and disturbing.

Be specific: what power does riddleofsteel have that you don't have? What can he do that you can't, legally/in practice? Or the vast majority of people for that matter?

I find it so troubling when I'm called names like in this thread for talking about women's issues, and it's a real sign of male oppression of women. I'm just supposed to accept my role in life, and I'm not supposed to question my male overlords, and I certainly shouldn't fight or try to tell a man he's wrong. Look at what happens to me when I do.

Calling what you post misandry is not calling you names. However, you have engaged in open misandry on this thread, multiple times.

Feminists are not secret female supremacists.

It's true that it's not a secret.

 

[red_elk]

Small point of focus - a growing pain is an awkward discomfort that passes as a phase. Freedom and ability to be a donkeysphincter is empowerment, which is actually the goal* and not a phase. Learning to disregard what is not as it purports to be is the growing pain, individual and awkward.

Reading and trying to understand Farm Boy's posts is a growing pain and awkward discomfort that never passes

 

[ulyssesSgrant]

I find it so troubling when I'm called names like in this thread for talking about women's issues, and it's a real sign of male oppression of women. I'm just supposed to accept my role in life, and I'm not supposed to question my male overlords, and I certainly shouldn't fight or try to tell a man he's wrong. Look at what happens to me when I do.

I really do appreciate your contributions on this thread. I'm sure it's not easy, and you do get a lot of unfair criticism for sure. It does take courage to share your opinion in a male-dominated space like this.

I'm not going to parse and respond to everything you say that I disagree with, but I think I you should know that you have said several things on here that I believe are either untrue, or just insensitive and toxic, and I have not seen you take any responsibility for them. I don't want you to stop talking about women's issues, I really don't, but I think it would help your cause if you avoided accusations and imperatives directed at men in general. You will always get met with push back when you do that - not all men are the same.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

How commonly are conscripted soldiers promoted to officers?

All the time. Where do you think the non-commissioned officers in a conscript army come from?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

All the time. Where do you think the non-commissioned officers in a conscript army come from?

I was more asking for a gist of how many were voluntary vs conscripts.

You'd expect very different results between USA and either Korea for example. Many countries force some degree of service on all capable young adults, and it would be strange if that didn't influence this.

 

[rah]

That's it for me in Colosseum, folks.

And another person get's bullied from the OT.
Another victory for free speech.

 

[ulyssesSgrant]

The latter is not relevant to conscription. If a woman signs up for military service and is rejected, you can make a case for discrimination depending on the reason. However, not forcing someone to do something against their will is not discriminating against them!

Why not? They are being treated differently because of their sex, how could that not be discrimination?

And another person get's bullied from the OT.
Another victory for free speech.

This is an environment of welcoming, and if you don't agree, well then you can get the hell out of here.

 

[Senethro]

It's true that it's not a secret.

You give logic a bad name. You try to be all debate referee and rule other posts as being offside or something, but only the ones you disagree with. Furthermore you don't offer an alternative explanation for the experience of women in our societies, you just voice your own denial and refuse discussion and so implicitly claim some kind of unvoiced centrist position.

It is extra dishonest because if you believe in secret female supremacists then you are in fact a radical reactionary with no legitimate claim to the status quo or the centre/moderatism.

Its basically an extra wordy version of what Manfred does. He says "You are wrong, but I choose not to explain the manner in which you are wrong, because that might involve explicitly stating a position that could then be criticized."

 

[Senethro]

And another person get's bullied from the OT.
Another victory for free speech.

He is free to speak. If his speech about female supremacists was immune from criticism, that would make it protected speech. But to do that you would have to remove other peoples free speech.

Do you want protected speech for nutcases who believe in female supremacists? Do you really look at his actual position and think a reasonable person has been scared off?

 

[yung.carl.jung]

I have no political stance at all

yeah, right. very convincing. you have no political stance at all, then go on a tirade about this highly politicized topic.

Neglecting to vote doesn't really absolve you of having political positions. Unless you live as a hermit in the woods, you hold political beliefs that relate to or oppose your peers.

hermitdom and self-sustainability are inherently political positions

thoreau taught us as much

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I was more asking for a gist of how many were voluntary vs conscripts.

I'm thinking you were more trying to discount something that couldn't be packed into your position.

The "military as path to leadership" is absolutely a real thing in the US, right now. Lack of military service is a clear handicap to a political career. It was also an even more real thing in post WWII US, where "what, you didn't serve, screw you" was a socially accepted norm, despite the fact that the US army in WWII was made up of those who joined willingly and those who said no and got conscripted. Once they were in they were treated pretty much equally, and they were equally rewarded when they got out. And those rewards were not available to women, en masse, because it was 'obvious at a glance' that they didn't serve. That glance generally was enough to set aside even the few women who did serve.

Then there's the "fighting and dying" bit. Okay, that cuts against the conscripted, so if the conscripted are men only it cuts against men. Do you have any idea how little fighting and dying the military actually does? A huge segment of the military has no conceivable purpose in the front lines of a war...and that's if there is a war. The military is 99% a deterrent to fighting, not an actual fighting force.

 

[Farm Boy]

He is free to speak. If his speech about female supremacists was immune from criticism, that would make it protected speech. But to do that you would have to remove other peoples free speech.

Do you want protected speech for nutcases who believe in female supremacists? Do you really look at his actual position and think a reasonable person has been scared off?

Take it as a literal victory. Freedom and empowerment very much encompasses being such an unpleasant asshat as to be worth not conversing with. It's literally what we're aiming for, intentionally, if we're combating a system of enforced niceness, right? Of choosing ones company to keep? Lots of stuff.

Doesn't mean all actions enabled are goodnesses, merely that they're allowed. So I wouldn't dig too much "ought" into that last paragraph.

 

[rah]

He is free to speak. If his speech about female supremacists was immune from criticism, that would make it protected speech.

Do you want protected speech for nutcases who believe in female supremacists? Do you really look at his actual position and think a reasonable person has been scared off?

There is a difference between a reasonable discussion and bullying. Your post just described him as a non reasonable person probably because you didn't agree with him. Hmmmmmm.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

This is an environment of welcoming

Well, no, it actually isn't. Never has been. Is there a good reason that it should be? If I show up at your house and crap on the carpet is there some 'societal restriction' that says you are required to make me welcome?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

There is a difference between a reasonable discussion and bullying. Your post just described him as a non reasonable person probably because you didn't agree with him. Hmmmmmm.

How sure are you about that 'probably'?

 

[Farm Boy]

The conversation would probably be better if it was less cruel, yes. But hey, that's some people's jimmies, I suppose.