Myth01- Training Day- Regent

[Aabraxan]

. . . . *Wonders started are not important, due I only build them IF I need and can or if I get SGL. . . . .

Whether you're building the Great Wonders or not, the "wonders started" messages tell you where the other civs are in the tech tree. This is important because you can't always tell from the trade screen what they've got. For example, in the middle ages, I frequently research the bottom half of the tech tree an leave the top alone. All the culture is at the top; all the military goodies are at the bottom. If I go into diplomacy, I frequently can't see if the AI has anything beyond Education. But if I get a popup that says someone has started Copernicus' Observatory, I know they've gotten to Astronomy.

I have had this kinda phenomen before too, but do barbs spawn and make 'great uprising' from several camps or is great uprising just from one camp?

I think it's usually only one camp. In my Unluckiest Lucky Start game, I had two fairly large and simultaneous uprisings, but that's the only game that I can think of in which I've had two. Perhaps only one of them was the Change of Age uprising? (I'm not sure about this.)

 

[vmxa]

Mapstat is a good tool, I used it fro a long time. You can get many camps with up to 16 barbs during an uprising. You tend to ot notice as the camps are usually not close enough to be an immediate problem.

 

[CommandoBob]

[Preflight]:
Map Making in 5
77 gold, +12 gpt
Republic
70% tax
30% science
0% luxury

City Builds:
Beijing (3): vSword in 5, grows in 2.
Ex-Slavery (3): worker in 7, grows in 2.
Shanghai (4): vHorse in 2, grows in 4.
Watery (1): barracks in 6, grows in 16.
Canton (4): settler in 5, grows in 1.
Nanking (3): vHorse in 5, grows in 2.
Bangalore (3) settler in 13, grows in 1.
Tsingtao (4): vHorse in 4, grows in 16.
Tatung (3): settler in 7, grows in 2.
Irony (4): vSword in 4, grows in 11.
Hangchow (3): granary in 17, grows in 5.
Xinjian (2): barracks in 19, grows in 4.
GrapeVille (4): courthouse in 25, grows in 2.
Macao (2): barracks in 4, grows in 4.
Anyany (3): vHorse in 11, grows in 2.
Mountain View (1): vHorse in 28, grows in 1.
Forestville (1): barracks in 19, grows in 7.
Spacious Meadows (1): worker in 4, grows in 1.
Sea (1): worker in 7, grows in 7.
Great View (1): worker in 1, grows in 7.
Barbarian Outpost I (1): worker in 9, grows in 3.

City Production;
vSword [2] (Beijing and Irony)
worker [5] (Ex-Slavery, Spacious Meadows, Sea, Great View and Barbarian Outpost I)
vHorse [5] (Shanghai, Nanking, Tsingtao, Anyang and Mountain View)
barracks [4] (Watery, Xinjian, Macao and Foresetville)
settler [3] (Canton, Bangalore and Tatung)
granary [1] (Hangchow)
courthouse [1] (Grapeville)

Military:
03 Settlers
12 Workers
01 Warrior
14 Archers
03 Spears
10 Swords
03 Horse
01 Curragh
Allowed Units: 47
Total Units: 21
Unit Support: 52 gpt


Resources connected to Beijing
01 Silks
01 Wines
01 Iron
01 Horse


Wonder Races
None


Long Term Goals
Conquer the world.

Mid Range Goals
Subdue our continent, which means killing Zulus.
Build more cities in Old India.

Short Range Goals
Deal with the Barbarians in the West.
Slowly move north towards Zulu.

[End of Preflight]
[IBT]
No IBT, game is already in 150 AD.


1 0150 AD

We have six barracks already. We don't need four more, especially far away from our front lines.
We have too many units protecting cities that can be fighting Zulus.
We don't need our core garrisoned with troops. They don't help any in Republic.

Forrestville barracks -> library in 79.
Watery barracks -> library in 36.
Xinjian barracks -> library in 79.
Hangchow granary -> library in 27. Not enough extra food.
Mountian View vHorse -> vSword in 28 (closer to the front),
Great View worker -> library in 70 (not big enough to build worker).
Canton settler -> vHorse (makes use of the barracks)

Workers chopping forest S of Nanking -> move W to bring water to Watery. This chop would only build a military unit. It could die. Better use would be for the chop to help build a city improvment or settler.
Wake work mining the Iron on the mountain near Hangchow. Will move to mine and road the grass SW of Hangchow that we are working right now. It is too early for Hangchow to work the mountian. Later it will, but the mountain does not let it grow.

Move vHorse protecting settler into Babarian Outpost I, to fend off the cHorse.

SettlerToVolcanoArea moves E across the river into Shanghai.
Unnamed settler near Ex-Slavery heads towards the cow on the coast. It needs protection to head further west or to the northwest coastline.

Wake up sleeping units in cities and send them towards Mountian View.

Increase science to 40%, Map Making in 4; -1 gpt.

Our cities need to grow past size 6 if they can; it will help with unit support.

Mountain View Area 150 AD

Our northern front is very quiet.
​

[IBT]
cHorse near Barbarian Outpost I dies attacking city.
Two more cHorses die attacking the eArcher in Sea. The other just shuffle around.

2 0170 AD

Move a VArcher into Bangalore. The worker he was protecting follow the road towards Ex-Slavery.
Unnamed settler builds ShoreLeave; worker in 10, grows in 5. Good place for a harbor, once we get smart enough.
SettlerToVolcanoArea heads to Watery, but I miskeyed off the road.
Warrior and Settler near Canton head towards the marshes.

In Mountain View we fortify a Spear, two Archers and a Sword.

No Zulu activity, so our Stack in the Forest will move North. Five Swords, a Spear, 2 Horses and 4 Archers.
​

[IBT]
Two more Barbarian Horses fall the eArcher at Sea.

Shanghai vHorse -> vHorse in 8.

3 0190 AD

New Horse in Shanghai heads West to help contain the barbarians.

We cross the Zulu border and spot Umtata (1).
​

[IBT]
Anyang is pillaged by Yayois. Partially trained Horse is destroyed.

Barbarian pillages road near Spacious Meadows.

Wonderful News

The Great Wall is built in Seville, Spain.

4 0210 AD

Drop science to 10%; learn Map Making in 1, +49 gpt.

Battle of Umtata (1)
vArcher vs. rImpi, Archer wins and promotes to Elite (1 of 1).
vSword vs. rImpi, Sword wins (2 of 2).

Good News

Umtata is destroyed. We gain a slave. We send it south towards safety.
The Spear stays with the vArcher that fought and won.
​

[IBT]
Two more cHorses die out west.

We learn Map Making and enter into a new Age.
We begin to learn Engineering (build bridges over water), 50 turns at 10%.

Beijing vSword -> vSword in 4.
Ex-Slavery worker -> worker in 10.
Canton vHorse -> vSpear in 4.
Tsingtao vHorse -> vHorse in 8.
Irony vSword -> vSword in 4.
Macao barracks -> vSpear in 7.
Spacious Meadows worker -> libarary in 80.

5 0230 AD

Desert Marsh is built NW of Barbarian Outpost I; grows in 10, worker in 10.
The Horse that helped protect the warrior and settler sees a wounded eWarrior of Zulu.

Minor Skirmish
vHorse vs. eWarrior 3/5, Horse wins and promotes to Elite (3 of 3).

Pink Clover sails east into the great beyond.

Up north, our redlined Sword moves south to be protected by the vSpear. The other units move 1N. An vImpi watches the stack move by and ignore him.

Increase Science to 40%; Engineering in 19 turns, +7 gpt.
​

[IBT]
Nanking vHorse -> vHorse in 5.
Tatung settler -> settler in 30.

Zulus send 3 Impis towards Mountain View.

6 0250 AD

Pink Clover sails east again.

Our stack moves north into Zulu territory. We pillage the road we are on.

Canton is cranky, so we hire a geek.

​

[IBT]
The Zulus do not attack Mountain View but go to the hill SW of the city.

7 0260 AD

SettlerToVolcanoArea builds Riverside; grows in 7, harbor in 30.

Pink Clover sails east one more time.

We find the Zulu city of Ulundi (3) and move towards it.

Minor Skirmishes Near Mountian View
vArcher vs. eImpi, Impi wins (3 of 4).
vArcher vs. rImpi, Impi wins (3 of 5).
vArcher vs. rImpi, Archer wins (4 of 6).
vSword vs. eImpi 3/5, Impi retreats, redlined (5 of 7).
vArcher vs. rImpi 2/3, Archer wins and promotes to Elite (6 of 8).
vSword vs vImpi, Impi wins (6 of 9).

Not too good, but we still have 4 units in Mountain View.
​

[IBT]
We lose the just promoted eArcher to an Impi (6 of 10)
The wounded eImpi captures two workers.
Other Impis appear around Mountain View.

Sea worker -> harbor in 30.

Wonderful News

The Temple of Artemis is built in Madrid, Spain.

Pink Clover is lost at sea.

8 0270 AD

Minor Skirmishes
vSword vs. eImpi 1/5, Sword wins with one swing, but the workers are still destroyed (7 of 11).
vHorse vs rImpi 1/3, Horse wins (8 of 12).

Battle of Ulundi (3)
vArcher vs. rImpi, Archer wins (9 of 13).
eSword vs. rImpi, Sword wins (10 of 14).

Good News

We don't have enough units to keep the city and wage an offensive war. We raze the city instead. If the Zulu want to build it back, fine, we'll take it again.
We gain 1 slave.

We create two stacks of units here to allow our wounded to survive this turn. Both need two turns to fully heal.

More Minor Skirmishes
vSword vs vHorse, Sword wins and promotes to Elite (11 of 15).
We move another vSword to reinforce that one, since 2 Impis are adjacent to the just promoted Elite unit.

We have a large gap between our offensive units. Mountain View has 4; 3N of Mountain View is where the wounded from Umtata have healed. Further north from them are the units that just razed Ulundi. Those units need to gather together, somehow.

Scroll through the cities to focus on military unit builds.

Beijing is building a vSword. Needs 1 shield to complete, bringing in 11, so an overrun of 10 shields. Ouch!
Ex-Slavery is making a worker and nets 1 shield. Maximize food and ignore shields.
Shanghai needs 1 more shield to complete the vHorse. Swap tiles to get that extra shield; flood plain to plains.
Watery is building a libary.
Canton is making a vSpear, completes this turn. Work the sugar instead of the hill and Canton grows in 6 turns, not 8.
Nanking nets 6 spt, it is okay, vHorse in 3 turns with no overrun of shields.
Bangalore is also corrupt, nets 1 shield, settler in 6, is fine.
Tsingtao nets 4 spt, vHorse in 30, so we can expect some overrun. Can't do much here.
Tatung is a slow settler builder, 1 spt, 28 turns to go.
Irony nets 9 spt, needs only 3 more sheilds for the vSword.
Hangchow is geek heaven for now, netting 4 spt and with 47 shields towards the libary, needs 33 more (9 turns).
Xinjian is another library builder, but it has a long way to go.
Grapeville is still focused on a courthouse, netting 2 spt and 16 turns to go.
Macao is 5 turns from a vSpear, netting 3 spt.
Anyang steals a tile from Xinjian the vHorse completes in 6 not 8.
Mountian View's vSword completes in 21 turns, but by then a settler might make more sense, as we resettle Old Zulu.
Forestville is building a place to keep books.
Desert Marsh is building a worker.
Spacious Meadows, set on a library, focuses on food, not sheilds.
Sea is buidling a harbor and needs to grow. Plus, it is too far away from the war.
Great View will soon get a forest chop to help the library.
Barbarian Outpust I will birth a worker in 2.
ShoreLeave will birth a worker in 4.
Riverside is looking for a harbor.


So, not much we could do to improve our military builds, but we get familiar with what is going on in each city.

According to MapStat we have 24 cities; Zulu 10.
Our culture is 256; theirs is 374; both are growing at +2.

Fiddle with the science slider, currently at 40%, 15 turns and +20 gpt. At 50%, 11 turns and -2 gpt. Since our income has been rising the last few turns, I don't expect it to be negative gpt for very long. Science at 50%.
​

[IBT]
Impi attacks our vHorse outside Mountain View and dies. We become Elite. (12 of 16)

Beijing vSword -> vSword in 3.
Shanghai vHorse -> vHorse in 5.
Canton vSpear -> vSpear in 4.
Irony vSword -> vSword in 4.


Wonderful News

The Great Library is built in Salamanca, Iroquois.


More Wonderful News

The Hanging Gardens are built in Athens, Greece.


9 0280 AD

We have cranky citizens.
Hire a geek in Grapeville.
Hire a geek in Babarian Outpost I for one turn (worker is built this IBT).
Hire a geek in Bangalore (settler), now at zero growth.
For Shanghai, Canton and Beijing, where we lose too much by using specialists, it is easier to raise the happy slider. This affects the other cities as well.
Grapeville, gotta keep the geek.
Barbarian Outpost I, still need the geek.
Bangalore, keep the geek.
Now at -22 gpt, due to more units and higher luxury tax. I did not lower the science slider.
Engineering in 8.

We raid a barbarian camp out west and gain 25 gold.

We have too many workers out west and our core needs improving. Start to send workers towards Beijing.

Soduku City is founded between Great View and Riverside; harbor in 30, grows in 5. It is already connected to Beijing.

Minor Skirmishes
eHorse 4/5 vs. rArcher, Archer wins and promotes (12 of 17).
eSword 4/5 vs. rHorse, Horse retreats (13 of 18).
vArcher vs. vArcher 3/4, we lose and that Archer promotes again (13 of 19).
vSword vs. eArcher 2/5, Sword wins with no damage (14 of 20).
vSword vs. rImpi, Sword wins and promotes to Elite (15 of 21).

Our split stack of attackers stay in place to allow the wounded to heal.
​

[IBT]
An Impi scoots down and enters the forest SE of Macao, heading for the empty city of Irony.

Barbarian Outpost I worker -> worker in 10.

10 0290 AD

Minor Skirmishes
vSword vs rImpi, Sword wins (16 of 22).

Our short stack of vSpear, eArcher and now eSword move onto a mountain and see Bapedi (3) and an unconnected Horse.
Our split stacks stay in place. Both wounded units will be fully healed next turn.

Two vHorses patrol the fog in Old India; one is now around Bangalore and the other near Grapeville.

Grapeville is cranky (thanks, MapStat!), hire another geek.
​

[IBT]
The save is attached.

 

[CommandoBob]

The war on Zulu has gone well. Two cities have been razed and we lost no units taking those cities. All of our losses came from around Mountain View, where we lost 6 units. Zulu lost 14.

Around Mountain View there are no more Zulu units. So I think those forces can consolidate and begin to move out.

Zulu War

Mountain View is hidden in the picture, behind the mini-map. NE of it are 2 vSwords and E of them are 2 Swords and a vHorse. One Sword is wounded. It did not move this turn, so it will heal over the IBT. Next turn, the 2 vSwords to the West should move into this tile. In turn, these units will stay in place, the eSword will fully heal and they can move out the following turn.

On the mountian 3N of this small stack are three more units; vSpear, eArcher and wounded eSword. It is at 2/5 and will need three turns to fully heal. This stack moved onto the mountain this turn.

Before the eSword on the mountain can move, the Sword stack will have move twice, and will at one of the Pink Dots. The plan is that both stacks combine together and attack Bapedi from either one of the Blue-Gray circles. I don't think it matters which circle or where you join up. But you do want to be one stack inside Zulu borders.

Much further north are our two split stacks of attackers. The wounded here will be fully healed next turn, so they can combine into one stack. I was rather surprised that they were not attacked at all while they healed. Both stacks need to move onto the Blue dot, which has road. Next turn, move to hill and then just move east. Somewhere in the fog is the Zulu capital, Zimbabwe, and The Oracle. The Oracle doesn't help us any, but I don't want to destroy unless necessary. We can keep Zimbabwe. Any other cities we can raze.

We have more units coming into the battle from the south. If the other two stacks are doing fine, let these units build up and then move west and destroy that part of Zulu.

Worker Notes
Two workers next to Riverside can make a road to connect the city.
Two workers next to Great View will finish their chop this IBT. Then they can irrgate.
Worker near Sea is building a road in order to connect the city. Once the city is connected is can start irrigating and roading.
Worker N of Xinjian is headed towards the core, to road and improve.
Workers SE of Tsingtao need to road the irrigated plain. That tile is being worked by Tsingtao.
Worker SE of Barbarian Outpost I needs to connect that city to the road network. Then irrigate the Wheat 1S of the city, obscured by the city nameplate.
Worker on the hill SW of Canton is building a road. Canton is not working the mined hill, so this road is rather useless right now. But it will let us connect to the Sugar and out to Desert Marsh.
Worker 2SE of Beijing is buiding a road to bypass Beijing and all those rivers. Started the road this turn.
Worker NW of Hangchow is placed to chop the forest to help with Hangchow's library build.
Slave in Macao can either go to Mountain View and start a road towards Zulu or water and then road the Sugar NW of Macao.
The slave in the stacks to the far north needs to stay with those units until it is safe to send elsewhere.

Science Farms
It looks like part of Old India will not be very productive, not when 4 out of 5 shields are corrupted. In those places we want to irrigate and road everything. Mines won't help us any; their shields will be wasted. Instead, water everything and have the cities focus on growth when they grow. The governor will emphasize production, but we need to watch that in this area, since more production does not always equal more shields we can use. Once the cities reach their maximum growth, either to size 6 or 12, we want to hire as many geeks as we can but not let the city starve. Each geek adds 3 beakers to our next tech.

The coastal cities here need to build a harbor for extra food and commerce. They also need to build a library to help with science. After that, they can make workers and settlers.

Tech
We learn Engineering in 7 turns, -16 gpt, 193. We can run at a slightly higher rate for a short while, but the miltary support will soon drop us back down. We really need this tech so that we can build bridges and get our units to the front lines faster.

After Engineering we want to learn Feudalism, and get Pikes and Maces.

Astronomy would be a nice tech to have. It would help us explore the world by sea. We can build galleys now, but their chances on the high seas are not good. Regardless, we need to build them and sent them on suicide runs to find the other Civs. But this can wait until the Zulus are dead.

 

[CommandoBob]

Roster:
CommandoBob - just played
Yahya - UP!
ngraner42 - on deck
Northen Wolf - warming up
darski

 

[choxorn]

lurker's comment: Nice job, you've cut Zululand in two.

And BTW, the game is called "Sudoku", not "Soduku".

 

[Yahya]

Allowed Units: 47
Total Units: 21
Unit Support: 52 gpt

I'm pretty sure you meant Allowed: 21, Total 47, for 52 gpt. Just checking.

I have downloaded the save, and will get to it tomorrow night. At least a little bit. It might take me until Saturday morning to finish my turn, but should finish by Thursday night.

 

[darski]

Great job on those turns CommandoBob.

It looks like we could own our continent in the not too distant future. Our Rep is clean (I believe) so meeting other Civs won't be a *problem* (I could explain that but then I'd have to kill you)

 

[Aabraxan]

lurker's comment:

Science Farms
It looks like part of Old India will not be very productive, not when 4 out of 5 shields are corrupted. In those places we want to irrigate and road everything. Mines won't help us any; their shields will be wasted. Instead, water everything and have the cities focus on growth when they grow. The governor will emphasize production, but we need to watch that in this area, since more production does not always equal more shields we can use. Once the cities reach their maximum growth, either to size 6 or 12, we want to hire as many geeks as we can but not let the city starve. Each geek adds 3 beakers to our next tech.

The coastal cities here need to build a harbor for extra food and commerce. They also need to build a library to help with science. After that, they can make workers and settlers. . . . .

CBob, are you talking about building harbors and libraries out in the farmlands? Surely not. . .

 

[CommandoBob]

lurker's comment: Nice job, you've cut Zululand in two.

And BTW, the game is called "Sudoku", not "Soduku".

I thought it looked wrong but isn't that is how it is pronounced? So Du Ku?

We'll let Yahya fixe my spilling misteak.

I'm pretty sure you meant Allowed: 21, Total 47, for 52 gpt. Just checking.

I have downloaded the save, and will get to it tomorrow night. At least a little bit. It might take me until Saturday morning to finish my turn, but should finish by Thursday night.

That has to be right. Otherwise the gpt doesn't make sense.

Great job on those turns CommandoBob.

It looks like we could own our continent in the not too distant future. Our Rep is clean (I believe) so meeting other Civs won't be a *problem* (I could explain that but then I'd have to kill you)

Thank you.

I anticpated many more Zulu attacks on Mountain View and the three unit stack healing on the ruins of Umtata. One Spear defending two wounded Elites and no attacks, even with Horses or Archers?

They were not the Zulus I expected them to be.

lurker's comment:

CBob, are you talking about building harbors and libraries out in the farmlands? Surely not. . .

(I have latent builder tendencies.)

I tend to build libraries everywhere; harbors are a more recent fixation. With all that good grassland to irrigate we can cram in a lot more cities.

I have a hard time building 30 turn settlers, too.

But feel free to explain what you would do in Old India. I'm reverting to reflex and that is not always the best thing to do....

 

[choxorn]

lurker's comment: Libararies and Harbors are good. Build them wherever possible, as the food bonus of harbors and border expansion/bpt bonus of libraries are very useful.

 

[darski]

I admit to a fondness for harbours. I like any port city to be able to offer aid and comfort to my Navy. You never know when you will need to seek a safe *harbour*.


Just on an off-note, That little island with horses just below our southern coast bothers me. I would like to own that baby so that no one else can come along and get that close to us.

 

[Northen Wolf]

CBob, now I understand why your turnlogs are considered 'legendary'. Awesome game! I would have not made it/or would have made too many mistakes, thank you.

I don't like building libraries in every town, especially science farms(my own attempts). I see no use for one, if city produces 10 commerce and 7 of it is wasted to corruption. Then again I sort my towns by science production and build library to all towns that produce more science than others (6+ breakers per turn).

I do like having harbor in every coastal town, because that will just allow growth, from sea tiles(and one +3 food tile, that can be pillaged if tiles are needed) and higher commerce. Building navy/naval battles is hard, for me, as I never find towns to crank out naval units from. So those farms can build few 'boats'.

 

[Aabraxan]

lurker's comment: CBob, are you talking about building harbors and libraries out in the farmlands? Surely not. . .

(I have latent builder tendencies.)

I tend to build libraries everywhere; harbors are a more recent fixation. With all that good grassland to irrigate we can cram in a lot more cities.

I have a hard time building 30 turn settlers, too.

But feel free to explain what you would do in Old India. I'm reverting to reflex and that is not always the best thing to do....

lurker's comment: Libararies and Harbors are good. Build them wherever possible, as the food bonus of harbors and border expansion/bpt bonus of libraries are very useful.

I admit to a fondness for harbours. I like any port city to be able to offer aid and comfort to my Navy. You never know when you will need to seek a safe *harbour*. . . . .

I do like having harbor in every coastal town, because that will just allow growth, from sea tiles(and one +3 food tile, that can be pillaged if tiles are needed) and higher commerce. Building navy/naval battles is hard, for me, as I never find towns to crank out naval units from. So those farms can build few 'boats'.

I seem to have brought up quite the controversial subject.

Harbors -- I'm a big fan of harbors . . . in low to moderate corruption areas. In the farmlands, not so much. Why? Harbors cost 60 shields and add +1 food to coastal squares. In those low-moderate corruption areas, working the coasts can bring in a lot of gold and that's good. Build a harbor and you can turn a few extra citizens into fishermen. Each fisherman is able to support him (or her) self. The gold that comes in more than pays for the upkeep on the harbor. The magic of specialist farms is that they allow you to turn food into beakers or gold. A coastal tile with no harbor is a 1 food tile. A harbor makes it a 2 food tile. How many additional specialists does that allow you to hire? None. In order to hire specialists, each worked tile must produce more food than is consumed by the citizen working it. That cannot happen with coastal tiles. They max out at 2 food, all of which is eaten by the citizen working that tile.

As an example, take a size 1 specialist farm totally surrounded by barren tundra, and assume that you have a non-agri civ. The city center produces 2 food. That is enough to turn your one and only citizen in a specialist and leave it at that. What happens if you build a harbor? The city center still produces 2 food and now you can put that one citizen out on the water for an additional 2 food. OK. The city will keep growing and each new citizen will have to be put out on the water just to support him or herself. Eventually, you can hire one specialist, just as you could at size 1.

The one exception to this is if you have a farm that is at +1 food and already has one citizen working the water. In that case, you can build a harbor and "zero out" food and growth. Personally, I build settlers and workers out of those, rather than pay for a harbor just to zero out food.

What about the commerce from the water? These are specialist farms I'm talking about. They're 90% corrupt anyway, so any additional gold that you get by working the water is lost to corruption. You'll still have to pay the upkeep though.

Libraries -- Northen Wolf gets it in one:

. . . . I don't like building libraries in every town, especially science farms(my own attempts). I see no use for one, if city produces 10 commerce and 7 of it is wasted to corruption. Then again I sort my towns by science production and build library to all towns that produce more science than others (6+ breakers per turn).

Libraries in your science farms won't get you any additional beakers. Specialist output does not go through libraries or banks or other multipliers. The only thing that that goes through is uncorrupted commerce. Out in the farmlands, most farms will only produce 1 uncorrupted gpt, and that won't even cover the upkeep on the library.

If you want the culture from libraries, that's one thing, but for purposes of beakers and that 50% science boost, it's all about uncorrupted commerce, building maintenance and the sliders. If I remember the order in which things are paid, under NW's example, the city only produces 3 uncorrupted gold, 1 goes to upkeep, and 2 go through the library, and those only if you're running 100% science. So biggest boost that NW's city will get: 1 beaker per turn.

 

[Northen Wolf]

Spoiler :

Harbors -- I'm a big fan of harbors . . . in low to moderate corruption areas. In the farmlands, not so much. Why? Harbors cost 60 shields and add +1 food to coastal squares. In those low-moderate corruption areas, working the coasts can bring in a lot of gold and that's good. Build a harbor and you can turn a few extra citizens into fishermen. Each fisherman is able to support him (or her) self. The gold that comes in more than pays for the upkeep on the harbor. The magic of specialist farms is that they allow you to turn food into beakers or gold. A coastal tile with no harbor is a 1 food tile. A harbor makes it a 2 food tile. How many additional specialists does that allow you to hire? None. In order to hire specialists, each worked tile must produce more food than is consumed by the citizen working it. That cannot happen with coastal tiles. They max out at 2 food, all of which is eaten by the citizen working that tile.

As an example, take a size 1 specialist farm totally surrounded by barren tundra, and assume that you have a non-agri civ. The city center produces 2 food. That is enough to turn your one and only citizen in a specialist and leave it at that. What happens if you build a harbor? The city center still produces 2 food and now you can put that one citizen out on the water for an additional 2 food. OK. The city will keep growing and each new citizen will have to be put out on the water just to support him or herself. Eventually, you can hire one specialist, just as you could at size 1.

The one exception to this is if you have a farm that is at +1 food and already has one citizen working the water. In that case, you can build a harbor and "zero out" food and growth. Personally, I build settlers and workers out of those, rather than pay for a harbor just to zero out food.

What about the commerce from the water? These are specialist farms I'm talking about. They're 90% corrupt anyway, so any additional gold that you get by working the water is lost to corruption. You'll still have to pay the upkeep though.

I am sorry, that I did not add - corrupt coastal cities yes, can support low amount of specialists, even with courthouse lot of commerce will be lost, but I usually try to get coastal city above size 6, so they would produce more commerce and higher unit support:

Unit Support Town/City/Metro: 1/3/4
Notes: Military over the cap cost 2 gpt.

That 2+ unit support can help a lot, saving total 4 gpt.

So I view harbors as marketplaces(giving more income) without happiness bonus, also save land tiles for larger cities. Also size 6 < town gives more commerce in center city tile, and harbors help even more commerce, making good sciense/income cities, if non corrupt or half corrupt (with help of courthouse).

Problem is they need water to grow [aquaduct - is word that I can't write, so I'll write aqua. instead, if someone says how it is written, I'll edit this post]. That means city needs aqua. and harbor to grow.
Usually even corrupt costal city produces enough gold to pay for harbor and/or 3+ breakers/ 2+ gold per turn(depends of town area). Building those improvements can be quite a bit investment, but IMO it is worth it.

*Can I sell aqua. after town is size 7? I have not tried it, but it might be good to know and try to learn micromanagement.

I usually let coastal only (with few land tiles in its area) city to grow size seven, then Micromanage it, so would not grow anymore (to size where it would need temples). I often enough found 'Fishing outposts' for that reason, on lone islands or area where sea tiles are not used by any of large cities, just use one land tile (city center square) + 1 tile(for growth, that gets moved to sea tile after town has grown).

That would need 6 water tiles to work or 1 cultural border expansion(onto sea), usually it is simple to get that, as larger cities have temples - already have 2x cultural border expansion. I can always rush-build temple and then sell it. IMO waste of gold (to rush build) and/or time is worth it. Is'nt it?

Did I get it all correct or is that strategy faulty?

 

[Aabraxan]

I am sorry, that I did not add - corrupt coastal cities yes, can support low amount of specialists, even with courthouse lot of commerce will be lost, but I usually try to get coastal city above size 6, so they would produce more commerce and higher unit support:

That 2+ unit support can help a lot, saving total 4 gpt.

You are absolutely correct on the unit support. Republic is 1/3/4, so increasing any town to city status triples the units it will support. You can also achieve this effect by putting down two more towns. However, putting down two more towns does not require:
A harbor -- 60 shields +1gpt
A courthouse -- 80 shields +1 gpt
An aqueduct -- 100 shields +1 gpt
Total: 240 shields + 3gpt

By comparison, two extra towns come to:
4 pop
2 settlers -- 60 shields + up to 4 gpt until they settle

With that said, a courthouse may tip the scales on this analysis, changing a city from a "no harbor" town to a "courthouse, harbor, aqueduct town." Look at each town and determine what the empire needs the city to have. One of the oft-repeated phrases on this board is: Your cities need nothing. What does the empire need for your cities to have?

Harbors have other functions, like healing and trade routes, and if you find yourself in a position that you need one (for example) to heal or upgrade boats in a far flung coastal town, don't hesitate to build it. Same for establishing trade routes. Don't hesitate to build what the empire needs. The main point of my other post, though, was: Don't build them in the science farms just for growth. It may not actually benefit you.

So I view harbors as marketplaces(giving more income) without happiness bonus, also save land tiles for larger cities. Also size 6 < town gives more commerce in center city tile, and harbors help even more commerce, making good sciense/income cities, if non corrupt or half corrupt (with help of courthouse).

If you're talking about non-corrupt or half-corrupt cities, well, those aren't going to be specialist farms, anyway, are they?

As a heavy farm user, I can tell you that farms feed themselves off of land tiles, not sea. The exception is fish and whales. Coastal tiles won't boost food in the sea past 2.

One other tip on specialist farms: If you're away from the coast, you want to maximize the amount of land that you can irrigate. Building on hills is one way to do this. You can't irrigate a hill, so if you build your farm on the grassland next to a hill, you've done two things. First, (for non-agri civs) you've just ensured that the grass, a 2-food tile which can later become a 4-food tile, stays at 2 food. You've also ensured that the hill, a 1-food tile which can't be irrigated, stays at 1 food. OTOH, build on the hill and you've: (1) freed up the grassland for irrigation and later railing (to make it 4 food); and (2) magically turned that 1 food hill into a 2-food tile. Plus, in some cases, that opens the door to irrigate through the city so that you can get water to the other side of the hill. (Agri civs change farming somewhat and you're not agri here, so I've stayed away from them in the analysis.)

Problem is they need water to grow [aquaduct - is word that I can't write, so I'll write aqua. instead, if someone says how it is written, I'll edit this post]. That means city needs aqua. and harbor to grow.
Usually even corrupt costal city produces enough gold to pay for harbor and/or 3+ breakers/ 2+ gold per turn(depends of town area). Building those improvements can be quite a bit investment, but IMO it is worth it.

The value of those improvements depends on corruption level and terrain. If you're talking about 30% corrupt towns, by all means, improve them. If you're talking about 60% corrupt lands, they may or may not pay for themselves. If you're at 90%, they probably will not.

(Technically, it's spelled "aqueduct, but don't worry about your spelling, NW. We all understand what an aqua is. I suspect fairly few of us even know how to say "aqueduct" in a foreign language. I know I don't.)

If anyone is interested in taking a look at corruption levels and how to maximize beakers, I'd suggest taking Bede's Challenge #1. Bede turned our entire empire into clowns and challenged us to see who could produce the most beakers out of the whole empire. Virtually every tactic known to man was used: an SGL was available, some players rushed courthouses and police stations, we micromanaged tiles, disbanded units to get below unit support limits, you name it. It was an exceptionally educational exercise.

*Can I sell aqua. after town is size 7? I have not tried it, but it might be good to know and try to learn micromanagement.

No, aquas cannot be sold.

I usually let coastal only (with few land tiles in its area) city to grow size seven, then Micromanage it, so would not grow anymore (to size where it would need temples). I often enough found 'Fishing outposts' for that reason, on lone islands or area where sea tiles are not used by any of large cities, just use one land tile (city center square) + 1 tile(for growth, that gets moved to sea tile after town has grown).

That would need 6 water tiles to work or 1 cultural border expansion(onto sea), usually it is simple to get that, as larger cities have temples - already have 2x cultural border expansion. I can always rush-build temple and then sell it. IMO waste of gold (to rush build) and/or time is worth it. Is'nt it?

I don't build very many temples. I mean, I really, really don't build very many. Sometimes I'll go several games on end without building any at all. Sometimes, though, I will rush one to grab a fish or a whale. Then I usually sell the temple after the border pop. If I'm scientific, I'll build a library instead. Again, you need to look at the city's corruption to see if this tactic is going to be worth it. If doing what you've said earns me a few extra coins after corruption, it might be worth it, but it depends on how late in the game it is. At the stage of the game where this one currently is, I'm much more likely to do so than, say, the point in the game where I've got a couple of tank armies and the AI is on death watch.

Did I get it all correct or is that strategy faulty?

I may disagree with some of the value judgments, but you're clearly taking a thorough look at the issues. If you (or anyone else) doesn't agree with me or my advice, put my theories to the test. Load up some old saves, rush some builds and look at the numbers, then post the results. I'd much rather be proven wrong than continue to give bad information.

 

[choxorn]

No, aquas cannot be sold.

lurker's comment: Indeed- as long as the city they are in exists, you could fire a million nukes at it and it wouldn't be destroyed. Well, okay, you can't have a million nukes, but you get the idea.

 

[Northen Wolf]

Thank you, Aabraxan, for your comments.

 

[Yahya]

I won't get to this until at least Saturday, and my time will be sporadic at best until at least next week.

I think we'd better skip me this round, unless you want to wait indefinitely.

 

[Yahya]

Please skip me, guys. I will not have the time for, for probably about two weeks.