Mysticism and the early religious techs

[salty mud]

I always struggle with these techs. I never know whether to research them nice and early or trade for them once I get alphabet. They don't allow any new worker improvements so are fairly useless in that regard, but you need this line of tech to get to the extremely important monarchy tech so you can adopt hereditary rule, letting you grow your cities larger sizes. Is there a rule one should follow to have monarchy by? Is it ever worth researching mysticism and founding an early religion to get to monarchy quicker?

 

[Lexicus]

I don't consider monarchy/HR to be all that important, honestly. I generally focus much more on the CS line of techs for Bureaucracy, along with Machinery for maces/xbows.

It's usually best to trade for the religious techs after getting alpha. The exception might be if you really, really need an early monument somewhere.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Monarchy is also a tech the AIs prioritise and one you can easily trade for so agree with Lexicus it's not one you should aim for.

 

[lymond]

Yeah, HR is not that critical early. Eventually you do want a happy boost from HR or Rep (if you can build mids), but I would not go out of my way for it whey you easily trade for it.

Yes, it is well known now not to focus on religious techs and early religions - at least for optimal play. On higher levels it is usually a waste or practically impossible to get them anyway. If you are just playing for fun, do whatever you want, but if you want to get better focus on worker techs>alpha (or alpha trade bait like Aesths).

Teching just Myst though is sometimes needed if border pops are critical - like that fish way out at sea - when a Library would take considerably longer to get up. Otherwise, try to settle with food or important resources in the first ring.

 

[bdubbs]

The reasons I would self tech mysticism in a game are oracle gambits, or a need for monuments. Trying to think about it I would say its more often than not I self tech mysticism because I usually need those border pops way sooner than alpha, and any size 2 city can 1 pop whip a monument easily.

 

[ConfusedCounsel]

Is it ever worth researching mysticism and founding an early religion to get to monarchy quicker?

No. Not unless you have like 4 wine tiles in your capital BFC and another 2 close by or something like that.
HR is useful, but no milestone tech like CS, Currency, HBR or construction etc..

In general the best reason to go the mysticism line is to priesthood for the Oracle.
The next best reason is the need for monuments.

The very last reason is to find an early religion. This is hardly ever worth it, especially on higher difficulties where it can often be detrimental, but there are some somewhat cheesy or weird cornercases in which it might prove a good move. I mention it here, but really it occurs so seldom that you might be better of ignoring it for now.
I'm tempted to make an analogy to bloodletting. Bloodletting was a very detrimental medical practice that was performed for centuries. It was badly used in 99% of the cases. As a heuristic, don't bloodlet is probably a solid one. However, there still are some diseases in which bloodletting is part of a modern scientific medical cure.
Founding your own Hindu/Buddhism is kinda like that. Generally founding one of them is a 'sub-optimal play', and just as I would advice a medieval physician to not ever blood-let again, so would I advise a player wishing to improve to not found early again.

So research them if you go Oracle, research mysticism if you are in need of monuments, otherwise don't bother and trade for them.

 

[DrCron]

Monarchy is also a tech the AIs prioritise and one you can easily trade for

Basically this. HR will be cheap very soon, so you should be able to trade for it if you do something like Aesthetics-Literature-Musc (for a free GA the gets you an early golden age), because the AI never follows that line and you can trade a lot with it (also, being first to Literature is good for GL).

 

[Lexicus]

I plumb forgot about the wonders unlocked by religious techs. Truth is I've been more or less ignoring wonders in my recent games. The only wonder I actually care about getting these days is the Kremlin.

 

[gaash2]

I always struggle with these techs. I never know whether to research them nice and early or trade for them once I get alphabet. They don't allow any new worker improvements so are fairly useless in that regard, but you need this line of tech to get to the extremely important monarchy tech so you can adopt hereditary rule, letting you grow your cities larger sizes. Is there a rule one should follow to have monarchy by? Is it ever worth researching mysticism and founding an early religion to get to monarchy quicker?

If I go for the oracle I self tech them.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Monarchy can be ok for something like a FIN nation that spawns isolated, normally you don't rush it but do trade for it and swap it alongside another civic switch.

 

[Powerfaker]

With tech trading disabled (in options menu or in AW-games) monarchy does get a certain urgency. Happy cap matters and HR+wine = +2 at least, with high flexibility. Then it competes for priority with math and currency I would say, or with calender.

 

[MegaLurker]

Mysticism is so cheap that in some cases it's worth researching so you can settle a much better long-term city and still get a vital resource fast enough. Usually bronze or horses because any other strategic resources come after you can trade for Myst or get free culture from religion spread. But it can rarely be worth it for, say, an early gold or gems tile that otherwise provides a worthless 3x3. Partly because working one of those tiles will get you Mysticism so quickly in the first place.

 

[odin1981]

I like the route after the required worker improvements if I have stone/marble for Oracle/mids. I prefer to go myst-poly-priest then research mono and trade for meditation and end there. Oracle grabs code for 4th religion (first three ai grabs) and scientist is easy to grab philo. Theology is the 2nd prophet bulb. First priority for initial prophet is religion building.

Religion is great if you get it in a cottage town. Go organized and Lib and Market for + modifiers. I prefer to make 3 gp farms in games A strictly science farm, a prophet/merchant one, and a engineer/spy farm (forge, mids, hanging, GW).

I find the religion, merchant one to be the best combo often due to cash when you need it (axe to mace to face, horse archers to cuirs, chariots to Knights (non medic great general). Also myst only isn't bad if you are boxed in by creative civs.

 

[cseanny]

Is it ever worth researching mysticism and founding an early religion to get to monarchy quicker?

Almost always NO.

I'd suggest more emphasis on short term city placement (don't need border pops), tile sharing, and finally, whip, whip, and whip.

 

[Lazteuq]

I think the Writing->Math->Currency/Calendar is more important. You will already want math for currency. In most situations, you will have several of the calendar resources. Each one of these effectively acts as another HR military unit in each city, without the unit upkeep costs! So I consider calendar a better goal for early happiness. unless you dont have any of those special resources.

 

[Izuul]

Calendar is usually an early AI target though and is relatively easy to trade for. I'm usually hesitant to self-tech that unless the situation really dictates it or the circumstances look favorable for MoM. Sometimes you can even pre-build most of the MoM by storing chops and then build it in 1-2T if an AI makes it available for trade before MoM is completed elsewhere.

 

[Lazteuq]

Yeah, I see what you mean, selfteching currency and trading for calendar is probably best. Sometimes I don't research monarchy until medieval, when it is relatively cheap and I only need it as a prerequisite.

I suppose calendar becomes less valuable on a small map because you have a lower chance of having many of those resources.

 

[pigswill]

Going alph/math>currency also opens up CoL without religious techs, fairly standard if you're heading for early CS.

 

[odin1981]

The one possibility that most aren't mentioning why it can be worthwhile if you have a industrious leader you can at least up till monarch cause I have done it is slingshot both oracle for metal casing while saving up preferable oracle and stonehedge wonders to get a double prophet and then after poly, mono, and priesthood assuming you went meditation for oracle and then hold the first guy till the second comes and double bulb back to back for theology and col.

 

[ConfusedCounsel]

The one possibility that most aren't mentioning why it can be worthwhile if you have a industrious leader you can at least up till monarch cause I have done it is slingshot both oracle for metal casing while saving up preferable oracle and stonehedge wonders to get a double prophet and then after poly, mono, and priesthood assuming you went meditation for oracle and then hold the first guy till the second comes and double bulb back to back for theology and col.

At monarch you can slingslot with Oracle CS with a gold/gems start...

In general though, those GP could have been Gscientist and you could have bulbed philo and gotten a caste system/philosophy golden age either with a random Great Priest or the artist from Music.

Bulbing theology and col is kinda inefficient, especially at lower difficulty.