My Problem With Faith

Ok, to avoid misunderstandings, I'm agnostic but epsitemologically liberal ;)

1. Instead of proof, I'd like to use word "evidence". Proof suggests that it forces you to accept the conclusion. However there is no this kind of evidence. The closest you can get is mathematics. Natural sciences and such things work only on evidence, which suggests that some theory is approximately true. This is clear from two facts: i) natural sciences are inductive, and ii) natural sciences have proved out to been erroneous.

Generally we don't require proof in oder to believe in somehting, evidence is good enough, and often we don't require even that.

2. There's evidence for everyone, and evidence for singular person. If you want others to believe something, you must provide evidence they have access. However you don't have to be able to convince others to be justified in your belief on something.

For example I have a coffee cup in front of me right now. I can't give any evidence for this thing. And even if you came here to look for yourself, I could have put the cup there later to fool you. There is no way I can give any evidence for the coffee cup's location when I'm writing this, but yet I am justified to believe it's on my table.

I believe this is exactly what religion is about: religious people have some sort of personal evidence, good or bad, and they ahve every reason and right to believe because of it. They can't communicate that evidence to others, but it doesn't mean it were not valid for them.

I recently noticed that it's difficult for people to think that someone might have an opinion without thinking it should be others opinion too: for example if someone doesn't eat meat, people often tacitly assume that he thinks no one else should eat meat either.

Even if you wouldn't think this way, there might be some remains of that sort of thinking in your argument: that you assume that evidence for religion should be evidence for everyone. And also the tradition of religious conversation supports that kind of view: religious people who wanted others to believe have used only arguments that they think should persuade others, but not stated the reasons they themselves believe.

The point of this whole thing is:If someone on street requires you to believe in God, it's ridiculous, for the exact reasons you stated in the OP. But if someone by his own believes in God, same kind of reasoning doesn't apply, since he doesn't require you to believe. He may have other reasons to believe than faith alone.

3. The idea of first principle is simplistic. People don't form their views from first principles. They rather have views, on which they base other views, and sometimes they re-evaluate some of them. These views don't form simple chains or "trees", and they aren't well thought out.

In the case of religion, I suppose, people haven't first read the bible and then decided to believe in God, or first believed, and then read the bible. Instead the bible and their personal experiences support each others, little like when you're building a card hous, and place two cards leaning against each others: /\.

Tyipcal western christian, I suppose, has been exposed to the stories of bible fron his very childhood. He might have never read or thought it much. Maybe he's got somekind of feeling about it. Then he might have some sort of experience that pushes him towards the bible at age of 18, and read it a little bit, forget about it, and read it again when he's 23, and see the whole thing in a new light. Then he might forget it again for some years, and have some bigger religious experience that makes him certain of the thing.

This is how people form their opinions on just about everything: no part is fundamental, instead different parts rely on each others. My belief on the coffee cup on the table relies on the reliability of my sense perception, but it's the actual sense perception on which I base the assumption of that reliability.

I believe this applies foe science too, although I must admit that I can't (at least here) give any comprehensive evidence for that. Mainly, you can check for the definitions of different measurment units, and notice that many of them incorporate some kind of scientific theory. Or you can think about different experiments or equipment used to perform them, and how they rely on scientific theories.
 
You don't, that is why it is called faith. The question you raise is about knowledge and what are the acceptable sources of knowledge. If i say that the only true source of knowledge is the bible, then that will direct my life down a certain path. If i say science is the only path to truth, then i will journey a different way. Other choices will take you other places. As we answer fundamental questions, we direct our lives down particular paths. it takes the unexpected to set things ajar and introduce change. For early Christians it was Jesus and his teachings that pushed their lives into a new direction. In the 19th C Charles Darwin made god fearing men rethink how they saw the world and their place in it. Your answers to the basic questions about knowledge and the roles of reason and experience will shape your whole outlook on life. If we answer those questions differently, we will have a hard time agreeing on the more mundane questions.
So one simply says: I don't care what the most logical and likely case is, but choose to believe (for whatever reasons) that the not logical and less likely is the case.

I admit, this sounds a little like "You are a fool!" but actually that are just the facts and if someone religious accepts that and still chooses to have faith I respect it.

My issue always has been that if I personal know religious people I know how to not offend them but if I ever were really honest I would because I am convinced their faith is a fairy tale and am not able to really respect their believes with my heart. But if one recognizes the fact that his faith is on a logical level very unlikely I am suddenly not troubled with disrespect anymore.

I have to think about this... :hmm:
 
No you miss the point. Regardless of what one says they believe, faith is rooted an experience that you assign to something you do not fully grasp. The affiliation with books or words or goats comes after the faith is established.

Actually it comes before. You first have the experience that you assign to the divine that you have no proof of being divine. This is the leap of faith. This is where you go "I don't have proof that this is divine, but it feels right, so I'm going to choose to believe that it is divine"*, and then proceed with your faith. My issue is that you have faith in a non-divine thing before you can "touch" the divine.

* obviously it doesn't go exactly like that, there are numerous contributing factors, but my point still stands

BTW, since you are a person without faith, how would you come to the conclusion that you know anything at all about it? It seems logical to me that your lack of it makes you among the least qualified to talk about it. :p

I am a person without the belief that 2+2=5 and similarly, I will never be able to actually believe that 2+2=5. Does that mean that I am unqualified to talk anything about that belief?

(this is an example, I don't mean to say that religious faith is as clear-cut wrong as a belief in 2+2=5)

Ok, to avoid misunderstandings, I'm agnostic but epsitemologically liberal ;)

1. Instead of proof, I'd like to use word "evidence". Proof suggests that it forces you to accept the conclusion. However there is no this kind of evidence. The closest you can get is mathematics. Natural sciences and such things work only on evidence, which suggests that some theory is approximately true. This is clear from two facts: i) natural sciences are inductive, and ii) natural sciences have proved out to been erroneous.

Generally we don't require proof in oder to believe in somehting, evidence is good enough, and often we don't require even that.

Agreed, and this is just a small bit of semantics IMO.

2. There's evidence for everyone, and evidence for singular person. If you want others to believe something, you must provide evidence they have access. However you don't have to be able to convince others to be justified in your belief on something.

For example I have a coffee cup in front of me right now. I can't give any evidence for this thing. And even if you came here to look for yourself, I could have put the cup there later to fool you. There is no way I can give any evidence for the coffee cup's location when I'm writing this, but yet I am justified to believe it's on my table.

I believe this is exactly what religion is about: religious people have some sort of personal evidence, good or bad, and they ahve every reason and right to believe because of it. They can't communicate that evidence to others, but it doesn't mean it were not valid for them.

I see what you're getting at. But there is a difference.

If you tell me that you have a coffee cup in front of you, I might believe you even though you are a stranger on the Internet. Why? It is of no consequence to me if I'm wrong. So you tricked me and there isn't a cup in front of you, big deal.

If you tell me that I won't get sick if I drink a bunch of mouthwash, I won't believe you because the evidence showing that you are right is weak: you're just a stranger on the Internet. If a close friend tells me that, I would be inclined to believe him because there's evidence of his being right in the past which suggests he would be right again. (PS to all: drinking mouthwash *will* make you sick)

If you tell me that my eternal soul is on the line and is dependent on believing in the correct religion or God, then it will take a lot to convince me, a lot of evidence to make me believe any of those religions. Why? If I get it wrong, I'm screwed. Eternally. So those experiences that I have no proof of being divine, are they worth risking my eternal soul over?

It's not really analogous in that sense.

I recently noticed that it's difficult for people to think that someone might have an opinion without thinking it should be others opinion too: for example if someone doesn't eat meat, people often tacitly assume that he thinks no one else should eat meat either.

Even if you wouldn't think this way, there might be some remains of that sort of thinking in your argument: that you assume that evidence for religion should be evidence for everyone. And also the tradition of religious conversation supports that kind of view: religious people who wanted others to believe have used only arguments that they think should persuade others, but not stated the reasons they themselves believe.

The point of this whole thing is:If someone on street requires you to believe in God, it's ridiculous, for the exact reasons you stated in the OP. But if someone by his own believes in God, same kind of reasoning doesn't apply, since he doesn't require you to believe. He may have other reasons to believe than faith alone.

But ultimately a leap of faith is required to reach the divine. You have a religious experience or reason X, there is no proof that it is divine and not delusional or incorrect. The leap of faith helps you decide that it is divine. Someone by his own could very well believe in God because of faith in divinity, but when you get down to it, the initial leap of faith was over something of which there's no proof of its divinity.

3. The idea of first principle is simplistic. People don't form their views from first principles. They rather have views, on which they base other views, and sometimes they re-evaluate some of them. These views don't form simple chains or "trees", and they aren't well thought out.

In the case of religion, I suppose, people haven't first read the bible and then decided to believe in God, or first believed, and then read the bible. Instead the bible and their personal experiences support each others, little like when you're building a card hous, and place two cards leaning against each others: /\.

Tyipcal western christian, I suppose, has been exposed to the stories of bible fron his very childhood. He might have never read or thought it much. Maybe he's got somekind of feeling about it. Then he might have some sort of experience that pushes him towards the bible at age of 18, and read it a little bit, forget about it, and read it again when he's 23, and see the whole thing in a new light. Then he might forget it again for some years, and have some bigger religious experience that makes him certain of the thing.

This is how people form their opinions on just about everything: no part is fundamental, instead different parts rely on each others. My belief on the coffee cup on the table relies on the reliability of my sense perception, but it's the actual sense perception on which I base the assumption of that reliability.

I believe this applies foe science too, although I must admit that I can't (at least here) give any comprehensive evidence for that. Mainly, you can check for the definitions of different measurment units, and notice that many of them incorporate some kind of scientific theory. Or you can think about different experiments or equipment used to perform them, and how they rely on scientific theories.

Each of these parts is some kind of leap of faith. Sure, there's no fundamental one first principle. But the principle (excuse the wording) is still there: these beliefs are based on certain things, of which there's no evidence for their divinity.

It seems that, by your definition of faith, I am not sure I have faith.

I don't use your defintion.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree.

Why did you start believing in God when you did? When did you say "it is true indeed, God exists and it is the Christian God"? Why do you believe in God now? Tell me your reasoning and personal proof of God's existence. (Don't, but imagine it)

These reasons and experiences have no proof of being associated with divinity. Once you took that leap of faith that they were correct or divinely inspired, then the rest of your religious beliefs followed. But you needed that initial leap of faith to decide that the near-death experience (making this up) that you inexplicably survived, of which there's no proof that it is divinely inspired, is proof of God; or what have you.

Similarly, if I take the initial leap of faith that the "Book of Pixie" is true or that me not finding objects in my room is proof of invisible pixies flying around, then the rest of my worldview on this matter then follows: it then makes sense that there are invisible pixies flying around everywhere interfering with our lives. (Don't mean to offend or liken your religious beliefs to belief in pixies, but I'm just using it to make a point)

This is what I mean by faith, and this is my problem with it. The fundamental reasons behind your belief in God, even though they are accumulating, are ultimately things of which you have no proof to be divinely inspired, until you assume (leap of faith) them to be true/divinely inspired. The prayers going just right, the feeling of a divine presence beside you, etc, are sources of which you have no proof for being divine until you take the leap of faith that they are indeed divine and God exists, after which everything falls into place.

I hope I'm managing to sufficiently explain exactly what I mean here...
 
Faith is not mutually exclusive to logic and reasoning. Faith merely involves admitting that human is reasoning limited by human reasoning, and admitting that there are things one will never know nor understand.

/threadcontribution
 
Faith is not mutually exclusive to logic and reasoning. Faith merely involves admitting that human is reasoning limited by human reasoning, and admitting that there are things one will never know nor understand.

/threadcontribution

But then usually leads to people making pronouncements about knowledge anyway.
 
Faith is not mutually exclusive to logic and reasoning. Faith merely involves admitting that human is reasoning limited by human reasoning, and admitting that there are things one will never know nor understand.

/threadcontribution
That's weird, because I'm pretty sure that saying "there is a god" and "Jesus is lord" is not "admitting that there are things one will never know nor [sic] understand."
 
The first bolded part is an argument from ignorance. You do not know exactly what causes x so you posit y and call it God? One thing I have faith in is that human understanding will increase, and human understanding has continually elucidated natural reasons for puzzling things. Every time a gap in knowledge is filled, that God has less places to hide. If you keep God there and say that he causes these natural reasons, that is an unnecessary multiplication of entities engendered only by provincial thought.

Well, obviously a lot of it comes from the belief that we cannot know any absolute truth or everything in the world. So that's a fundamental point of divergence.

If we assume that all physical properties and happenings in the universe can be understood (which I don't think possible), then there is still a place for 'God'. What causes those physical properties to come to being? What makes these laws exist? Sure, you might be able to explain Law X's existence through Law Y, but that just means that the transference of ignorance has occurred from one law to another. What causes Law Y? Law Z? What causes Law Z? etc.

If you believe that there is an absolute truth, then the cycle must end somewhere, with what we may as well call 'God', due to our lack of understanding of such, the fundamental place of that 'God' within the universe, and what to me makes sense as our inability to ever know this absolute truth even if it exists.

And if you believe that there isn't an absolute truth, then of course some sort of 'God' exists to bridge the gaps of relativism and/or subjectivism.

In the second part I bolded, you stated that making God tangible allows people to understand on a more personal level, and seem to think that this tangibility applied to god is not essential to understanding.

But you offered no reasoning why "some force in the universe that control stuff" should or even can be understood on a "personal level". The laws of thermodynamics are not understood on a "personal level". The laws of motion are not understood on a "personal level". None of the laws or forces of the universe are understood on a "personal level". So how do you understand "that force which people believe exists" on a "personal level" without making it tangible and/or anthropomorphizing it?

I use the word 'force' for lack of a better one. This 'force' is incomparable to other physical laws. We can assume this due to the fact that laws exhibit behaviours which are understandable, and able to be narrowed down. But if this additional 'force' is something that we can never fully understand (and I think it is safe the assume the eternal existence of a lack of knowledge, despite as many epistemological pursuits as may be undertaken), then how can it be a law in the same sense? Additional faith comes from thinking this, I 'spose, but I would've thought it not too much of a stretch to think that there is some existential and psychologically altering force that engenders the human condition. This is something that understanding on a personal level would be quite beneficial to. Think of it less as gravity, so much as humanity.

That's weird, because I'm pretty sure that saying "there is a god" and "Jesus is lord" is not "admitting that there are things one will never know nor [sic] understand."

Well, the second one perhaps not, but I would say that saying 'there is a god' is synonymous with saying that there is no way of knowing everything, assuming you area applying the label of God being that 'force'. Now, I'm an adherent to 'Jesus is lord' also, but as the manifestation of that force, hence being derived from my faith, rather than the source of it. So, I need to believe certain aspects of the Bible and of course the Christian religion, but my faith isn't coming from that, so much as that is a way of representing my faith. If that makes sense.

I hope you can decipher my ramblings.
 
That's weird, because I'm pretty sure that saying "there is a god" and "Jesus is lord" is not "admitting that there are things one will never know nor [sic] understand."
:D Very good one.
Well, the second one perhaps not, but I would say that saying 'there is a god' is synonymous with saying that there is no way of knowing everything
Absolutely not. Alright lets screw all the fancy stuff around it and be limited to the essence.
"There is a supernatural power which deliberately controls the universe" means "some things will remain uncertain"?
Really, no. It does not rule out that it is that way, yes. But neither does it conclude so.
I show you what quote would work: "Mankind will never know if there is a God or not"
 
I've already conducted a poll a while back showing that somewhere around or above 90% of religious people believe faith is necessary for their religious views. You need faith for your religion.
I'm sorry, of all the things in your post...I really can't see how you could write this and not see what's wrong with this.

First, you conducted a poll here I assume. This is first of all worth roughly nothing in the field of statistics, as a poll conducted amongst CFC member is the most unscientific poll imaginable.
Second of all even IF you conducted a poll following proper methodology, and got the same result, that wouldn't mean anything. If I conducted a poll and found that 90% of people believe Faith is necessary for Logic, Science, History, Reading, Catching the Train in the Morning, winning in TF2, and enjoying chocolate, this would still be not true, or at least, you would still have no reasonable evidence that it is true.
In fact, there are many religious belief systems not rooted in faith.
 
Absolutely not. Alright lets screw all the fancy stuff around it and be limited to the essence.
"There is a supernatural power which deliberately

Who said anything about 'deliberate', as such?

controls the universe" means "some things will remain uncertain"?
Really, no. It does not rule out that it is that way, yes. But neither does it conclude so.
I show you what quote would work: "Mankind will never know if there is a God or not"

If you take God as being the explanation for that which we do not and can not understand (whatever that explanation may be), then saying 'I believe there is a God' is perfectly interchangeable with 'I believe we do not and can not know or understand everything'. Both are saying the same things, taking that definition of 'God'.
 
Not sure its an exact answer to the op, but here goes:

There is a prime element that underlies the creation and span of all things. Some call it science, I call it God. That does not mean that I disbelieve science, its just that I believe in something greater than science and that can operate beyond the finite limitations of our own human imagination.

I think we as humans have too much regard for our own ability to understand things: although science is the best system of describing and classifying modernity has produced, there will always be that which we cannot discover or describe.

Thus, I accept the possibility of God as that which we cannot describe.
 
although science is the best system of describing and classifying modernity has produced, there will always be that which we cannot discover or describe.

Thus, I accept the possibility of God as that which we cannot describe.

But why? That which we can't discover or describe could be *anything*.

Why pick God? I mean, I understand certain reasons for believing that God exists, and I accept them as rational, but going from "Science can't answer all of my questionss" to "That void must obviously be filled by a super-powerful entity which created the Universe" seems like a huge random leap to me.
 
I'd say that some leaps are made because of pushes. Whether or not He exists, I imagine God can push pretty hard. If you've ever taken psychedelic drugs, you know that "religious experience" is something indescribable in words, even beyond thoughts and feelings, not just hippie babble. Rational people often have no taste for ineffable things: they believe that everything is chemistry, that logic prevails; that everything can in the end be dissected and labeled. Explained in language, even if that language hasn't yet been discovered itself. Some people, i.e. the religious, believe there are no tools for everything, no map to everywhere; that even (traditional) logic can be short-circuited, so to speak. (Not to say that it is useless, but that it cannot be used for everything.) That is the problem. No way of communicating in any effective and truthful way the essence of the experience. Even if such a way could be invented (which I believe it can't), it wouldn't be the same experience for different people.

There is a fundamental gap between people who call the same thing 'delusion' or 'revelation'. Most of the time it can only be bridged by direct personal experience; and I do not mean abandoning or adopting faith, but being able to at least see things, if not think/( ) about things from the other 'side's' pov. (I am a romantic and hover in the middle. Maybe someday I'll meet Sagan's ghost and he'll tell me science is right... ;))

I admit that I sometimes get mad about the more ridiculous aspects of some religions... But I'm mostly opposed to organized religion and proselytizing; as long as everyone keeps their more extreme beliefs to themselves - in deeds not in words - I'm ok with them.
 
There's just far better reasons to believe in God than: "I don't quite understand how the world works *shrug*"
While it is true that some people "believe" from sheer ignorance/insecurity, I don't think that's true for all or even a majority. And at any rate such fears cannot be really called faith in a meaningful sense.

I already said above that true belief does not follow the common ways of reasoning. Trying to eff the ineffable is the challenge here. Religious experience = understanding how the world works, for a while and in a way that cannot be described then or later, anyway. One-ness with the Universe, seeing the face of God, etc; different names for the same thing, all inadequate. As long as there is no common language, the debate is useless imo.

For the record, I personally haven't had such an experience, but I've read enough about them to believe it is possible, whether you call it divine revelation or "brain soup deluxe". I mean so strong an experience that you cannot be true to yourself anymore if you refuse to change your life because of it.
 
While it is true that some people "believe" from sheer ignorance/insecurity, I don't think that's true for all or even a majority. And at any rate such fears cannot be really called faith in a meaningful sense.

I'm not implying anything about anyone, majority or not - I'm just addressing something in particular that was said in the thread.
 
I'm not implying anything about anyone, majority or not - I'm just addressing something in particular that was said in the thread.
But you should imply it. It is stupid and cowardly, imo, to make this kind of leap in logic: "I believe we cannot ever understand some things about the Universe" -> "There must be a God to fill in those gaps" without having a religious experience; i.e. direct personal proof of God. And even then it should be a revelatory experience, even if we indeed cannot understand everything in the end (as humans that is).

Edit: I get that you were talking to Margim and not attacking religious people in general. My points stand regardless.
 
But you should imply it. It is stupid and cowardly, imo, to make this kind of leap in logic: "I believe we cannot ever understand some things about the Universe" -> "There must be a God to fill in those gaps" without having a religious experience; i.e. direct personal proof of God. And even then it should be a revelatory experience, even if we indeed cannot understand everything in the end.

In the end it's a personal thing and not up for me to decide: I'm not going to tell anyone why they shouldn't believe what they believe. I might argue with them about their beliefs, but I'm never gonna say: "No dude, you can't believe in God, you haven't seen a burning bush, you're coming with me to the crazy party where crap's going down"

Call people stupid and cowardly if you want, but that's totally not what I'm doing here.
 
Actually it comes before. You first have the experience that you assign to the divine that you have no proof of being divine. This is the leap of faith.

Yeah. That experience might be brought to you by demons :mischief:.
 
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