NES Economics Thread

I wasn't giving "snide criticism." I just find it annoying that you write in huge blocks of text that need to be edited for the sake of readability.

My wording was inappropriate and I apologize, though I did try to point out that it was in the writing and not the content by emphasizing "written." What I meant to say was: "An economics guide that's not written in the style of Masada."

If you find that offensive, well, meh.
 
No problem, yes I write in big blocks of text, which are probably difficult to read I know that (I have however resisted internally referencing everything, using copious amounts of formulas, and I’ve resisted talking to much about financial instruments my pet subject). And before you ask, economists typically do not write for the public, so my style is really the result of writing for people intimate with the profession.

I won’t be writing so generally for any guide I get around to doing, I’ll just write about the dominant school of economic thought at the time, what policy actions it allows, the typical results of this over the short and long term, and things like that (for the modern-ish world), and for the pre-industrial I’ll keep to general examples of what works and what does not in the long and short.

1939-1984 (give or take)
Keynesian Economics:
Central Tenants:
Believes “Say’s Law” that supply creates its own demand
Argues that wages are “sticky” so they don’t like to move down
Keynesians tend to believe in a downturn that since wages won’t adjust (simple supply and demand, with the supply not shifting down to meet low demand at a lower point, meaning high un-employment but similar wages to pre-downturn)
Keynes believed that government spending could increase demand and create more jobs (this increases demand by increasing incomes, with flow-on effects).
Keynesians are interested in employment; inflation and economic growth tend to be secondary to employment (given that Keynesian economics was a child of the Depression).
At it’s simplest level it relies on this formula, GDP=Consumption+Government Spending+Investment+(Exports-Imports).
Keynesians tend to regard imports as bad, since they lower GDP.
Government spending is seen as a method of increasing GDP, and getting the economy through bad spots, so Keynesians tend to like capital works like new roads and new ports a lot.
Keynesians also tend to not see anything wrong with high taxes; they tend to believe that there is no such thing as wasted expenditure by government, which tends to lead to high taxes and a large means of control over the economy (government spending).
Keynesian economies tend to have lower growth, and higher inflation, the result of which can be stagflation, with the inflation fuelled by government spending (spending ones way out a downturn is not a good idea when one has inflation problems already), and growth crimped by transfer payments. These can and have combined to create a persistent climate of low growth and high inflation.
Keynesians also tend to live having control over “growth” industries, industries which drive growth… etc
 
How do the various Malthusian mechanics apply to desert nomads (I'm mostly trying to figure out the Bedouins and the like)? When and how does population growth occur in conditions of such scarcity?
 
The three assumptions:

1. Each societies has a birth rate, determined by customs regulating fertility, but increasing with material living standards,
2. The death rate in each society declines as living standards increase,
3. Material living standards decline as population increase.

So the birth rate; the fertility of nomadic tribes appears from my data, derived from modern day hunter-gather's to be quite variable, comparable to the pre 1790 Europe and Asia for the upper bounds, but for desert nomads I would be on the lower bounds, since there is a correlation between calories; living standards at there rawest and fertility. Assuming of course that it is fairly hard to obtain food from desert areas, custom wise I'm also led to believe that desert nomads tend to be quite "strict" with children in so far as infanticide etc.

So I think we can assume that the birth rate is quite low, and if it isn’t then it’s reasonably well regulated by the death rate. The death rate is lower amongst nomads than settled agrarian societies, however there is little redundancy built into nomad societies for lean times (no significant storage etc) so the death rate appears to spike at set periods, which should hypothetically keep things in balance over the long run.

Certainly the third assumption is born out, there can only be so many nomads in a given area, so any increase in material living standards is going to increase population and cause problems.

So what does this mean, personally I think that the nomad population is highly responsive to “good periods”, for instance periods of above average rains that allow more animals to be grazed and in turn increase the population and so on (tragedy of the commons playing here as well), and sudden shift away from the “good periods” is going to cause a lot of problems, you need to get rid of that unsustainable portion of your population somehow, invading others, raiding, starvation, disease etc are all possible conclusions, most likely in closely knit family groups and tribal groups is raiding others or invading the settled agrarian peoples.

Likewise the nomad population would be high responsive to bad times, there would be almost no means of a group of nomads surviving if the water table falls sufficiently that the wells, wadi’s and oasis are not working or being sporadic at best…

So a crash in the bad times, and a boom in the good times, with a fairly stationary population during the normal times adjusting relatively quickly to slight changes. It’s actually a black hole in Malthusian thought, there have been or two papers published on the subject that I’m aware of (from decent authors), Malthusian though is primarily aimed at settled agrarian societies, at least the bulk of the work. There have been attempts to modify the model to better suit nomadic groups (but these days’s those are kind of rare and the impetus to really care just isn’t there)… Economics is a science of the here and now; the past tends to be covered rather generally and with reference to what little data there is luckily Malthus was still alive when his model was still relevant and functioning in his homeland (even though that didn’t really last much more than maybe 20 years, some say it never worked while he was alive :p)

Hope that helps.
 
Okay then, how about the development of banking institutions in the 1st millennium BC or similar environments, and its prerequisites and effects (stat income and otherwise)? Yes, I am just throwing whatever I come up with at you here. ;)
 
Hmm.

There are different banking institutions with different aims, and different effects. For the sake of simplicity I'll divide them into categories (I haven't got access to all my books atm):

Mercantile (catering to Merchants)
Investment (investment driven)
Underwriting (insurance, specifically for shipping)
Agricultural (think micro credit/cash flow maintenance)
Exchanges (dealing in currency speculation and arbitrage)
Bond Markets (dealing in bonds to government)
and there's bound to be others.

Mercantile:

Are very possible, you would require a strong mercantile community. Just handling the arbitrage (middle man) side of things would tend to preclude against them. Probably by virtue of the added risk of just buying and on-selling goods. You would need to be a producer of something or preferably a few somethings which are not going to be to elastic in price (ie. changeable), things like grain, and other essentials would be a good base, but not necessary perceived need is probably also a strong motivator. The main problem with financial institutions of any stripe, is the lack of institutions, such as rule of law, property rights and other financial institutions and inventions which tend to assist banks immeasurably, like for instance fractional reserves (these banks would have low liabilities to asset rations, ie. they would keep a large % of cash on hand to cover any outstanding money owed to anyone). With a weak rule of law, the government and individuals might just rob a wealthy or successful bank, I'm aware that banks tended to keep a low profile for exactly that reason. Usury and lending is also frowned upon in every culture to a varying extent, typically even "good" historic states still passed bad legislation, the relative merits of the nations financial system was founded not on the positive merits of the governments but on the lack of bad merits.

Investment banks are possible, if you have a project which offers great returns but requires significant capital infusions, you would need to have a relatively scarcity of labour available for a taille style labour grab or some pressing reason not to conscript large tracts of your population to do something. Even then it isn't likely these would develop. There is little reason to invest large amounts of capital in something not when you can conscript labour.

Underwriting, is a strong possibility, its effects would give a significant advantage to whichever maritime commercial state had the strongest system, since it lessens the risk of catastrophic failure of a given merchant losing a ship. With what is essentially a safety net in place your merchants can take more risk and potentially return higher returns. It does however suffer significant problems, the math behind underwriting is primitive till a certain Dutchman revolutionized the insurance system. So there is limitations to its effectiveness, and its longevity as an institution because of the bad maths powering it and the corresponding risk. Sea based states would be the primary movers in this one, with regards to its usefulness for them and its requirement of large sums of capital which are normally only available in trade.

Agricultural banks or funds or whatever happened and granted a significant boon to farmers who had access to them. They allow farmers to hold onto produce for longer and reap higher prices by giving farmers the ability to have a constant cash flow (through borrowing) and also allow an improvement in the production methods of the farmers involved because of the increased ability to purchase new farming equipment and whatnot. Requires some sort of excess capital, a mature Empire with nowhere else to expand might certainly find itself engaging in this.

Exchange institutions are quite likely, they facilitate trades between currencies and in many cases act as middlemen for groups, they may also provide insurance and information. Tend to pop up on well frequented trade routes, and also tend to engage in rent seeking, ie. imposing monopolies and other anti-competitive behavior (secret knowledge brings corruption).

The last one is highly unlikely, in all but the most cash based, nations with a good record of fiscal prudence and with a strong rule of law. To achieve mass borrowing requires some degree of wealth to begin with and something to spend it on that will grant more wealth [there is a nasty habit in pre-industrial states of borrowing, driving up the price of borrowing by sucking up capital, needing to borrow more, repeat till a fiscal death spiral].

A general word: Land speculation is a natural consequence of capital accumulation in pre-industrial societies, not always, but the favored method of most states with to much capital to absorb (productively ie. to make more money) is to sit it in land... to much of that and the land value rises... and rises and rises and collapse. That has the potential to wipe out a great many people. I will stress that in some cases, foreign investment in a puppet or stable and friendly neighbor will stop this or if you have some way of diverting it to building more trading vessels [that carries its own problems].

Markets at this stage of history suffer from massive price discrepancies, so you can buy something and find out its massively overpriced where you bought it because you had nowhere else to compare it to. Markets are very unstable and don't work at all well except in the most stable nations. Even then they tend to implode on a regular basis and tend to destroy the good habits of nations...

Note: Anything suss is caused by a lack of sleep for the past week, a solid stint on the computer today from 7:45 when I reached work with only an hour and a half break total till 23:52. Today has been populated with a long day of pointless work and data entry and six solid pages of writing, with no sources :p
 
Introduction to Macroeconomics:

Context:

Macroeconomics deals with the economy as a whole. Macroeconomic sectors of the economy can typically simplified as, households, government and firms. The individual households of the country are lumped together and measured as whole, it is in this context of the aggregate economy that issues such as economic growth, unemployment, inflation, recession and others are used. Macroeconomists might be interested in the changes in prices of a set basket of goods, using them as a proxy for cost of living increases. This basket is a powerful tool in the hands of a macroeconomist since it allows a direct comparison of prices of goods between years, allowing any increases, inflation, or decreases, deflation to appear. If these are charted over a long period it becomes possible to extrapolate or predict the increases or decreases in prices of the basket for future years. Macroeconomists are constantly involved in measuring the health of the economy and providing useful and relevant advice to government, business and households amongst other things.

History:

The discipline of modern macro-economics began in 1776 with the publication of The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith. Smith described in detail the capitalist method, of free markets and competition which guided by an invisible hand provided for justice and equality through market mechanisms. Smith held that, it is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from the their regard to their own interest, in other words the self interest of the butcher, the brewer and the baker aligned with the hungry to produce food. Until the Great Depression this Classical School was the dominant force in economic thought. This would change with the publication of The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money in 1936 as a response to the perceived lack of solutions that Classical Economics had for the Great Depression. This school, Keynesianism would be the dominant school of economic thought through till the late seventies. Keynesianism stressed that government intervention in the market was desirable in order to remedy depressions the chief problem of which is unemployment. The perceived cause of unemployment was a lack of private spending in the economy which Keynes hoped to remedy by an active government priming the pump of the economy by increasing its spending to offset the fall in private spending. Other schools exist; Monetarists pay specific attention to the quantity theory of money, Austrians look at price signals and the Austrian business cycle, while Neo-Classicists have improved upon Smith’s original work and Neo-Keynesians work with an improved version of Keynesianism. There are other schools of thought in economics, and it would seem likely that the next big school of thought is being born in some distant campus as this author writes.

Mindset and Method:

Lionel Robbins provides perhaps the best definition of Economics, as a science which studies human behaviour as a relationship between ends and scarce means which have alternative uses. Economic is a social science because of the human aspect of its studies. Economic is different to a hard physical science, for instance chemistry or physics, because humans unlike elements or atoms do not react uniformly to the same stimuli all other things being equal. Humans when faced with the exactly the same situation, can choose differently, take for instance something as mundane as breakfast, insure everything physically is the same, the table, the chairs, the breakfast choices, now test a group of people. Do you expect to get the same results from all of them? Of course not, some will eat toast, others will have cereal, and still others will have nothing. Even the same individual may make a different choice on the same day! Physical scientists deal with things which when exposed to the same circumstances will respond the same, in contrast. Economists are therefore unable to predict with quite the same certainty of physical scientists, and are forced to rely on certe paribis, which is means to hold all other things equal. This is not as strict a burden as the physical scientists impose on themselves, and tends to only work at an aggregate level (there will always be some exceptions to rules but generally speaking they will hold). If the prices of two of exactly the same shoes are slightly different, the vast majority of people will buy the cheaper good, a small number will buy the more expensive good some might describe this as snobbery. Scarcity can be best summed up by the lyrics of the song, Yes, We Have No Banana’s,

"Yes, we have no bananas
We have-a no bananas today.
We've string beans, and onions
Cabbageses, and scallions,
And all sorts of fruit and say
We have an old fashioned to-mah-to
A Long Island po-tah-to
But yes, we have no bananas.
We have no bananas today."


In practice scarcity means that all economic goods are unable to satisfy everyone’s needs and desires. Desirable goods are goods which people desire, people do not usually want waste water, but people do desire high end cars. Economic goods are simply goods which are both scarce and desirable, they can range from the aforementioned high end cars of which only a limited number are made, in the hundreds of thousands which are purchased by customers after some quality of the car, to something as simple as water which is a weaker economic goods in that it is scarce in some regions and abundant in others, a desert and a large freshwater lake, and desirable to some but not to others, Bedouins values water greatly while University students seem to consume little of it in favour of other beverages for instance. Humans have unlimited wants, we are almost never satisfied, we are acquisitive by nature, such that once we acquire a car our thoughts might then immediately leap to dreams of owning a house.

Models:

Economists use these aggregate level observations to formulate models which are ways of testing, and determining possible outcomes of certain events. A simple model would be our shoe example, if we have two identical shoes with different prices intuitively we know that most people will buy the cheaper shoes. You can test this on yourself and your friends. There will be some exceptions, but broadly speaking the result will be the same. Since economists rely on certe paribis which is not an easy thing to do, given that people are themselves different economists rely on three important ideas that humans in conventional economic work under.

  • That they work for their own self interest;
  • That they act rationally in making decisions about themselves;
  • And that only keeping the most important variables in play will not sufficiently alter the result of the model.

Take our shoe example, if we hold everything the same we would need identical shops, next to each other, with the same look, and with everything exactly the same. Thinking about an exact mirror image of the two shops, with just different prices is a good way of going about it. Plainly in the real world this is difficult and unlikely to ever happen, look at two shoe shops of even the same chain and you will see that they have different configurations in terms of shelves and different locations not to mention different clientele!

With a model we can make assumptions to simplify our variables and make certe paribis easier to accommodate. We do know that broadly people act in their own self interest, people get up in the morning the world over and feed themselves generally so they don’t starve to death. So with this in mind we can be fairly sure that if people are after shoes, they will purchase the cheaper ones since they will be acting in their own self interest, in this case saving money. They will also be satisfying the rationality criteria, by buying the cheaper pair of identical shoes, showing they have exercised a sensible choice given the circumstances, some won’t but they will be a minority. We can also remove some variables from our model to make it easier, if we know that roughly the same group of people shop at this chain because it caters to women, who purchase this type of shoe, like the chains only three colours and have this size of feet. We can be definitely sure that what people had for breakfast will not interfere with their choice between exactly the same shoes with a different price. All of these could be wrong, for a small number of the overall cases, people might find that their cereal disagreed with them and go to the closer shop, we already know that some people don’t care about the cost of the good and might derive some other benefit from the purchase gloating perhaps, and we can be sure that sometimes men do indeed shop in ladies shoe stores. But on aggregate these deviations won’t matter all that much.

Of interest
http://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~hal/Papers/how.pdf

Resources and the 4 Factors:

Economic resources are by definition limited, since they are scare or limited to the extent of our wants which are unlimited. Goods and services are the two broad sub categories of resources. Goods are tangible, they are touchable, or kickable they represent things like food or clothing or cars. Services are intangible, they cannot be stored or transferred, or kicked, they are things like haircuts which cannot be transferred to another person or stored up in preparation of the need of another haircut.

These two sub categories form the human part of the 4 factors of production, which are comprised of land, labour, capital and entrepreneurship.

  • Land in an economic sense includes all natural resources. Scarcity in agricultural land is a prime example of the importance of land as a factor, and also the positive effects of an accumulation of capital, labour and entrepreneurship which will be discussed later.
  • Labour is a human element of the economy, and includes muscle power and brain power as well as all other skills, proficiencies or capabilities that humans have. Labour includes most professions, ranging from chemists, to office workers to farm hands.
  • Capital in an economic sense means all the non-human assistants for production, these include farming tools, factories, infrastructure and the like, a simple rule of thumb is that they are used to produce other goods.
  • Entrepreneurship allows for the facilitation of the division of labour and coordinates and organizes the other three factors.

Adam Smith in his The Wealth of Nations provides a strong example of the benefits of capital accumulation, entrepreneurship and the division of labour.

… the trade of the pinmaker; a workman not educated to this business… nor aquatinted with the use of the machinery employed in it… could scare, perhaps with his utmost industry, make one pin in a day and certainly could not make twenty. But in the way in which this business is now carried on, not only the whole work is a peculiar trade, but it is divided into a number of branches, of which the greater part of likewise peculiar trades. One man draws out the wire, another straights it, a third cuts it, a fourth points it, a fifth grinds it at the top for receiving the head; to make the head requires three distinct operations; to put it on is a peculiar business, to whiten the pin is another; it is even a trade itself to put them in the paper… [pin making] is in this way divide into about eighteen distinct operations, which, in some manufactories, are all preformed by distinct hands, though in others the same men will sometimes perform two or three of them. I have seen a small manufactory of this kind where ten men only were employed, and where some of them consequently preformed two or three distinct operations. But thought they were very poor, and therefore… [not] accommodated with the necessary machinery, they could, when they exerted themselves make among them upwards of twelve pounds of pins in a day. There are upwards of four thousand pins in a pound of pins… each person… might be considered as making four thousand eight hundred pins in a day. But if they had been wrought separately and without any of them having been educated to this peculiar business, they could certainly not each of them make have made twenty…

The division of labour between pin-makers increased the overall production of pins, as each worker specialised in some particular aspect of manufacture. Imagine for a moment if you wanted to make a computer, without the assistance of any division of labour, you would have to mine the ore to get the metal, heat it in a furnace, get it to just the right temperature, treat the metal and then actually figure out how to use it. Most if not all people reading this would not have the faintest idea about how to go about this task. For those who do claim the ability to do this, then this author challenges you to try without any assistance.

Land only plays a marginal role in the modern system as an economic driving force, resources are still important, but do not hold as much of a fascination as they did in the pre-industrial world. Early economists called physiocrats, believed that a nations wealth derived from its farmland. They held that all other forms of production were inferior to farming for the nation’s economic health; they did not see that industry or commerce could generate wealth.

Labour is the factor which was strongest before industrialisation, before the steam engine humans were limited the force they could harness to exert. William J. Bernstien’s, The Birth of Plenty provides an illustrative example of these practical limits in sustained horsepower in pre-steam societies;

Horsepower generator Sustained horsepower
Man and mechanical pump 0.06
Man and winch 0.08
Ass 0.20
Mule 0.39
Ox 0.52
Draft Horse 0.79

A single car can now out pull a whole team of draft horses in the long run, representing on a small level the increasing supremacy of capital accumulation and technological over just raw muscle and throwing bodies at a problem.

Capital in this example represents the technical equipment and specialist setup of the firm. This can range from the technical requirement of having ventilation to allow smoke to escape from the foundry, to having specialised grasping instruments to hold the pins still, vices.

Entrepreneurship brings these together, it is this guiding factor, that allows machinery to be used by productive workers and can source the necessary resources in order to keep that machinery and those workers producing. Without this factor, machinery would stand idle, and workers would be unemployed, and resources would be underutilized. Most people have some degree of entrepreneurial skill. People are capable of harnessing friends and family to work towards a common goal, for instance dinner.
 
I have to ask, why is it that we don't use traditional models of economics and have to go invent our own? If you are going to use a complicated system, it might at the very least be right...
 
Because we can't measure any of the inputs, it would little better than guesswork [horribly inaccurate without a tonne of data], and they are not suited for what we want them to do in most cases anyway. In most economic models do not measure the economy as a whole but focus on small things which is not what were interested in. I have worked on an economics system which uses a pre-existing model, but i've had to simplify it and run it of a single set of numbers [at that moment in time] instead of a long series, so the predictive powers of the model are good when combined with mod judgment on their own they are less than useful.

Comments and recommendations to my work are most welcome :) If there is something not right feel free to tell me.
 
Well, I'm not sure...

In NESes you do not need short term models, so we can toss those out.

You can use ISLM model for medium term, where price changes matter, but economic growth is assumed to be constant/given. This will also probably rarely be used since most NES turns are at least a year long, and in many cases more than that.

Which leaves us with only long term which needs to be modeled. Here we use the Solow-Swan model, since it is the easiest for our purposes and leave it at that.

Assume that L'(t)/L(t)=nL, you can change the parameter n as you wish for each country over time. So theoretically you could have L'(t)(i)/L(t)(i)=n(t)(i) where i is the country index. But since n is defined by a mod anyways, you can leave it out. Doesn't matter to us.

Similarly assume that technological progress takes the form A'(t)/A(t)=nA. Again, the parameter can be constant, or can be a function over time and different countries, as defined by the mod. And the decisions of players can impact these parameters for labor growth and technological growth.

Assume that output function has the form Y(t)=F[K(t),L(t)] and satisfies linear homogeneity and has positive but diminishing marginal products for both factors of production.

Further assume that is satisfies the Inada conditions.

Under our assumption of technological change we can re-write the output function as follows: Y(t)=F[Ak(t)K(t),Al(t)L(t)]. Obviously the function has to be Harrod neutral and Hicks neutral if you want it to behave well over time. The Cobb-Douglas production function is always used here because it is pretty much the only function that is Harrod, Hicks, and Solow neutral.

Here you can use the savings and investment identity if you want to go further than this. Assume that d indicates the depreciation of capital over time, and s is the propensity to save. Further, define y(t) as Y(t)/L(t), etc. to give us intensive forms for our variables, since obviously no steady state exists with respect to labor levels.

Then assume S(t)=sY(t) - savings identity
Y(t)=C(t)+I(t) - you can add government spending in the same way if you want later
I(t)=dK(t)+K'(t)

In intensive form you have a differential equation that describes the steady state in growth levels for you: k'(t)=sf(k(t))-(d+nL+nA)k(t)

Obviously in the steady state you have k*=sy*/(d+nL+nA), and output and capital growth at the same rate as the effective labor and effective capital inputs.

You can show that over time Y'(t)/Y(t)=nL+nA

Now, if you want to use Cobb-Douglas you can actually solve the differential equation, its not hard. No real reason to do it though, since you can get all the implications you need for capital accumulation, convergence, speed of adjustment, and fiscal policy-consumption effects without ever assuming the form of the production function.

You can of course use the Ramsey model, but then you have infinite integrals and estimations of discounted cashflows over time, which is way too messy for NESes.

So yeah. Don't invent the wheel if someone has already done it.
 
Long-term=year or more?
 
Long term = where shot-term price adjustments do not impact economic growth. Usually medium term is seen as 2 months - 2 years, and everything above two years is long term. The boundary is a little fuzzy, since they are modeling different things.

As long as you are willing to assume that price fluctuations and labor fluctuations will not impact economic growth, you can use it over whatever time horizon you wish. Realistically those conditions hold at about 2 years and longer periods.
 
Agreed on the ISLM, price changes in most NES's don't really matter and the model is unsuited for the longer term.

I was actually working on adapting the Solow-Swan model for NESing, but I didn't like the implications for the Mod (having a fair knowledge of the likely result of a NESing decision, and I guess the difficultly of defining intangible policy results). That was the model I was working on, I currently have a work in progress adaption with a few institutional things factored in to allow greater mod discretion. And also an allowance for blatant good or bad decisions.

Cobbs-Douglas I agree with, I was flirting with using it.

Ramsey = ewww.

Ignore my previous condescension I'm not a fun person early in my morning, basically I entertained the idea of using pure models, but discard using them unmodified solely because it would be difficult for the mods to know the likely implications of player decisions, I was also of the opinion that it reduced player discretion and mod discretion, unmodified. They are possibly also complex enough that they would be fairly difficult to work with.

EDIT: Screw price changes for NESing, they don't generally matter in what we do, its hard enough to find an economic collapse let alone a stab of inflation or deflation :p. Labour is in the same boat. Mod discretion would be enough.
 
Scarcity can be best summed up by the lyrics of the song, Yes, We Have No Banana’s,

"Yes, we have no bananas
We have-a no bananas today.
We've string beans, and onions
Cabbageses, and scallions,
And all sorts of fruit and say
We have an old fashioned to-mah-to
A Long Island po-tah-to
But yes, we have no bananas.
We have no bananas today."

As an economist-in-waiting, I am both amazed by how brilliant that is, and horrified that you've made economics accessible to the common man. :p

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, and I probably am, so I bow to Stormy's superiority, but I was taught that short-term was the period in which ceteris paribus could be reasonably assumed, while the long-term was when that assumption came unstuck and all other variables came unfixed and actually variable.

Having said that, Stormy's explanation appears substantially more reasonable.


Also, I'm rather curious, and this is less an economic question, since I'm well aware of the effects of severe inflation and moving up into hyperinflation, but I'm curious as to how those reading this thread feel such things would be modelled in NESing? Given the tendency of NESers to spend constantly with no regard to inflationary impact (something of which I am very, very guilty) and the general Keynesian leanings of any given NESer, I'd personally think it would be rather interesting to see a nation crippled by inflation, offering an incentive to control one's spending would completely change the game.

...Am I the only one who wants to see NESers struggling to spend wisely and deal with inflation? Or debt crises from the PSBR (Public Sector Borrowing Requirement, for those who don't know, which is essentially an annual addition to a nation's debt), or even attempting to deal with potential effects of a very, very extended Current Account Deficit or Surplus, the effects of which I'm rather fuzzy on.


Oh, also, in case you haven't realised, Fiscal Policy is my thing in economics.
 
Basically your right in the first part. In the construction of those models they use the classical dichotomy to ignore non-real variables (then again this is not my strength and hasn't been something I've studied or done anything with for quite awhile).

That probably stems from my enjoyment of Hayek etc, and my firm dislike of scientism in social sciences. Nassim Nicholas Taleb tends to sum up my beliefs rather beautifully in his The Black Swan (I would highly recommend it).

I personally think we should we should not attempt to model inflation and deflation, concretely as a portion of the model. NESer's by definition are Keynesian's, some of us stray away, but with the sheer economic totalitarianism of most NES's I don't think its possible to actually model an economy without the NESer feeling horrible bored. We have to much control (work in government those who have not and you figure out exactly how little control it has over the economy).

I would also note that just government spending is seldom the cause of massive inflation or at least significant inflation it tends to be a combination of things, with the government spending acting as the primary initial driver. But yeah a persistent surplus should be punished by rent seeking behavior, Dutch disease, and potentially other problems [educating people to be able to determine the likely result of things is the difficult part].

EDIT:

It's possible to stray away from command economics, only if your mod understands it or is lead towards it. North King gets high marks for allowing my Seshweay and Union to develop without much push or pull by the state. I setup the institutions, distributed the land in such a way to favor small landowners [in the best most fertile part of my Empire], setup a strong legal system to deal with contracts and property rights, and made use of the fact that at one stage I was down to relying on backwaters which were on marginal land, but were well placed for trade... so I influenced them towards increasing their trade capabilities.

It's just the difficulty of explaining what the likely result of having small-medium freeholders in a river delta might achieve in my case a proto-democracy, a strong rule of law, good property rights, and eventually overpopulation which led to an exodus from the homelands [for just abit of my Union].

Throw that kind of reasoning, ie. I want to set this land up for small landholders by granting title to them and you will not likely get a different result from carving it up for big landowners. You really have to lay out the logic behind possible consequences and even the logic to get there.

My first mission was and still is to educate people who are not doing economics up to a level where they can make informed decisions about economics issues. Models are great, but I see them becoming a fallback, you plug in values and don't understand anything except the end result... GDP=X you can't give a narrative or a plausible means of reaching X which was different from X last turn... we would just be substituting ignorance with ignorance with a nice framework.
 
But yeah a persistent surplus should be punished by rent seeking behavior, Dutch disease, and potentially other problems [educating people to be able to determine the likely result of things is the difficult part].
This, this, this: it is beautiful. :evil:
 
Oh, I'm aware that governments are rarely the sole cause of problematic levels of inflation, but given the rate at which NESer governments spend, one would not be too far wrong to assume that consumer spending would follow the same patern, which would cause serious inflation.

I suspect that while modelling inflation fully would rather bore NESers, as an occasional method by which to discourage a thousand year spending spree, it would be a handy mod excuse, and would likely lead to NESers using the most extreme historical methods for avoiding inflation, like monetary reform (i.e. introducing a new currency and refusing to recognise the former currency as legal tender) or a ridiculously sudden and ridiculously sharp decrease in the cash rate, to slow or stop the growth of the quantity of money. Which, let's face it, is going to entertain some people. Particularly if your solution to hyperinflation is to destroy some of your cash reserve.

At the very least, an attempt to model it even in the limited sense of a mod-directed warning that "inflation is growing significantly, and spending may need to be reined in" or that "your economy is currently afflicted with hyperinflation, good work on that one, you twit" would be an interesting experiment.
 
So what kind of hyperinflation would result from directing the nation's entire budget towards turning a merely sexy messiah into a very sexy one?

:p
 
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