Myth01- Training Day- Regent

[Aabraxan]

lurker's comment:

Mountain View is working on a temple. I will be irrigating toward Irony, but some buildup around Mountain View is a good idea to hurry that temple, in my opinion.

Why the temple? What's the return on this 60-shield + upkeep investment?

. . . . As a general rule, I don't disband units that have made a leader. Nor do I send them out into normal combat; they serve as a reserve. Sorta silly, I know. But they can still be used to put down resistance in newly captured cities.

We can't upgrade him to Longbow until we learn Invention.

However, this is an Elite unit and it can fight and it may have to. Disband a vArcher to protect an eArcher; that makes sense. I would even disband another eArcher to protect this one, so that we could upgrade it to a vLongbow and try to get a second leader out of this one unit. I don't think I would disband 2 eArchers to keep this one.

Apparently, I'm not as sentimental about my units as CBob. I'd disband an Elite* before an Elite. I keep elites around until just after the coming of the Apocolypse. Under Republic, you've got no MPs, but elite*s can quell resistance in newly capture towns. Do your barb hunting with vets. Once a unit becomes elite, send it home to heal, then off to the front lines where it can leader-fish. (You can't get leaders from barbs, but you can get promotions).

How is sword production coming? Archers are fine for very early wars and barb hunting. Truth be told, I think I do better with archers and like them better than many players, but swords will do much better against the Zulu.

 

[Yahya]

Why the temple? What's the return on this 60-shield + upkeep investment?

Due to a concern about the city flipping from losing two tiles to the Zulu, and our culture deficit to the Zulu. We need to keep that city on our side, lest we inadvertently spread the Zulu empire. Though, I am open to suggestions on that.

How is sword production coming? Archers are fine for very early wars and barb hunting. Truth be told, I think I do better with archers and like them better than many players, but swords will do much better against the Zulu.[/delurk]

We have swords being built in three or four cities right now, coming out every 3-6 turns. We have 11 swordsmen already produced. We have an army with two swords in it. I'm not sure if those two count toward the total.

 

[Aabraxan]

Due to a concern about the city flipping from losing two tiles to the Zulu, and our culture deficit to the Zulu. We need to keep that city on our side, lest we inadvertently spread the Zulu empire. Though, I am open to suggestions on that.

Suggestion: Swords. Horses. Archers. Get your forces organized and get ready for war with the Zulu. Yes, you've got to keep expanding into Old India. But Zulu towns won't steal tiles if you *ahem* "adjust their borders for them." Their borders have to be near yours to steal tiles. And dead civs don't make cities flip. More on this below.

We have swords being built in three or four cities right now, coming out every 3-6 turns. We have 11 swordsmen already produced. We have an army with two swords in it. I'm not sure if those two count toward the total.

11 Swords, a sword army and however many archers you have is more than enough to hurt the Zulu. Why are there only 2 swords in that army? Put the third in and get ready to go kick down Zulu doors. The AI basically will not touch a healthy army at this stage of the game. Unless you hurt your own army attacking a city, don't worry about the AI killing it. Obviously, you'd prefer to kill them off all at once, but that may not happen. You may have to make war on the Zulu more than once. That's OK. If you push them back and kill 4-5 towns, my guess is that's about half their empire right now. They'll never recover from that. You'll just beat on them a bit, make peace in exchange for something (gold, techs, towns, something), then spend 20 turns gearing up for the next push.

 

[darski]

I agree with Aabraxan. I think we have enough power to get or remove a couple of cities. However, we need to understand that this is the Zulu and they will have been preparing for war with us.

also... don't forget their units in our land - they will have to be dealt with and our settlers and workers kept safe from harm.

 

[Yahya]

Good points, all.

The army has two swords because I got the save with the army at Macao, and haven't had the turns to get more swords up there to join up yet. That's the only reason. They are on their way, though.

Hmm. Maybe Zulu-killing is in my forecast after all.

 

[Yahya]

All true, darski. They have one warrior and one scout (that I have seen).

There might be one more warrior in the northern fog.

Based on my estimates, the Zulu have nine cities up, with two right on top of us.

There is also an iron to the east of Mountain View and Macao, that I don't want them to have. Kicking that border city might be a great idea to shore that up. But, it makes the chokepoint void excepting a fallback position, that we likely won't need.

 

[vmxa]

Lurker:

IIRC the trial run it was about 60/40 your favor for just 4 archers, all vets. I may have run that against 3 defenders, so it could have been higher in your favor. I just do not trust archers to win unless they are going against 1 defense units or damaged units.

 

[darski]

Not to be mean but you can think of those archers as an artillery. They can maybe take a couple of hit points off a unit and then die, which reduces our unit count and gets us a softer target for our swords.

There is a risk of promoting their guys of course but it's just a possibility

 

[CommandoBob]

@Yahya: Our culture is less than the Zulu, but not enough to worry about. If their culture were twice as great as ours, I would be concerned about a culture flip. As it is, our total culture is very close to their total culture; we might be 10 or 20 points behind them. A flip chance does exist, but it is very small. MapStat (an ingame utility) shows the flip chance, so does CivAssist II.

Both will also show the number of cities an AI has. Feel free to use either one or both of them; they won't tell anything you could not find out from the game directly but they do it a lot quicker. Trading and rioting cities are big things that change turn by turn. Both will tell you which cities are about to riot and if something has changed in trading.

CivAssist II has a spoiler mode; I don't recall about MapStat. I don't use that mode.

@Aabraxan: The 2 sword Army is my fault. I made the Army and wanted to get it to our front lines quickly. We only had two swords in the area at that time. I could say it was a test (will anyone notice that our army has only two swords?) but actually it is sloppy hand-off notes.

 

[Aabraxan]

. . . .The army has two swords because I got the save with the army at Macao, and haven't had the turns to get more swords up there to join up yet. That's the only reason. They are on their way, though.

Fair enough.

Hmm. Maybe Zulu-killing is in my forecast after all.

There are plenty of "administrative turns" to go around and everyone gets their chance to play them. If those are the turns you inherit, so be it and you spend your turns organizing as best you can for the next player. I just wanted to point out that you do have the firepower to go slap Shaka around a bit.

Take note of vxma's comments, though. Now that you have swords, try to use the archers for: (1) barbs; (2) wounded units; and (3) leader-fishing. Once that army is fully loaded, it'll be plenty tough enough to crack open most Zulu cities. Use the army, the horses and the swords for healthy Zulu units.

. . . .There is also an iron to the east of Mountain View and Macao, that I don't want them to have. Kicking that border city might be a great idea to shore that up. But, it makes the chokepoint void excepting a fallback position, that we likely won't need.

I suspected that you'd never really need the chokepoint. From the looks of things, you've got plenty of room to expand in several directions. Hurting Shaka now means that he won't be a problem later, though. If he doesn't have iron or horses, then the worst you'll face is the Impi. Does anyone know if he's had his GA yet?

Not to be mean but you can think of those archers as an artillery. They can maybe take a couple of hit points off a unit and then die, which reduces our unit count and gets us a softer target for our swords. . . . .

You'll have to deal with the WW from this tactic, but there's some truth to darski's comment. I use archers and horses (effectively) as a form of artillery if I've got to go through unroaded jungle to get to an enemy, but don't have the workers to road the path. Archers are cheaper, but horses can retreat.

 

[Northen Wolf]

I'd like to point out that our war with Zulus will trigger their golden age.

Also that we would need horsemen AND swords in our stack of doom, with couple of surviving archers below stack. That is due horses have 2 movement points (means -> attacking and back into stack). I usually use 50% of horses in stack to attack towns (due they have retreat ability).

Should we not make more horsemen, as chinas UU can be upgraded from horses?

Edit:

There are plenty of "administrative turns" to go around and everyone gets their chance to play them

I do not get what you mean - Non native English speaker

 

[Aabraxan]

I'd like to point out that our war with Zulus will trigger their golden age.

And if they only have ~9 cities, it's nothing to worry about. Also, if they're still in despotism, that GA won't do them much good anyway. All they'll do is provide a few more units for you to use as "leader bait."

Should we not make more horsemen, as chinas UU can be upgraded from horses?

Right now, I'd keep the archers that you have, but the military focus should be horses, swords and cats.

There are plenty of "administrative turns" to go around and everyone gets their chance to play them.

I do not get what you mean - Non native English speaker

By "administrative turns," I meant those turns during which you're at peace, but you're getting ready for war. You spend them doing things like: (1) building roads to the front; (2) exploring enemy territory (& getting told to leave); (3) moving units into stacks. You're not "at war," but you're getting the empire organized for war. Does that make sense?

 

[darski]

I'm testing my dot map and uploading pictures ability here. I have loaded other pics but I was going to try to play with upload attachments... changed my mind and will just use photobucket

I still think that green dot is a good spot for a city and not just to keep the iron from Shaka. It follows the CxxC from the other towns, has a river and is on a hill. i prefer it to settling on the iron because of the river.

 

[vmxa]

Not to be mean but you can think of those archers as an artillery. They can maybe take a couple of hit points off a unit and then die, which reduces our unit count and gets us a softer target for our swords.

There is a risk of promoting their guys of course but it's just a possibility

I am not sure what is mean about adding to a conversation, but I do sort of think as them as artillery. They are great in a stack that is being attacked as they have bombardment, they are shaking on attack and horrific on defense.

As was mentioned, losing units in outside of your borders tends to annoy the populace. You also could promote the defender. So all in all, I won't attack spears with archer, unless I must or I have enough to be sure to met my objective.

The best case for archer on spear with 3 hit points, is a coin flip. Not even that good, if spear is vet, has walls or hill or river or bombardment backups.

So my point was just that, they may have to be used, but they are not reliable.

 

[darski]

I agree. i use that tactic more when I really don't care if they make the kill or survive. I just need to be pounding the enemy. they would be disbanded anyway so you don't lose by having them in the battle.

 

[Yahya]

@darski: I didn't take it as mean. No problem at all. And your reasoning is sound.

Here is a better picture of the north border, which includes Mountain View (I changed production there to a barracks, by the way). I like your reasoning on adding a city up there as well.

Spoiler :

 

[Northen Wolf]

Moving army into mountain view, would certainly reduce risk of flip to 0% eventho, risk is small (like 0.002%?).

Could you check trade screen, if Zulus got grapes? (too lazy to check myself).

Oh and we could use scout, whom would move around and into Zulus border, for scouting purpose. "Knowing your enemy, is half of a victory" - some wise guy.

Also Irony has 2 units garrisoned (right?) move one sword towards Macao or Mountain View.

My preference would be, that mountain view would build walls first (as AI ignores river def bonus anyway it will give more!). then barracks.

EDIT: nice roads, I am not good knowing graphics, but did the roads come with original(what's the graphics)?

 

[darski]

I do think we need a horseman to do some wandering around in Zulu Territory. There is land that we can traverse without threat of getting booted. (horse just for speed)

 

[Yahya]

Zulu do not have grapes. Only dyes. They have 10 cities, by the way (from CivAssist).

I'm not sure a horseman in Zulu territory is such a good idea. I am not interested in a war declaration until we are ready. Not that he would, but I'd hate to get caught with my pants down.

Irony has one vArcher and one vSword. Good point. I will move the vSword and have him join the army. Then move that army to Mountain View.

Changed Mountain View production to walls, then barracks. Your reasoning is sound, Northen Wolf.

Off to my turns now.

 

[choxorn]

lurker's comment: On Culture, you may not need it in your core, but put it in your outer cities to give yourself more territory and help keep the AI away.